Aackshun's VQ35DE Swap Plans...
04-23-2012, 01:20 PM
#564
04-23-2012, 01:45 PM
#566
At the rate things are going, the red car won't have much of an exhaust though, looks like just headers
04-23-2012, 03:13 PM
#570
I hated the freaking sport mode on the E46 M3!
feels jerky and like complete a$$.
if you want similar effects you can get that jet chip or whatever. like a year ago someone put it on their car and loved it (was it even rochester?)
I like my cable that when i put 10% throttle on the pedal, it's 10% plate opening. And to know when 100% is 100%, makes so much more for a natural feel, IMHO
feels jerky and like complete a$$.
if you want similar effects you can get that jet chip or whatever. like a year ago someone put it on their car and loved it (was it even rochester?)
I like my cable that when i put 10% throttle on the pedal, it's 10% plate opening. And to know when 100% is 100%, makes so much more for a natural feel, IMHO
Feeling jerky means you pressed the accelerator too hard, it takes adjustment to get use to that kind of response.
04-23-2012, 03:59 PM
#572
.6mm needs to be cut off of the pistons.
What is with all of this silly e-gas talk? Never once in all 15 useless pages have I even mentioned the silly idea of me having that in my car, the only time I ever talked about e-gas is in the sense that I'm glad I do not have it and that I will never ever use it, I have hated E-throttle in every form and fashion in every vehicle I have been in, almost as much as I hate automatics.
Maybe crusher is just bored.
What is with all of this silly e-gas talk? Never once in all 15 useless pages have I even mentioned the silly idea of me having that in my car, the only time I ever talked about e-gas is in the sense that I'm glad I do not have it and that I will never ever use it, I have hated E-throttle in every form and fashion in every vehicle I have been in, almost as much as I hate automatics.
Maybe crusher is just bored.
04-23-2012, 04:03 PM
#573
.6mm needs to be cut off of the pistons.
What is with all of this silly e-gas talk? Never once in all 15 useless pages have I even mentioned the silly idea of me having that in my car, the only time I ever talked about e-gas is in the sense that I'm glad I do not have it and that I will never ever use it, I have hated E-throttle in every form and fashion in every vehicle I have been in, almost as much as I hate automatics.
Maybe crusher is just bored.
What is with all of this silly e-gas talk? Never once in all 15 useless pages have I even mentioned the silly idea of me having that in my car, the only time I ever talked about e-gas is in the sense that I'm glad I do not have it and that I will never ever use it, I have hated E-throttle in every form and fashion in every vehicle I have been in, almost as much as I hate automatics.
Maybe crusher is just bored.
04-23-2012, 06:40 PM
#574
I've never seen anything more overANALyzed in my life.
And a thinner HG would keep the compression up (or maybe even increase it?) but would heating and cooling be a problem? Also piston clearances are to worry too...
Heating and cooling difference between 0.01" thickness gaskets is unmeasurable. Compression loss from 0.01" more gasket vs. fly cutting the pistons might be 0.05-0.1. IE 11.6 down to 11.55 or 11.50. It's NOT significant.
Part of the reason why the throttle response seems slower with a stock 6spd 3.5 is the heavy @ss flywheel.
04-23-2012, 06:41 PM
#575
04-23-2012, 08:18 PM
#576
Are you $hitting me? Are you spamming your own thread? These are MLS gaskets and the metal themselves and are theoretically stronger than the block. Head gaskets are only a weak point in a motor in that they have a tendency to lose sealing because of age, overheating, detonation, etc.
I've never seen anything more overANALyzed in my life.
Lol, head gaskets are NOT thermal insulators and we're talking about 0.01" here, not 12."
And a thinner HG would keep the compression up (or maybe even increase it?) but would heating and cooling be a problem? Also piston clearances are to worry too...
Heating and cooling difference between 0.01" thickness gaskets is unmeasurable. Compression loss from 0.01" more gasket vs. fly cutting the pistons might be 0.05-0.1. IE 11.6 down to 11.55 or 11.50. It's NOT significant.
