Meth/Water Injection Install N/A
08-13-2009, 05:46 PM
#1
Meth/Water Injection Install N/A
OK so I don't know squat about this subject.
So I did a little research and although this is primarily for boosted cars it also has a place in the N/A world especially if you spray or want better mileage.
I got all the stuff from various places verses buying a KIT. I hate KITS. So now I have a pump, (100 psi) solenoid, nozzles and just have to find the time to install. Hopefully next week.
From what I read this will increase octane from 93-94 to 115 which will allow me to increase timing N/A as well as when spraying.
I will take pics and do a step by step install. Oh ya before I forget the tank will be the stock windshield canister which I don't use anymore. The front bumper will have to be removed to install the washer tank and pump.
More to follow next week.
So I did a little research and although this is primarily for boosted cars it also has a place in the N/A world especially if you spray or want better mileage.
I got all the stuff from various places verses buying a KIT. I hate KITS. So now I have a pump, (100 psi) solenoid, nozzles and just have to find the time to install. Hopefully next week.
From what I read this will increase octane from 93-94 to 115 which will allow me to increase timing N/A as well as when spraying.
I will take pics and do a step by step install. Oh ya before I forget the tank will be the stock windshield canister which I don't use anymore. The front bumper will have to be removed to install the washer tank and pump.
More to follow next week.
08-14-2009, 07:30 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: North Coast NSW, Australia
Posts: 217
You probably have it covered already but make sure you have the washer bottle located lower than the spray nozzle. Know of a guy who did this but mounted the washer bottle to his firewall. The washer bottle siphoned itself dry, dumping all the water into the inlet manifold, where it ran down the inlet runners... one of which had an open valve. Couldnt work out why his car would not start the next morning. Hydraulic locked the engine and bent valves EEK!
08-16-2009, 09:15 AM
#7
You probably have it covered already but make sure you have the washer bottle located lower than the spray nozzle. Know of a guy who did this but mounted the washer bottle to his firewall. The washer bottle siphoned itself dry, dumping all the water into the inlet manifold, where it ran down the inlet runners... one of which had an open valve. Couldnt work out why his car would not start the next morning. Hydraulic locked the engine and bent valves EEK!
08-16-2009, 10:55 AM
#8
Jime, make sure you use a good plastic container for the Meth, a friend of mine melted the washer fluid talk by using 100% VP Racing methanol... It was on a Turbo Eclipse tho..
still, same applies to Maximas..
also, you must make sure your tune compensates for the Meth, biggest issue is when you turn it on via switch... if it's alwas in, easy to compensate.. then agains that's why UTEC has the map switch button..
for N/A applications i beleive there's even a MAF signal adapter... increases meth intensity via direct increase of MAF Voltage..
still, same applies to Maximas..
also, you must make sure your tune compensates for the Meth, biggest issue is when you turn it on via switch... if it's alwas in, easy to compensate.. then agains that's why UTEC has the map switch button..
for N/A applications i beleive there's even a MAF signal adapter... increases meth intensity via direct increase of MAF Voltage..
08-17-2009, 04:48 AM
#9
why would you need a MAF signal adapter. Just add after the MAF before throttle body right? How will water injection compare to meth injection? I mean can you post time differences at the track and maybe some vids of your runs and install. I allways hear about how people try out Meth kits and what not but never actually see them used or installed. Would be nice to see this done. Good thread btw.
08-17-2009, 02:24 PM
#11
Today was as hot as Hades. My P/S was leaking again on fri night so i cut the belt so I could race and today fixed the leak which was a cut hose from touching the p/s pulley. Its now rerouted, protected and shielded and hopefully trouble free.
Tomorrow I will pull the nose off and install the windshield washer container in its stock location along with the pump and solenoid. Pics to follow.
I did hookup the pump to one of the nozzles today to check its misting capabilities, pretty nice. I will see if I can video to show exactly what it looks like. Very fine mist.
Tomorrow I will pull the nose off and install the windshield washer container in its stock location along with the pump and solenoid. Pics to follow.
I did hookup the pump to one of the nozzles today to check its misting capabilities, pretty nice. I will see if I can video to show exactly what it looks like. Very fine mist.
08-18-2009, 12:58 PM
#13
I did a meth kit install on my friends 5.5 gen last summer. We used a kit that referenced MAF voltage to determine the spray on/off and it was also progressive. We did experience gains not as much as with a boosted car but there was deffinately an edge over the competition.
