SSIM improvements... just theorizing
02-14-2011, 07:22 PM
#81
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Someone on the 350z forums gave me the "next" idea for intake manifold design. Using a 350z lower plenum for the round ports and making a side feed log style manifold that is actually rounded with custom runners and velocity stacks instead of reusing the stock runners. It would be both more and less work, and probably equal out... albeit at a much higher price point for materials.
It wouldn't be the same design as this, but the construction would go similarly. We also wouldn't need a sharp elbow bend with it... http://my350z.com/forum/intake-exhau...-de-motor.html
02-14-2011, 07:30 PM
#82
here is what i dont really like already about the side feed..... is would seem as though the 1st couple runners would be robbing the rest of runners from air as the are force to take the left over air causing an uneven vacuum of air between the runners... now the build and idea looks good except the feed pipe placement to me.... ill still prefer an elbow design.. the one you are working on seems good enough...
02-14-2011, 07:46 PM
#83
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
here is what i dont really like already about the side feed..... is would seem as though the 1st couple runners would be robbing the rest of runners from air as the are force to take the left over air causing an uneven vacuum of air between the runners... now the build and idea looks good except the feed pipe placement to me.... ill still prefer an elbow design.. the one you are working on seems good enough...
As has been evidenced by lots of much more hardcore V6 forums, the absolute best setup for a V6 is twin plenums, each serving 3 cylinders that are at least 180 degrees out of phase with each other (not cylinders that fire one right after another). That requires either a common plenum between the two separate plenums, greatly increasing complication and chance of uneven flow, or 2 separate TBs. Notice that all of the new nissan RWD V6 engines now use twin plenums/TBs/intakes. It's not just for looks
I agree that the one I have built *should* do great. I could have sacrificed some volume to get more rounding on the back edges, but I felt the most important parts to be rounded are already rounded and properly direct airflow to the runners. Since this was mostly an exercise in testing increased volume and elbow size, I wanted to make the difference as much as possible. Most reputable sources that could tell me anything about plenum volume said that for a car with a "stock" TB, you want to make up for it with a bigger plenum. Anywhere from 125-150% of engine displacement. This one pretty closely calculated comes out to around 120-135% of engine displacement...
holy crap... /end wall of text.
02-14-2011, 08:00 PM
#84
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
...the absolute best setup for a V6 is twin plenums, each serving 3 cylinders that are at least 180 degrees out of phase with each other (not cylinders that fire one right after another). Notice that all of the new nissan RWD V6 engines now use twin plenums/TBs/intakes. It's not just for looks
Last edited by sparks03max; 02-14-2011 at 08:02 PM.
02-14-2011, 08:01 PM
#85
02-14-2011, 08:03 PM
#86
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Not at all. Would just require a Haltech or other standalone that can support TBs from other vehicles or multiple TBs. (and tuning by something other than a MAF)
Last edited by sparks03max; 02-14-2011 at 08:12 PM.
02-15-2011, 08:01 AM
#87
For the next project, I'm probably going to make aluminum underbody trays for the engine bay and rear bumper area (like krazy6 did with tape) also. If the prototypes look good enough, may actually see if the community wants to buy them. If they work well, would be looking at gas mileage and trap speed increases
and if you knock that internally trumpeted one, ...may need to make two lol...quanto para uno?
serious....
02-15-2011, 08:26 AM
#88
Sparks... if im not mistaken, you just described a manifold that my buddy did for his V6 probe GT.
Imagine the IM looking like a 2 pronged fork. He currently has one throttle body feeding each bank seperately, but is planning on rigging up a twin TB setup to feed each bank seperately. He showed me when I dropped off the PFTB to him to make an adaper plate for me. Now he wants twin PFTBs feeding his custom plenum. lol
Imagine the IM looking like a 2 pronged fork. He currently has one throttle body feeding each bank seperately, but is planning on rigging up a twin TB setup to feed each bank seperately. He showed me when I dropped off the PFTB to him to make an adaper plate for me. Now he wants twin PFTBs feeding his custom plenum. lol
02-15-2011, 01:43 PM
#89
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Sparks... if im not mistaken, you just described a manifold that my buddy did for his V6 probe GT.
Imagine the IM looking like a 2 pronged fork. He currently has one throttle body feeding each bank seperately, but is planning on rigging up a twin TB setup to feed each bank seperately. He showed me when I dropped off the PFTB to him to make an adaper plate for me. Now he wants twin PFTBs feeding his custom plenum. lol
Imagine the IM looking like a 2 pronged fork. He currently has one throttle body feeding each bank seperately, but is planning on rigging up a twin TB setup to feed each bank seperately. He showed me when I dropped off the PFTB to him to make an adaper plate for me. Now he wants twin PFTBs feeding his custom plenum. lol
02-15-2011, 02:00 PM
#91
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Total cost of all parts (everything is ready to finish it tomorrow) ran me around $120... Not including labor of course. Probably around 60 hours of labor in it up to this point. Of course it was a prototype and everything was done by scratch with lots of extra time spent on design.
