MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

Finally decided to upgrade my system....
http://www.arcaudio.com/arc/navigation/cxl4150prodp.htm

Heard Don's (pearl96max) Accord with this amp runnin' his components/rears
and I literally shyt myself.....had to buy it....the most clear and sparkly sounds
out of those HEX's i've evere heard-out of a stock Navi/HU/no EQ- Absolutey
no distortion whatsoever.(THD 0.005!) and >2000 damping factor

Any of you have any experience with them? Any suggestions on the components I should run on it?

jmax

I have that same amp. And a couple other ARC's. They are nice but to be honest they sound the same as pretty much every amp I have ever heard. Don't confuse higher level settings with clearer sound. It's the oldest speaker and amp sales tactic on the planet. Stock headunit with LOC typically has a higher signal voltage for the amp. At least if it is a decent quality LOC, 9.5 volts RMS and output impedance around 50 ohms or less seems common. Compare that to an expensive receiver with 4-5 volts RMS output.

DJ Kontakt

iTrader: (3)

i have a great little arc amp, its the one on the top of the page bannered across.

GREAT little amp!!

I hate to be selling it

but if it doesnt sell, its mine for good!

PAPA SMURF

yeah Manny....when u deal with Don-u are only getting strictly "tier 1" stuff

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

correction....he's running Phoenix Gold TI Elites as components- just switched'm

jmax

These tiers must be in a 3rd world country. Don doesn't sell much that is crud, but a long way from the top of the line.

Pretty much every car audio amp on the market is overpriced at least 100 to 200 percent. Used is the best way to purchase amps.

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

......I've heard plenty D5 and D7 amps to know what sounds good...other than
McIntosh......dont know what they can be compared to....
.....this particular amp blows them(DA's /Eclipses) away in clarity......so I'm sold on it...cant wait!

Might have to stick to Arc components.....or Rainbows....to go with Arc coaxes(rear fill)...

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

PAPA SMURF

have you bought from Don to comment? and I prefer new and will continue to buy that way

jmax

Your warranty on a used product is the same as Don's warranty. But going used you can get the product for about 25 - 50% of the price he charges. I buy new if the product is brand new on the market. Otherwise I go used.

A $200 amp that puts out 400 watts clean RMS sounds the same as a $2000 amp with the same amount of clean power. The other items in the signal chain have much greater affect on the sound quality. Never confuse quality with quantity. When I suggested to Don to look into ARC audio at least two years ago he was uninterested. If you think you can hear a difference between two amps hook them both up to the same power supply and match the input levels. Unless there is internal processing or an inherently bad amp, they will sound the same. In a huge system with 2-3 thousand RMS watts you likely only average about 100 watts musical output, or less. The rest is headroom for transients. I have heard a 15 inch sealed box sub at 99 dB with a single watt of input power. 99 dB is not ear shattering but it is loud enough to cause permanent hearing loss. And plenty loud to cover road noise. That was an inefficient sub. Mids and tweets are much more efficient. Ported boxes are much more efficient.

Don't be fooled by a sales pitch into paying top dollar for something that is no better than other products that were sold 10-20 years ago. There are frequent discussions on audio boards regarding the significance of what you expect to hear. Seriously, tell a friend that you just got a new amp or new speakers and tell them that they sound awesome. Then let them listen to your awesome "new" system. I'll bet you they agreee that it sounds better. I beleive auditory memory is only between a few seconds and a few minutes in duration. In this situation experience comes in handy.

PAPA SMURF

so jmax you are saying that my current alpine amp is JUST AS GOOD as a $1000 PG or Arc or rainbow amp??? really??


well then your logic will dictate this situation. I sell you a Hyundai Sonata and tell you it is as good if not better than your nissan maxima-you are gonna believe me???

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

used old amp.....its like comparing a G4 vs a Pentium 1...