08-18-2009, 01:02 PM
#14
pic of my install
also, I will be running a digital fuel pressure gauge in line to monitor the spray patten. I dont want to be tuned for the meth and then have a surprise if the pump doesnt turn on one day, with the gauge I can see that its spraying.
also, I will be running a digital fuel pressure gauge in line to monitor the spray patten. I dont want to be tuned for the meth and then have a surprise if the pump doesnt turn on one day, with the gauge I can see that its spraying.
Last edited by secondtonone317; 08-18-2009 at 01:08 PM.
08-18-2009, 01:03 PM
#15
I did a meth kit install on my friends 5.5 gen last summer. We used a kit that referenced MAF voltage to determine the spray on/off and it was also progressive. We did experience gains not as much as with a boosted car but there was deffinately an edge over the competition.
Was this on an NA car or spray n20? did you guys get to dyno to see how and where the gains were? or just butt dyno?
08-18-2009, 03:12 PM
#16
Jim, thats a good idea to use the meth. Iv been using it for years and like it alot. I basically installed mine exactly how secondtonone has on his picture. I suggest you put the solenoid before the TB, no real need to have in the manifold, then you have to deal with vac sucking the fluid out (although you should have a checkvalve in the line).
I think for n/a, lot of advanced timing, you should be good by starting off with a 3GPH nozzle (this is at 150psi from the pump).
A rough estimate into finding what is the best flow you need for nozzle:
total injector cc x dutycycle% x 20%, so basically if you have 290's, it would be (1740cc x .60)x.20 = 208.8cc, thats 3.3GPH (its just 63 cc per 1 gph *remember this if you dont already, you going to always need it*)
You are also going to have to re-tune ofcourse, since your adding more fuel its going to get around 1 point richer (well depending on how much meth ur spraying).
I think for n/a, lot of advanced timing, you should be good by starting off with a 3GPH nozzle (this is at 150psi from the pump).
A rough estimate into finding what is the best flow you need for nozzle:
total injector cc x dutycycle% x 20%, so basically if you have 290's, it would be (1740cc x .60)x.20 = 208.8cc, thats 3.3GPH (its just 63 cc per 1 gph *remember this if you dont already, you going to always need it*)
You are also going to have to re-tune ofcourse, since your adding more fuel its going to get around 1 point richer (well depending on how much meth ur spraying).
Last edited by streetzlegend; 08-18-2009 at 03:17 PM.
Like I said, I'm sure he'll share new info when he's ready. Jime's never been the type to leave threads hanging.
08-26-2009, 08:37 AM
#19
Ok I am rethinking this project. Since this is going to be used for both N/A and nitrous it isn't quite black and white. Why inject extra fuel into the nitrous nozzle then add meth/water through a separate nozzle and then pull fuel to compensate for the meth being injected?
So I am thinking about injecting the meth through the nitrous/fuel nozzle. I realize that it takes 2.2 times as much meth to equal the gasoline but that just means a larger fuel jet and I have plenty of those.
For N/A I may still try using the nitrous nozzle but will probably end up using the nozzles I purchased for the meth. Not sure how it will atomize though the nitrous jet with no nitrous to break it up. Just have to see how it looks visually to determine if it will work.
My biggest problem now is the pump. My pump is a demand pump and it should be a bypass model. But I got it for free so I am going to make it work. The demand model cycles the pump on and off to meet the demand so its not suitable. I have bypassed the demand circuit but now the pressure is over 250 psi so I have to get some sort of pressure regulator or bleed some of the pressure back to the tank. I may try and old fpr I have first and see how that works.
Before I install the pump I want to determine exactly what the final layout will be. Easier to try stuff on the bench vs after installing.
Anyone got any ideas to make this work better?
So I am thinking about injecting the meth through the nitrous/fuel nozzle. I realize that it takes 2.2 times as much meth to equal the gasoline but that just means a larger fuel jet and I have plenty of those.
For N/A I may still try using the nitrous nozzle but will probably end up using the nozzles I purchased for the meth. Not sure how it will atomize though the nitrous jet with no nitrous to break it up. Just have to see how it looks visually to determine if it will work.
My biggest problem now is the pump. My pump is a demand pump and it should be a bypass model. But I got it for free so I am going to make it work. The demand model cycles the pump on and off to meet the demand so its not suitable. I have bypassed the demand circuit but now the pressure is over 250 psi so I have to get some sort of pressure regulator or bleed some of the pressure back to the tank. I may try and old fpr I have first and see how that works.