02-15-2011, 02:07 PM
#92
Yeah, it's a similar design. The kinetix doesn't match the LIM ports for **** and neither the Kinetix or SFR match this thing for volume or the 3.5" elbow. Guess we'll find out if those things matter or not!
Total cost of all parts (everything is ready to finish it tomorrow) ran me around $120... Not including labor of course. Probably around 60 hours of labor in it up to this point. Of course it was a prototype and everything was done by scratch with lots of extra time spent on design.
Total cost of all parts (everything is ready to finish it tomorrow) ran me around $120... Not including labor of course. Probably around 60 hours of labor in it up to this point. Of course it was a prototype and everything was done by scratch with lots of extra time spent on design.
02-15-2011, 02:12 PM
#93
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
I sure as hell hope so! I love
!!! I was holding out for 272ish duration cams, but ended up with a set of BC S2s for a steal... So now that I've got the 3.5" intake, cams, elbow, and manifold... All I need is to piece together valvesprings/shims/retainers, oil pump, rod bolts, 6th gen valve covers, and some other assorted junk (including V-manage) then spend a long weekend or two installing it all.
Last edited by sparks03max; 02-15-2011 at 02:17 PM.
02-15-2011, 02:15 PM
#94
fixed
I sure as hell hope so! I love!!! I was holding out for 272ish duration cams, but ended up with a set of BC S2s for a steal... So now that I've got the 3.5" intake, elbow, and manifold... All I need is to piece together valvesprings/shims/retainers, oil pump, rod bolts, 6th gen valve covers, and some other assorted junk (including V-manage) then spend a long weekend or two installing it all.
I sure as hell hope so! I love
!!! I was holding out for 272ish duration cams, but ended up with a set of BC S2s for a steal... So now that I've got the 3.5" intake, elbow, and manifold... All I need is to piece together valvesprings/shims/retainers, oil pump, rod bolts, 6th gen valve covers, and some other assorted junk (including V-manage) then spend a long weekend or two installing it all.
02-15-2011, 02:27 PM
#95
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Way too much of it, perhaps. Think I've read through every NA build thread on my350z 2-3 time plus tons of other non platform specific stuff trying to avoid any idiosyncrasies of max.org or my350z. For example... the whole 3" won't make any more than 2.5" thing for the last few years up until the cattman prototype dynos. Other resources would have already damn near confirmed gains.
02-15-2011, 02:36 PM
#96
Way too much of it, perhaps. Think I've read through every NA build thread on my350z 2-3 time plus tons of other non platform specific stuff trying to avoid any idiosyncrasies of max.org or my350z. For example... the whole 3" won't make any more than 2.5" thing for the last few years up until the cattman prototype dynos. Other resources would have already damn near confirmed gains.
but dont get me started on that B.S....
02-15-2011, 06:18 PM
#98
Seems to me if you ran an independent dual throttle body setup: with 1 throttle body feeding 3 shorter separate runners per bank, you would have a shorter runner length but would have more airflow because of the two ~60-70mm throttle bodies. I guess this would result in more horsepower but less torque. Probably pretty good throttle response too.
02-16-2011, 02:34 AM
#100
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Well It's finished "for now" and installed. Took a short vid and some pics... I only tested it with the 3" intake and stock MAF so far, but as you see from the 3rd picture... the 3.5" intake is built and ready to use.
Starting around 3500rpms in second gear up to 95ish mph in 4th.
Tire chirp into 4th gear while lift shifting with a passenger and all my tools in the car!?
Starting around 3500rpms in second gear up to 95ish mph in 4th.
Tire chirp into 4th gear while lift shifting with a passenger and all my tools in the car!?
Last edited by sparks03max; 02-16-2011 at 02:40 AM.
02-16-2011, 02:37 AM
#101
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Initial "butt dyno" results say slightly slower throttle response (due to bigger volume, expected) and some combination of a low end loss or top end gain. It feels/sounds pretty beastly from 4500 on to the 6900 redline I have in the video, but that could just be placebo effect combined with low end losses.
If I was being optimistic, I would say that this IM has moved the torque peak around 600-700RPMs higher and will result in higher power from 5500-7000.
If I was being optimistic, I would say that this IM has moved the torque peak around 600-700RPMs higher and will result in higher power from 5500-7000.