Jmax.....i've gone through my share of amps and I know quality when I hear it.....matter of fact I heard three complete systems today....none which compared
to just the Arc runnin just components (no subs) on a stock HU

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

i heard a phoenix gold amp (125x4 running MB quartz all around and DA subs) off a Pioneer DVD flip- and the CXL4150 running components and rear fills sounded louder- clearer-warmer and no distortion at all in high levels---theres no comparison..

jmax

Sorry PAPA SMURF, you must be a

You are confused. Or you didn't read what I wrote. I indicated that they would sound the same. I would put my alpine against my PG Ti for SQ, you won't hear a difference. That's why I sold the PG, used. If you want drive over to my house. We'll hook up a D7, an ARC, an Alpine, MTX, and anything you bring along. All the amps will be 50 to 100 watts RMS per channel. You will not hear a difference if the levels are properly matched. We can use a 90 amp power supply, a 185 amp alternator, and a huge car battery or power cap to ensure the voltage is stable. But a battery charger and battery will be sufficient for this test.

There are other things to look at when deciding on an amp. Power supply isolation, power supply caps, the load they can push and remain stable, input and output connection quality, crossovers if you need them. There are things far more important than the name. If you look at the ARC amp even casually you will notice there are no air vents and an almost useless heat sink. Class AB Amps are typically 50 - 60 % efficient. That means that 40-50 percent of the power is converted to heat.

How does a vehicles performance relate to the sound of an amplifier. WIth vehicles there is a direct correlation between the engine, drivetrain, wheels, tires, suspension, and the road.

Stop listening with your eyes, go turn on some music.

We can also throw a couple Adcom home amps into the test, but they'll violate the power rule. We could bridge the ARC for a fairer comparison to the Adcom and use a Larger D7 to compare it.

Pearl96Max

iTrader: (151)

I would like to know what the first comment was supposed to mean... Anyone on here or general customers that had a problem with a product was replaced promptly. I do recall you had a problem with an amp an you had an offer to either have the piece or a new amp.

Whens the last time a 400 watt amp was $200 producing pure clean power?

There was no sales pitch involved here...And as most on here can confirm I dont push or pitch anything. I may make a suggestion and the rest is up to them. Manny, Smurf, have you guys been "pushed" or "pitched" into anything?

--Don

--Don

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

I never saw or heard of Arc audio untill after I heard it....so there's no point there....and efficiency
is the reason why this amp is being purchased-
along with the fact that its microprocessor controlled- you cant say that about any of the amps you mentioned-

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

[qoute-jmax]"A $200 amp that puts out 400 watts clean RMS sounds the same as a $2000 amp with the same amount of clean power."

if you truly believe that you should be working for PYRAMID /PYLE....

PAPA SMURF

I was held at gunpoint and was told to buy DA or else...

and I am sticking to that story


but actually I am quite pleased with my DA components-I doubt the polk audios or infinity kappas woulda given me the same result

slickrick

iTrader: (12)

200 wats is 200 watts but if its not good wats then its bs. i hooked a garbage crunch amp years ago to my subs and i thought it was good, i hooked up an mtx amp which was rated at half the watts of the crunch and it was a cleaner osund. people told me without saying... "doesnt it sound better now" so im not buying into the bs therories around here.

jmax

I think the question was about the difference in sound of different amps. I'm doing my best not to bring up your non existant return or refund policy so do your best not to push me into posting the whole truth. And Don, I can pass a full security background check for any position in this country becuase I don't make up stories or alter facts to suit my purposes.

Any of you guys saying I am crazy, take the amp test. It has a 100% record for proof that humans can't hear the difference between amps.

Pearl96Max

iTrader: (151)

If you have a problem with me deal with me. Whether you want it personally,via phone or email. Your the one that brought this here not me. Deal with it directly or leave it be. Plain and simple.

--Don

jmax

Oh boy, that "microprocessor control" must be really special. Good thing you can hear it in that amp.