I can dig it, I'm just gonna do stock HG w/ a piston fly cut.
Throttle response has almost nothing to do with R/S ratio. The cons to both oversquare and undersquare engines have been minimized with newer tech like variable valve timing, lighter and stronger materials, fuel injection, and better combustion chamber design.
Part of the reason why the throttle response seems slower with a stock 6spd 3.5 is the heavy @ss flywheel.
I'm not basing it on the 3.5 only I'm basing this on the B18, F22, SR20's I've driven, I've always based on how much quicker the VQ30 revs compared to the motors were because of the short stroke is.
I've never seen anything more overANALyzed in my life.
Lol, head gaskets are NOT thermal insulators and we're talking about 0.01" here, not 12."
And a thinner HG would keep the compression up (or maybe even increase it?) but would heating and cooling be a problem? Also piston clearances are to worry too...
Heating and cooling difference between 0.01" thickness gaskets is unmeasurable. Compression loss from 0.01" more gasket vs. fly cutting the pistons might be 0.05-0.1. IE 11.6 down to 11.55 or 11.50. It's NOT significant.
I can dig it, I'm just gonna do stock HG w/ a piston fly cut.
Throttle response has almost nothing to do with R/S ratio. The cons to both oversquare and undersquare engines have been minimized with newer tech like variable valve timing, lighter and stronger materials, fuel injection, and better combustion chamber design.
Part of the reason why the throttle response seems slower with a stock 6spd 3.5 is the heavy @ss flywheel.
I'm not basing it on the 3.5 only I'm basing this on the B18, F22, SR20's I've driven, I've always based on how much quicker the VQ30 revs compared to the motors were because of the short stroke is.
I feel comfortable enough with my original plan of buying 3.0 OS pistons and having them flycut w/ stock HG.
But that's bottom end stuff... First are these damn heads gotta have those worked on....
04-23-2012, 08:25 PM
#578
04-23-2012, 09:19 PM
#579
Woops looks like le chat is out of le bag.....
The pistons have to be fly cut correct? I don't want to sacrifice any compression or make the block weaker by getting a thicker head gasket, there is potential for this motor seeing a 100 shot..... I also don't what to cut the pistons... But the pistons aren't bishes so I figured it'd be safer to cut the pistons instead of introducing a weak point by getting a thick HG....
Or hell I could cut the pistons more and get a thinner HG.....
Pros and Cons on a thicker or thinner hg?? This car is going to see weekend road coursing as how the 3.0 died the first time around....
I imagine a thicker HG would keep temps down because it spaces out the block from the heads but it also introduces a weak point into the motor which I do not want either...
And a thinner HG would keep the compression up (or maybe even increase it?) but would heating and cooling be a problem? Also piston clearances are to worry too...
As for your second paragraph.... Man that'd be too long of a rod for my liking, long strokes affects the motors ability to rev IIRC and I <3 the way the VQ30 responds to the throttle, even w/ the 3.5 it's noticeably slower (It could be the egas though).
The pistons have to be fly cut correct? I don't want to sacrifice any compression or make the block weaker by getting a thicker head gasket, there is potential for this motor seeing a 100 shot..... I also don't what to cut the pistons... But the pistons aren't bishes so I figured it'd be safer to cut the pistons instead of introducing a weak point by getting a thick HG....
Or hell I could cut the pistons more and get a thinner HG.....
Pros and Cons on a thicker or thinner hg?? This car is going to see weekend road coursing as how the 3.0 died the first time around....
I imagine a thicker HG would keep temps down because it spaces out the block from the heads but it also introduces a weak point into the motor which I do not want either...
And a thinner HG would keep the compression up (or maybe even increase it?) but would heating and cooling be a problem? Also piston clearances are to worry too...
As for your second paragraph.... Man that'd be too long of a rod for my liking, long strokes affects the motors ability to rev IIRC and I <3 the way the VQ30 responds to the throttle, even w/ the 3.5 it's noticeably slower (It could be the egas though).