02-16-2011, 07:44 AM
#106
In my experience, though limited w/aftermarket IM's, a larger MAF will help alleviate the low end throttle response if set-up correctly, but being as this is you sparks, you probably saw me coming with comment from miles away.
02-16-2011, 07:57 AM
#107
02-16-2011, 08:25 AM
#108
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Tentatively Monday, considering I can get my tuning done, especially for the big MAF. Was having some issues with UTI last night 
I used an aftermarket battery tray and made brackets. The video was made with the super short 3" one and stock MAF. That final picture is actually of the 3.5" MAF and intake, but won't be tested until today.
Yeah I think the larger intake/MAF will go right along with this setup and give good results.
Yeah I think the larger intake/MAF will go right along with this setup and give good results.
02-16-2011, 11:35 AM
#110
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Got it idling and low throttle revving smoothly with the 3.5" intake/MAF. It was initially idling around 18-19:1 and after adding around 7-8% fuel, it stabilized around 14.7.
Laptop is charging for a while then I'll go get a quick and dirty WOT tune.
Laptop is charging for a while then I'll go get a quick and dirty WOT tune.
02-16-2011, 12:09 PM
#111
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Was going to go to the dyno tonight if they were running it, but no-go after calling the shop. Sometime between today and Monday, though...
02-16-2011, 04:06 PM
#115
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
I owned a VAFCII for a few months and sold it.
Got a decent/rough tune together for the 3.5" intake/MAF and new IM together. The map was actually very similar to my 3" map, except around 5-8% more fuel overall, and comparatively to the average I had to pull fuel in the low end and add fuel up top.
Got on it real good 1-3rd gear on the way home from tuning and it feels really nice. Of course with the wonders of a butt dyno, that good feel could just be lots of lowend/midrange loss.
Various comments about the plenum, sound, etc:
-When you let off the gas to shift to the next gear, it hangs at that RPM for maybe .5 of a second until the giant plenum is empty of air. Not a big deal, but something to get used to.
-Slightly sluggish initial throttle response, not as much immediate "jerk" when you slam the gas around peak torque. Instead of immediately picking up, you hear a loud whooshing sound (plenum filling up) and it takes off like normal. The delay is less than 1/2 a second, but definitely detectable.
-Instead of the whistling I got with the vias deleted stocker, I am getting a metallic "whoosh" type of noise. Kind of like the sound you get when blowing across the top of an empty beer bottle.
-It really feels like peak torque is 4500-4800ish rpms now from the way it picks up. However, from 4500-7000 or so, it sounds 10x more awesome than the stock manifold... so I may be getting some placebo effect.
Got a decent/rough tune together for the 3.5" intake/MAF and new IM together. The map was actually very similar to my 3" map, except around 5-8% more fuel overall, and comparatively to the average I had to pull fuel in the low end and add fuel up top.
Got on it real good 1-3rd gear on the way home from tuning and it feels really nice. Of course with the wonders of a butt dyno, that good feel could just be lots of lowend/midrange loss.
Various comments about the plenum, sound, etc:
-When you let off the gas to shift to the next gear, it hangs at that RPM for maybe .5 of a second until the giant plenum is empty of air. Not a big deal, but something to get used to.
-Slightly sluggish initial throttle response, not as much immediate "jerk" when you slam the gas around peak torque. Instead of immediately picking up, you hear a loud whooshing sound (plenum filling up) and it takes off like normal. The delay is less than 1/2 a second, but definitely detectable.
-Instead of the whistling I got with the vias deleted stocker, I am getting a metallic "whoosh" type of noise. Kind of like the sound you get when blowing across the top of an empty beer bottle.
-It really feels like peak torque is 4500-4800ish rpms now from the way it picks up. However, from 4500-7000 or so, it sounds 10x more awesome than the stock manifold... so I may be getting some placebo effect.
02-16-2011, 04:08 PM
#116
DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS MEMBER - OWES PEOPLE MONEY
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 3,468
Pictures in the light of day.
Keep in mind if this makes power I will be doing a very nice job of cleaning up the outside; grind down any nasty looking welds, polish everything, cut off extraneous metal used in fab work etc... and having anything that is bare metal coated with thermal dispersant (basically looks flat black).
Keep in mind if this makes power I will be doing a very nice job of cleaning up the outside; grind down any nasty looking welds, polish everything, cut off extraneous metal used in fab work etc... and having anything that is bare metal coated with thermal dispersant (basically looks flat black).
Last edited by sparks03max; 02-16-2011 at 04:11 PM.
02-16-2011, 04:56 PM
#117
