Potential 3.5 build
02-22-2009, 02:05 PM
#1
You embarrass me.
Thread Starter
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Potential 3.5 build
Basically, I have an oil burning 3.5 which has led to a few other issues, and was looking to build a 3.5 to swap in. I don't have much experience with building them but I have a few questions.
Piston / Piston Ring options:
Was intrigued by the HR options that Travis posted or going full forged with other pistons available. I was doing some searching and found posts saying to go with oversized pistons (.020 is what i've most commonly found) and having the block machined to fit in order to essentially "clean" any imperfections in the cylinder. Has anyone had experience with getting their cylinders machined? How much does that job ballpark?
Piston rings are one of the reasons I'm siding with forged pistons and non-OEM rings while requiring a machine, since they would be better quality / coatings and have a clean slate to work with. Am I correct on this?
Valves / Valve Buckets:
I have a tapping noise to what I've received diagnosis to be my valve buckets failing, possibly due to low oil consumption. Is there an upgrade to this weak part, or is my only option to solve the oil problem at the start?
ECU / Tuning options:
I have a SAFC2 ready to go in for the basic A/F, but was wondering how far into a build does a piggyback become a requirement? Pistons? Rods? Cams?
Other parts?
What else should I consider? I've read that the HR oil pump is an upgrade, and saw the internal pics that Aaron provided, but anything else? Flywheel/Clutch and possibly 6th gen transmission w/ HLSD will be entering car at same time.
I'm doing this build for reliability, and any power gained is a bonus. Asking for advice from the All-Motor gurus!
Piston / Piston Ring options:
Was intrigued by the HR options that Travis posted or going full forged with other pistons available. I was doing some searching and found posts saying to go with oversized pistons (.020 is what i've most commonly found) and having the block machined to fit in order to essentially "clean" any imperfections in the cylinder. Has anyone had experience with getting their cylinders machined? How much does that job ballpark?
Piston rings are one of the reasons I'm siding with forged pistons and non-OEM rings while requiring a machine, since they would be better quality / coatings and have a clean slate to work with. Am I correct on this?
Valves / Valve Buckets:
I have a tapping noise to what I've received diagnosis to be my valve buckets failing, possibly due to low oil consumption. Is there an upgrade to this weak part, or is my only option to solve the oil problem at the start?
ECU / Tuning options:
I have a SAFC2 ready to go in for the basic A/F, but was wondering how far into a build does a piggyback become a requirement? Pistons? Rods? Cams?
Other parts?
What else should I consider? I've read that the HR oil pump is an upgrade, and saw the internal pics that Aaron provided, but anything else? Flywheel/Clutch and possibly 6th gen transmission w/ HLSD will be entering car at same time.
I'm doing this build for reliability, and any power gained is a bonus. Asking for advice from the All-Motor gurus!
02-22-2009, 04:31 PM
#3
You want reliability? Buy a Corolla.
If you go the HR route, you will probably need the HR ECU correct? So it can rev higher, or is it just putting in the stronger HR components? If it's an HR ECU, check to see what the 350z/G35 guys recommend for tuning.
If you are keeping the stock ecu, and change compression ratio, then you will NEED to change the AFR. Say you upped the compression with the stock AFR, you could potentially detonate due to the increased heat and pressure with and unchanged AFR.
What I've experienced with just a SAFC on cars, once you get your tune set, the ECU will try to adjust it back to "stock" settings, which will cause your tune to drift and potentially cause some issues (not so much with a rich environment, but if it went leaner... boom). Drifting tune's can be avoided by unplugging your O2 sensors so the car doesn't figure out what's going on and try to change it. But this WILL cause CEL's.
All I got so far... everybody please feel free to correct me if I'm misinformed.
If you go the HR route, you will probably need the HR ECU correct? So it can rev higher, or is it just putting in the stronger HR components? If it's an HR ECU, check to see what the 350z/G35 guys recommend for tuning.
If you are keeping the stock ecu, and change compression ratio, then you will NEED to change the AFR. Say you upped the compression with the stock AFR, you could potentially detonate due to the increased heat and pressure with and unchanged AFR.
What I've experienced with just a SAFC on cars, once you get your tune set, the ECU will try to adjust it back to "stock" settings, which will cause your tune to drift and potentially cause some issues (not so much with a rich environment, but if it went leaner... boom). Drifting tune's can be avoided by unplugging your O2 sensors so the car doesn't figure out what's going on and try to change it. But this WILL cause CEL's.
All I got so far... everybody please feel free to correct me if I'm misinformed.
02-22-2009, 05:15 PM
#4
I can't speak about your valve bucket problems, but...
When building up the whole motor, I would strengthen the hardware, like headbolts, etc. If you go with aftermarket rods, they usually include ARP hardware.
I would do bearings--at least OEM, just to freshen up the build. Also, and this isn't talked about too much, but the rod bearings need to be a certain clearance to avoid a lo oil pressure situation. You need to measure the crankshaft and then the large end of the rod and figure out what is in spec (see FSM). Too much clearance will relult in the low oil pressure. Too tight and you will get bearing failure.
I would do HR springs/retainers/shims. Especially if you are doing cams.
Don't forget head gaskets also and I'd throw in a rev-up oil pump.