A factory OEM head gasket on a decked block and heads should be sufficent and still retain proper valve timing between the cylinder heads. If piston tops are flycut flat and sit flat at TDC static compression ratio would be around 10.4 with a 0.04" thick head gasket. If you want to be brave not fly cutting the piston tops they will occupy the space of the head gasket and will give a 11.3 compression ratio with a 0.04" head gasket, not sure if that will survive for a long time like that...However you have to worry about valve clearences, as you have raised the piston height but will flycut off some or all of the valve relief areas. IIRC the VQ30 piston is slightly dished downward. Make sure the pistons have enough relief space for the valves with whatever aftermarket cams you are going to run with this setup.
As far as over heating on the road course I don't see how you managed to bake the last motor. I warped the head gaskets on the OEM motor in my '96 down at Maxus '05 but that was due to the DEK manifold swap, 100 degree temps, and crusted up stock radiator. Try running a better rad and improve the ducting around the front bumper to the radiator with coroplast or thin aluminum sheeting to force the air through the radiator. Also an engine oil cooler helps to keep temps down and increases oil capacity. I've done dozens of track days on this DEK engine swap with the Griffin rad and my engine still put down more power than last time on a recent dyno run.
That VQ38 engine was just theoretical, not practical as it would require a new custom block to be made.
Anyways so the important question to ask... How is this VQ33 project with this extra machine work going to be cheaper than just swapping in a junkyard VQ35 block/heads with VQ30 timing and SSIM?
Last edited by 98SEBlackMax; 04-23-2012 at 09:51 PM.
04-23-2012, 10:32 PM
#580
SR20DEN made some convincing post that the thicker gasket can affect the cam timing a bit, very slightly but still affecting it, rather if it's a big deal or not I'd rather not find out after assembling the motor.
I feel comfortable enough with my original plan of buying 3.0 OS pistons and having them flycut w/ stock HG.
But that's bottom end stuff... First are these damn heads gotta have those worked on....
I feel comfortable enough with my original plan of buying 3.0 OS pistons and having them flycut w/ stock HG.
But that's bottom end stuff... First are these damn heads gotta have those worked on....
Last edited by Weimar Ben; 04-23-2012 at 10:38 PM.
04-24-2012, 06:49 AM
#581
Yes you would have to get the vq30 pistons flycut 0.60 ~ 0.70 mm as the piston top to center pin spacing is slightly different between the VQ30 and VQ35 pistons and using the VQ35 crank and rods mucks that up. Unless you like the VQ30 pistons to smack into the quench pads of the cylinder heads (maybe). A factory OEM head gasket on a decked block and heads should be sufficent and still retain proper valve timing between the cylinder heads. If piston tops are flycut flat and sit flat at TDC static compression ratio would be around 10.4 with a 0.04" thick head gasket. If you want to be brave not fly cutting the piston tops they will occupy the space of the head gasket and will give a 11.3 compression ratio with a 0.04" head gasket, not sure if that will survive for a long time like that...
However you have to worry about valve clearences, as you have raised the piston height but will flycut off some or all of the valve relief areas. IIRC the VQ30 piston is slightly dished downward. Make sure the pistons have enough relief space for the valves with whatever aftermarket cams you are going to run with this setup.
As far as over heating on the road course I don't see how you managed to bake the last motor. I warped the head gaskets on the OEM motor in my '96 down at Maxus '05 but that was due to the DEK manifold swap, 100 degree temps, and crusted up stock radiator. Try running a better rad and improve the ducting around the front bumper to the radiator with coroplast or thin aluminum sheeting to force the air through the radiator. Also an engine oil cooler helps to keep temps down and increases oil capacity. I've done dozens of track days on this DEK engine swap with the Griffin rad and my engine still put down more power than last time on a recent dyno run.
That VQ38 engine was just theoretical, not practical as it would require a new custom block to be made.
Anyways so the important question to ask... How is this VQ33 project with this extra machine work going to be cheaper than just swapping in a junkyard VQ35 block/heads with VQ30 timing and SSIM?