Here's another amp that puts that in it's specs, http://www.kenwoodusa.com/product/pr...productId=2426


Here is some reading you all should do. There are a lot more on the autosound 2000 web site, but a couple of the links were down. I highly recommend the full Tech Brief to anyone seriously interested in good sound in a car. It can be purchased from http://davidnavone.com/


http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimate...1;t=021942;p=1
http://www.autosound2000.com/detail....ODUCT_ID=A2424
http://www.autosound2000.com/detail....ODUCT_ID=A2570

jmax

Don, I'm not bringing it. But if I need to I can and will. We both know the facts, you may not remember them as well as I. I just reread some of the emails I recieved from you discussing the issue so it would be easy for me to post. This thread is not about you or your products. Let's stick to the issue at hand. If you want a thread for your online sales facts we should post it in the dealer / shop experiences forum.

Neptune97

Uh, how can there be a difference between "good" wattage and "bad" wattage? Wattage is the product of voltage, which isn't even a concrete being. Its a potential.

If there really is a difference, I'd like to see the physics behind it....

jmax

Voltage X current = power, in watts 12.5 volts X 50 amps = 625 watts.

Power = (voltage ^2) / resistance, (50 volts ^ 2) / 2 ohms = 1250 watts.

Thank you for being the first person to read anything on this thread

friendhasmax

I agree. a watt is a watt no matter what amp is producing it. There is no such thing as a clean or dirty watt. People seem to confuse wattage with the signal that is going to the speaker. A profile amp that is producing an actual 200 watts of RMS power is the same as produced by a 2000 dollar amp. It is mostly sales hype that brings people to ignorance on this matter. There are differences though in the electrical components in expensive amps though. Dont confuse what im saying now...i im not contradicting myself when i say this...all i meant before was that wattage cannot be clean nor dirty...expensive amps use much higher quality op-amps on the input signal stage which leads to a cleaner signal output, 105 degree celcius caps also function better than 85 degree caps...things of this nature lead to a cleaner output signal....this is all mostly based on theoretical numbers though...as jmax stated above...most people will not be able to tell the difference between cheap and expensive amps on a blind(not looking at which amp is on) test...its all psychological....but hook those amps up to an oscilloscope..and you will notably see a difference in an expensive amp...technically not worth any extra money based on sound quality.....but for aesthetics, an expensive amp is always nice

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

regardless ,a component set driven by a pyramid amp does not produce the same sound
as a an Arc amp with similar power rating-

This thread was about me buying an Arc amp
with great specs and sound quality.....and you guys
are endlessly discussing the "watt=watt" bs theory.....how about some actual responses to the questions on my original posts....

jmax

You just read the second or third proper response to the sound quality issue. A watt is a watt. You can't hear the difference any more than a deaf, drunk snowblower.

"regardless ,a component set driven by a pyramid amp does not produce the same sound as a an Arc amp with similar power rating-"

That is a false statement perpetuated by amp companies marketing departments.

I own an Arc 4150 CXLR
A pair of Arc 1500 D-R
Diamond D7104
Diamond D7054
Diamond D7152
Alpine MRV - F505
MTX 4320
JBL BPx2200.1


Amps i have owned in the past included:
Alphasonic
Sony ES
Regular sony
Alpine a couple of times in the early '90's
Crutchfield, really PPI
PG ZX475Ti
I definitely forgot a few.

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=jmax]Oh boy, that "microprocessor control" must be really special. Good thing you can hear it in that amp.

Here's another amp that puts that in it's specs, http://www.kenwoodusa.com/product/pr...productId=2426


Funny that you are showing me a 5 channel Kenwood amp that
that doesn't even touch the THD of the Arc (0.005!) or damping factor(>2000)...

point is I dont mind paying more for quality .....I'm quite sure you are knowledgeable in some way in car electronics....but you contradict yourself too much...for instance

[quote-jmax]"There are other things to look at when deciding on an amp. Power supply isolation, power supply caps, the load they can push and remain stable, input and output connection quality, crossovers if you need them. There are things far more important than the name."