I dono't disagree that machining the block is a bad idea. But it's costly and there are few shops that have the experience. You might luck out in your area. But, if you do bore it, you gain a bit of displacement. Not much, but every bit helps.
The good news is that all this HR hardare can be had through Dave B and relatively in expensive. Most people will agree that some of the rod/pistons are overkill for a maxima build, but they forget about the benefits of lowering the rotating mass. Just make sure the crank is balanced for it.
When building up the whole motor, I would strengthen the hardware, like headbolts, etc. If you go with aftermarket rods, they usually include ARP hardware.
I would do bearings--at least OEM, just to freshen up the build. Also, and this isn't talked about too much, but the rod bearings need to be a certain clearance to avoid a lo oil pressure situation. You need to measure the crankshaft and then the large end of the rod and figure out what is in spec (see FSM). Too much clearance will relult in the low oil pressure. Too tight and you will get bearing failure.
I would do HR springs/retainers/shims. Especially if you are doing cams.
Don't forget head gaskets also and I'd throw in a rev-up oil pump.
I dono't disagree that machining the block is a bad idea. But it's costly and there are few shops that have the experience. You might luck out in your area. But, if you do bore it, you gain a bit of displacement. Not much, but every bit helps.
The good news is that all this HR hardare can be had through Dave B and relatively in expensive. Most people will agree that some of the rod/pistons are overkill for a maxima build, but they forget about the benefits of lowering the rotating mass. Just make sure the crank is balanced for it.
02-22-2009, 09:18 PM
#6
So what can be attributed to the famous MAXIMA valve ticking. That would be the cam lobe hitting the follower (The Bucket, lol) with not enough oil coating the follower? or an excessive clearance issue within the valvetrain? Its a pretty normal noise though guys fro what I understand. A lot of cars with followers have a normal valve train noise.
02-24-2009, 08:43 AM
#7
You embarrass me.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (30)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Malden, MA
Posts: 5,309
I can't speak about your valve bucket problems, but...
When building up the whole motor, I would strengthen the hardware, like headbolts, etc. If you go with aftermarket rods, they usually include ARP hardware.
I would do bearings--at least OEM, just to freshen up the build. Also, and this isn't talked about too much, but the rod bearings need to be a certain clearance to avoid a lo oil pressure situation. You need to measure the crankshaft and then the large end of the rod and figure out what is in spec (see FSM). Too much clearance will relult in the low oil pressure. Too tight and you will get bearing failure.
I would do HR springs/retainers/shims. Especially if you are doing cams.
Don't forget head gaskets also and I'd throw in a rev-up oil pump.
I dono't disagree that machining the block is a bad idea. But it's costly and there are few shops that have the experience. You might luck out in your area. But, if you do bore it, you gain a bit of displacement. Not much, but every bit helps.
The good news is that all this HR hardare can be had through Dave B and relatively in expensive. Most people will agree that some of the rod/pistons are overkill for a maxima build, but they forget about the benefits of lowering the rotating mass. Just make sure the crank is balanced for it.
When building up the whole motor, I would strengthen the hardware, like headbolts, etc. If you go with aftermarket rods, they usually include ARP hardware.
I would do bearings--at least OEM, just to freshen up the build. Also, and this isn't talked about too much, but the rod bearings need to be a certain clearance to avoid a lo oil pressure situation. You need to measure the crankshaft and then the large end of the rod and figure out what is in spec (see FSM). Too much clearance will relult in the low oil pressure. Too tight and you will get bearing failure.
I would do HR springs/retainers/shims. Especially if you are doing cams.
Don't forget head gaskets also and I'd throw in a rev-up oil pump.
I dono't disagree that machining the block is a bad idea. But it's costly and there are few shops that have the experience. You might luck out in your area. But, if you do bore it, you gain a bit of displacement. Not much, but every bit helps.
The good news is that all this HR hardare can be had through Dave B and relatively in expensive. Most people will agree that some of the rod/pistons are overkill for a maxima build, but they forget about the benefits of lowering the rotating mass. Just make sure the crank is balanced for it.
I forgot about the bolts/studs. Yes, I put those on the list, and from what I've seen, if I do rods, they usually come with the rod bolts, correct?
I wasn't planning on the cams, but the HR pieces sound good. Will any of this change valve travel or anything like that?
Headgasket: OEM or upgraded?
For the pistons, I figured that would be the correct route since it would give me new walls to fit the pistons, right? If I stayed with stock ones, or even HRs, wouldn't I risk the piston ring oil consumption issue again?
So what can be attributed to the famous MAXIMA valve ticking. That would be the cam lobe hitting the follower (The Bucket, lol) with not enough oil coating the follower? or an excessive clearance issue within the valvetrain? Its a pretty normal noise though guys fro what I understand. A lot of cars with followers have a normal valve train noise.
02-26-2009, 07:58 PM
#8
You embarrass me.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (30)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Malden, MA
Posts: 5,309
Should I buy a new engine to work on, or use the one I have? If so, I found an 05 Maxima engine with 20k miles on it for a decent price locally. Will using the newer motor have any issues in fitting (not physically, but sensors or anything else like that) in a 2002?
02-27-2009, 07:24 AM
#9
Most everything is the same, but the 2002-2003 engines didn't have EGR and the 2004+ engines do have EGR passages in the UIM. It would be simple to put the original UIM on the newer engine.
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