A factory OEM head gasket on a decked block and heads should be sufficent and still retain proper valve timing between the cylinder heads. If piston tops are flycut flat and sit flat at TDC static compression ratio would be around 10.4 with a 0.04" thick head gasket. If you want to be brave not fly cutting the piston tops they will occupy the space of the head gasket and will give a 11.3 compression ratio with a 0.04" head gasket, not sure if that will survive for a long time like that...However you have to worry about valve clearences, as you have raised the piston height but will flycut off some or all of the valve relief areas. IIRC the VQ30 piston is slightly dished downward. Make sure the pistons have enough relief space for the valves with whatever aftermarket cams you are going to run with this setup.
As far as over heating on the road course I don't see how you managed to bake the last motor. I warped the head gaskets on the OEM motor in my '96 down at Maxus '05 but that was due to the DEK manifold swap, 100 degree temps, and crusted up stock radiator. Try running a better rad and improve the ducting around the front bumper to the radiator with coroplast or thin aluminum sheeting to force the air through the radiator. Also an engine oil cooler helps to keep temps down and increases oil capacity. I've done dozens of track days on this DEK engine swap with the Griffin rad and my engine still put down more power than last time on a recent dyno run.
That VQ38 engine was just theoretical, not practical as it would require a new custom block to be made.
Anyways so the important question to ask... How is this VQ33 project with this extra machine work going to be cheaper than just swapping in a junkyard VQ35 block/heads with VQ30 timing and SSIM?
04-24-2012, 07:16 AM
#582
Yes, it can affect timing too on OHC engines, but +0.01" won't affect it either way very much. OTOH, you could get a .040" head gasket and mill the heads down .010" and then timing wouldn't be affected and you'd be assured of completely flat heads as well. The water jackets around the piston bores look all crusty. I wouldn't be surprised if the heads were warped a bit.
This thicker gasket stuff.... I am going to assume I will just be using the VQ35 gasket for this??? The extra width in the bore size won't matter???
I can not find any thicker gaskets w/ the 93mm bore
Yes you would have to get the vq30 pistons flycut 0.60 ~ 0.70 mm as the piston top to center pin spacing is slightly different between the VQ30 and VQ35 pistons and using the VQ35 crank and rods mucks that up. Unless you like the VQ30 pistons to smack into the quench pads of the cylinder heads (maybe). A factory OEM head gasket on a decked block and heads should be sufficent and still retain proper valve timing between the cylinder heads. If piston tops are flycut flat and sit flat at TDC static compression ratio would be around 10.4 with a 0.04" thick head gasket. If you want to be brave not fly cutting the piston tops they will occupy the space of the head gasket and will give a 11.3 compression ratio with a 0.04" head gasket, not sure if that will survive for a long time like that...
I was aiming for high 10s in compression.... like 10.8....
We'll see how close we get after the head gets finished being worked on.
However you have to worry about valve clearences, as you have raised the piston height but will flycut off some or all of the valve relief areas. IIRC the VQ30 piston is slightly dished downward. Make sure the pistons have enough relief space for the valves with whatever aftermarket cams you are going to run with this setup.
As of now OEM 3.5 cams will be what I'm running unless I come into another deal on cams.
As far as over heating on the road course I don't see how you managed to bake the last motor. I warped the head gaskets on the OEM motor in my '96 down at Maxus '05 but that was due to the DEK manifold swap, 100 degree temps, and crusted up stock radiator. Try running a better rad and improve the ducting around the front bumper to the radiator with coroplast or thin aluminum sheeting to force the air through the radiator. Also an engine oil cooler helps to keep temps down and increases oil capacity. I've done dozens of track days on this DEK engine swap with the Griffin rad and my engine still put down more power than last time on a recent dyno run.
I have a new radiator, and I will be using a 3.5 oil cooler also with this motor.
Anyways so the important question to ask... How is this VQ33 project with this extra machine work going to be cheaper than just swapping in a junkyard VQ35 block/heads with VQ30 timing and SSIM?