Before I install the pump I want to determine exactly what the final layout will be. Easier to try stuff on the bench vs after installing.
Anyone got any ideas to make this work better?
09-01-2009, 06:45 AM
#20
I have decided to buy a Devilsown kit. 250 psi pump capable of 100% meth and a controller, starts at 15% and ramps up to 100%. Still planning on feeding through the nitrous nozzle for spraying but using the controller and nozzle mounted on the tb for n/a.
Hoping to have it installed and tuned for the next race on the 13th Sep.
Hoping to have it installed and tuned for the next race on the 13th Sep.
09-04-2009, 06:16 PM
#21
Well I have run into a couple of snags.
First i found out that the fuel solenoids have to be retrofitted to flow alcohol.
Second they will not open with 200 psi.
So now I am thinking about just spraying nitrous through the nozzles and injecting the meth through a separate nozzle. Its getting more complicated all the time but i will come up with some solution for the race next weekend. My meth kit is supposed to arrive on Tuesday so I have 4 or 5 days to play with it before Sunday.
First i found out that the fuel solenoids have to be retrofitted to flow alcohol.
Second they will not open with 200 psi.
So now I am thinking about just spraying nitrous through the nozzles and injecting the meth through a separate nozzle. Its getting more complicated all the time but i will come up with some solution for the race next weekend. My meth kit is supposed to arrive on Tuesday so I have 4 or 5 days to play with it before Sunday.
09-05-2009, 05:47 AM
#23
Have found a couple of solenoid valves that work at 250 psi+. http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=11
Ordered 2 and will use them in place of the NX fuel solenoids. N/A will use the regular nozzle supplied with the kit or one of the 7 nozzles I got from Mcmaster-Carr.
Probably won't get these before next weekend but I will work something out to run next weekend.
Ordered 2 and will use them in place of the NX fuel solenoids. N/A will use the regular nozzle supplied with the kit or one of the 7 nozzles I got from Mcmaster-Carr.
Probably won't get these before next weekend but I will work something out to run next weekend.
09-05-2009, 01:19 PM
#24
Have found a couple of solenoid valves that work at 250 psi+. http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=11
Ordered 2 and will use them in place of the NX fuel solenoids. N/A will use the regular nozzle supplied with the kit or one of the 7 nozzles I got from Mcmaster-Carr.
Probably won't get these before next weekend but I will work something out to run next weekend.
Ordered 2 and will use them in place of the NX fuel solenoids. N/A will use the regular nozzle supplied with the kit or one of the 7 nozzles I got from Mcmaster-Carr.
Probably won't get these before next weekend but I will work something out to run next weekend.
09-06-2009, 07:24 AM
#25
Interesting. How exactly does this work though, I know the pump i have and most commonly used is a pulse type pump which gets certain pressure based on how fast it turns on and off. How does it work using solenoids? Will your pump be constantly running with a return style system, and regulator to control the pressure?
The new solenoids will be connected in where the NX fuel solenoids are and will be activated by the nitrous system. I want to have it setup so that it injects through the meth nozzle for N/A and then when I activate the nitrous it injects the meth through the nitrous nozzles. The hardest part will be getting the proper sized fuel jetting because it will take over twice as much meth as gasoline to achieve the proper a/f.
Just sent an email to NX asking for methanol jetting for 50-75-100 and 125 shots.
Last edited by Jime; 09-06-2009 at 10:24 AM.
09-08-2009, 05:51 PM
#26
good stuff...
check out snow performance if u have not already, they have been one of the pioneers of bringing this back into popularity...
dont know too much about this yet but have been researching a little and almost committed to buying a kit, I did not realize all of the complexities involved, while running meth and nitrous, and put this off until later....
thanks for the research jime...
check out snow performance if u have not already, they have been one of the pioneers of bringing this back into popularity...
dont know too much about this yet but have been researching a little and almost committed to buying a kit, I did not realize all of the complexities involved, while running meth and nitrous, and put this off until later....
thanks for the research jime...
09-08-2009, 06:44 PM
#27
good stuff...
check out snow performance if u have not already, they have been one of the pioneers of bringing this back into popularity...
dont know too much about this yet but have been researching a little and almost committed to buying a kit, I did not realize all of the complexities involved, while running meth and nitrous, and put this off until later....
thanks for the research jime...
check out snow performance if u have not already, they have been one of the pioneers of bringing this back into popularity...
dont know too much about this yet but have been researching a little and almost committed to buying a kit, I did not realize all of the complexities involved, while running meth and nitrous, and put this off until later....
thanks for the research jime...