A factory OEM head gasket on a decked block and heads should be sufficent and still retain proper valve timing between the cylinder heads. If piston tops are flycut flat and sit flat at TDC static compression ratio would be around 10.4 with a 0.04" thick head gasket. If you want to be brave not fly cutting the piston tops they will occupy the space of the head gasket and will give a 11.3 compression ratio with a 0.04" head gasket, not sure if that will survive for a long time like that...I was aiming for high 10s in compression.... like 10.8....
We'll see how close we get after the head gets finished being worked on.
However you have to worry about valve clearences, as you have raised the piston height but will flycut off some or all of the valve relief areas. IIRC the VQ30 piston is slightly dished downward. Make sure the pistons have enough relief space for the valves with whatever aftermarket cams you are going to run with this setup.
As of now OEM 3.5 cams will be what I'm running unless I come into another deal on cams.
As far as over heating on the road course I don't see how you managed to bake the last motor. I warped the head gaskets on the OEM motor in my '96 down at Maxus '05 but that was due to the DEK manifold swap, 100 degree temps, and crusted up stock radiator. Try running a better rad and improve the ducting around the front bumper to the radiator with coroplast or thin aluminum sheeting to force the air through the radiator. Also an engine oil cooler helps to keep temps down and increases oil capacity. I've done dozens of track days on this DEK engine swap with the Griffin rad and my engine still put down more power than last time on a recent dyno run.
I have a new radiator, and I will be using a 3.5 oil cooler also with this motor.
Anyways so the important question to ask... How is this VQ33 project with this extra machine work going to be cheaper than just swapping in a junkyard VQ35 block/heads with VQ30 timing and SSIM?
This is what im thinking. By the time all is said and done you are better off with a complete VQ35 swap. If he wants extra cooling toss a HR headgasket+a Rev-up oil pump so it can withstand accidental over revs. Even with these insane goals of his he is going to need a much better flowing head than the VQ30's.
VQ35 + Cams = 1500
VQ33 = $800 and I have a brand fckng new motor.
I'm leaving out the tuning because either build will need it because of the Q45 additions to it....
04-24-2012, 07:27 AM
#583
what cams are you going to be using in this motor? because you can just toss in a set of Rev-ups on a 3.5 and be fine.
04-24-2012, 07:32 AM
#584
This is what im thinking. By the time all is said and done you are better off with a complete VQ35 swap. If he wants extra cooling toss a HR headgasket+a Rev-up oil pump so it can withstand accidental over revs. Even with these insane goals of his he is going to need a much better flowing head than the VQ30's.
the whole point was to maintain as much of the 3.0 platform as possible. he was actually going to be doing a more basic version of my build but decided the 3.3 would be more beneficial to his torque goals. if it were just about the money, he'd be cheaping out like i am, haha
04-24-2012, 07:40 AM
#585
he routinely abuses his car and engine (which is why i wouldn't let him "rent" my transmission, lol). it's been proven that the 3.0 is just a much sturdier engine, the quench design on the 3.0 heads is much more efficient and therefore less prone to detonation (it gets hot here and that motor will be tortured, both of these on top of a raised CR), etc
the whole point was to maintain as much of the 3.0 platform as possible. he was actually going to be doing a more basic version of my build but decided the 3.3 would be more beneficial to his torque goals. if it were just about the money, he'd be cheaping out like i am, haha
the whole point was to maintain as much of the 3.0 platform as possible. he was actually going to be doing a more basic version of my build but decided the 3.3 would be more beneficial to his torque goals. if it were just about the money, he'd be cheaping out like i am, haha
04-24-2012, 08:35 AM
#586
Then the rev-ups will go in this build.
3.5 + Rev Up Cams = $900
3.3 Build = $800 and the fact that it's a fresh motor.....
It's questionable as to which would make more power at that point in time and for $100 less I would go with the newer motor.... Which I know it's whole history and every oil change it's had (None and none
)I dont know if i would call the 3.0 a sturdier engine. It has a little bit of a stronger bottom end. And he is swapping the recognized weak point of the 3.5 into the 3.0 and raising the compression. I would be a little more worried about throwing a rod and the 3.5 rod bolts. Detonation is really down to your tune.
OEM 3.5HR Main Bolts
OEM 3.0DE Head bolts
ARP Rod Bolts
Last edited by aackshun; 04-24-2012 at 08:42 AM.
04-24-2012, 09:13 AM
#587
OEM 3.5 unless I get another deal on some rev-ups again.
Then the rev-ups will go in this build.
3.5 + Rev Up Cams = $900
3.3 Build = $800 and the fact that it's a fresh motor.....
It's questionable as to which would make more power at that point in time and for $100 less I would go with the newer motor.... Which I know it's whole history and every oil change it's had (None and none)
The rods aren't the weak point it's the bolts, which I'm going with ARP.
OEM 3.5HR Main Bolts
OEM 3.0DE Head bolts
ARP Rod Bolts
Then the rev-ups will go in this build.
3.5 + Rev Up Cams = $900
3.3 Build = $800 and the fact that it's a fresh motor.....
It's questionable as to which would make more power at that point in time and for $100 less I would go with the newer motor.... Which I know it's whole history and every oil change it's had (None and none
)The rods aren't the weak point it's the bolts, which I'm going with ARP.
OEM 3.5HR Main Bolts
OEM 3.0DE Head bolts
ARP Rod Bolts
You doing all new valve train and etc. or just bottom end?
Also, why not use the HR head bolts as well? Their not that $$.
04-24-2012, 09:19 AM
#589
OEM 3.5 unless I get another deal on some rev-ups again.
Then the rev-ups will go in this build.
3.5 + Rev Up Cams = $900
3.3 Build = $800 and the fact that it's a fresh motor.....
It's questionable as to which would make more power at that point in time and for $100 less I would go with the newer motor.... Which I know it's whole history and every oil change it's had (None and none)
The rods aren't the weak point it's the bolts, which I'm going with ARP.
OEM 3.5HR Main Bolts
OEM 3.0DE Head bolts
ARP Rod Bolts
Then the rev-ups will go in this build.
3.5 + Rev Up Cams = $900
3.3 Build = $800 and the fact that it's a fresh motor.....
It's questionable as to which would make more power at that point in time and for $100 less I would go with the newer motor.... Which I know it's whole history and every oil change it's had (None and none
)The rods aren't the weak point it's the bolts, which I'm going with ARP.
OEM 3.5HR Main Bolts
OEM 3.0DE Head bolts
ARP Rod Bolts
BS&trolling aside, thats what i would honestly do if i were you, a 3.5 with rev-up cams, ARP bolts, HR headgasket+supporting modifications, rev-up oil pump and an oil cooler.
04-24-2012, 09:21 AM
#591
The machine work that will occur so far on the list is....
Heads:
Port Matched to 3.5 LIM
Redecked head (cause of teh warpage)
Bottom End:
Pistons Flycut .6mm
Sleeves bored out .02mm for 3.0 OS pistons
Bottom end re-balanced.
I'm getting st0000pid prices on these OEM parts btw, courtesy looks silly high compared to what I'm getting wholesale.
Sure I'd get HR head bolts too for the fun of it.
Looks to be a $.30c bolt a difference, so I'll get em
Last edited by aackshun; 04-24-2012 at 09:56 AM.
04-24-2012, 01:41 PM
#593
this equals a 3.2 motor with 8.8:1 CR. good for boost but not for NA powaaaaah
04-24-2012, 03:54 PM
#594
A dream for a race-caw but not my daily race-caw.
That build may happen one day depending on what kind of chassis I run into.... (If I can get a L31 Altima for cheap this is happenin).
Another crazy pipe dream was to drop super high comp pistons in the motor while destroking it..... so I can rev it to the moon.....
Last edited by aackshun; 04-24-2012 at 03:58 PM.
04-24-2012, 05:08 PM
#596