09-10-2009, 11:54 AM
#32
When spraying, the N/A setup will continue to supply meth/water in same amount. The nitrous fuel solenoids will also be supplied with meth/water by T'ing in to the meth pump output. Fuel nozzle sizes have to be increased to make up for the reduced btu value of the methanol. When spraying, the controller will be setup to reach 100% on launch to ensure proper fuel ratio for the nitrous.
Last edited by Jime; 09-10-2009 at 12:37 PM.
09-10-2009, 09:43 PM
#35
^^ lmao! so true..
wholly $hIt jime.. thats insane man.. very innovative approach for a NA/nitrous setup.. but wouldnt locating the meth injection farther away from the TB (not before MAF) help lower intake air temps and allow for more timing advance? In theory having a meth injection at 12 inches before your TB will damn near freeze the intake pipe (for a turbo application). I would assume N/A wouldnt be as cold but still would benefit more if moved farther from the TB (closer to 12 inches).. either way this is bad-@$$! lol enjoy
also what are you doing for a failsafe if you ever run out of meth/water? just curious
wholly $hIt jime.. thats insane man.. very innovative approach for a NA/nitrous setup.. but wouldnt locating the meth injection farther away from the TB (not before MAF) help lower intake air temps and allow for more timing advance? In theory having a meth injection at 12 inches before your TB will damn near freeze the intake pipe (for a turbo application). I would assume N/A wouldnt be as cold but still would benefit more if moved farther from the TB (closer to 12 inches).. either way this is bad-@$$! lol enjoy
also what are you doing for a failsafe if you ever run out of meth/water? just curious
Last edited by 97Maximus; 09-10-2009 at 09:52 PM.
09-11-2009, 05:44 AM
#36
^^ lmao! so true..
wholly $hIt jime.. thats insane man.. very innovative approach for a NA/nitrous setup.. but wouldnt locating the meth injection farther away from the TB (not before MAF) help lower intake air temps and allow for more timing advance? In theory having a meth injection at 12 inches before your TB will damn near freeze the intake pipe (for a turbo application). I would assume N/A wouldnt be as cold but still would benefit more if moved farther from the TB (closer to 12 inches).. either way this is bad-@$$! lol enjoy
also what are you doing for a failsafe if you ever run out of meth/water? just curious
wholly $hIt jime.. thats insane man.. very innovative approach for a NA/nitrous setup.. but wouldnt locating the meth injection farther away from the TB (not before MAF) help lower intake air temps and allow for more timing advance? In theory having a meth injection at 12 inches before your TB will damn near freeze the intake pipe (for a turbo application). I would assume N/A wouldnt be as cold but still would benefit more if moved farther from the TB (closer to 12 inches).. either way this is bad-@$$! lol enjoy
also what are you doing for a failsafe if you ever run out of meth/water? just curious
So i changed the wiring this morning and it works fine.I put the smallest nozzle in and set it via maf voltage to lower than idle maf voltage and voila it came on. a/f dropped momentarily to 12 then came back to normal.
97Maximus I don't think I need to move nozzle further away, even after a couple of seconds the intake fogged over and was very cold to the touch and that is using smallest nozzle at 15% opening.
Pump is controlled via PWM from the controller so very fast switching on/off to control flow.
As soon as I get this put back together I am off to the city to get 5 gal of methanol from Pro Racing Fuels for $4 a gallon.
My fuel solenoids aren't here yet so if they don't come I will just run the meth on the engine for this weekends race and install the solenoids when they come.
I haven't had this much fun since the first time I had sex. I remember that distinctly because it was dark, I was a bit afraid and I was all alone.
09-11-2009, 05:50 PM
#38
There is no way to measure the decrease in air temps due to the meth injection so I am going to put a sensor in the intake manifold after the TB. Just found an old sensor from the 3.0 which I am going to install and put it on a switch so I can swap between them.
09-11-2009, 06:41 PM
#40
My e-gas control keeps the throttle at approx 20% even at full throttle until I launch and then it immediately goes to 100% and at the same time activates the nitrous. I did a writeup on this 2 or 3 years ago, much more effective than a 2 step for auto's.