You must be completely insane to say that Arc/PPI/ a/d/s /MCintosh etc....
would sound the same as a Kenwood amp (who are known to blow more fuses than RF @ 2ohms-speaking of stability) The quality of the internal components in these amplifiers are unparallel- and produce music with greater clarity and more efficiency

Kenwood had a Refurbished outlet a few blocks away from my old residence-
needless to say, what quality company sells their broken shyt out of an outlet
for 75% of MSRP.....OBTW they were out of business in less than a year....

friendhasmax

ok fine, you want a response to ur original question. any good set of components from diamond, phoenix gold, CDT, the list is endless...its not hard to find a good set so just look and ask an opinion on it. the arc amp is fine.

friendhasmax

[QUOTE=MannyNJ2k2max]
question for you...what is damping factor? and what difference is there between.1% thd and .000000000000005% ? if you know anything about electrical engineering id love to hear the response.

friendhasmax

i mean this without trying to sound like a jerk....but companies live off of people like u (people that dont hold any sort of engineering degree) because a few of us know the true difference

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

....damping factor, the higher the number , the better is the control the amplifier has on low frequency bass response.....the damping factor measures to what degree current coming out of the voice coil is damped by the amp-

friendhasmax

i dunno man
sorta looks a lot like the first site a google site turned up...word for word http://www.smr-archive.com/forum_4/messages/1368.shtml

if u actually knew that you wouldnt be ignorant on the SQ issue

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

Just because you claim to be an engineer, and Jmax is on squirrel patrol, doesnt mean I dont know how to spend my money.....I've owned Kicker and MTX amps...although plenty powerfull not very efficient...or SQ friendly ....also owned Soundstreams (great amps worth every penny)....
I also have numerous friends that have bought plenty of products (from great -to -shyt) So i feel I
can make an educated decision...

Well according to Jmax he owns:
Arc 4150 CXLR
A pair of Arc 1500 D-R
Diamond D7104
Diamond D7054
Diamond D7152
....now these cost a pretty penny....so why is he contradicting himself...and tryng to sell his bs theories ...

friendhasmax

i hope u read my post which is right above the one u just wrote...yea jmax has nice gear, he never told you to get cheap stuff...he was merely explaining something thats all....i buy expensive stuff too...not for SQ but for aesthetics and something to say u have cause to others it looks really nice....but check out that link i sent http://www.smr-archive.com/forum_4/messages/1368.shtml
and tell me u didnt copy that word for word

friendhasmax

as a matter of fact look further down on that page and look at this: "Don't be impressed by specifications of very high damping factors, just listen and decide! Most tube amps have low damping factors and sound just fine."


again...INAUDIBLE DIFFERENCES

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

friendhasmax....question ...you claim to have
a Soundstream amp/ TR speaker....
Now after hearing the arc....I decided to look up some amps ( was considering a TR500/4) because of my good experience with Soundstream.....

So whats your point exactly? Soundtream is not cheap (good rep/reliable/$$$) Is it something against Arc audio? Because after hearing it in person I decided that was the SQ sound I wanted...
and #'s wise on paper looked even better...

jmax

[QUOTE=MannyNJ2k2max]Buddy, go take an english class and learn to read. I never contradicted myself. Go look up in an audio book the point where THD becomes audible with music. Then look up how damping factor is measured and what values are considered to be good. Then learn to take specs with a grain of salt. Unless they are verified with an independant unbiased study they are worthless. And if you don't understand what you are reading there is no point in paying for an independant analysis.

I pointed out the Kenwood becuase I was fairly certian you would not respect them as a quality brand. Yet they are using a microprocessor to control the amp, just like ARC. Those ARC's must be really good if they are using Kenwood's processors.

I never indicated that ARC wasn't a good amp. I only indicated that there are plenty of amps out there for less money that will sound the same in your car. Those ARC's are not new amps. They have been on the market at least 4-5 years. If I can find a 10-20 year old amp I would definitely challenge the sound quality of the ARC to be able to "beat" the 10-20 year old amp.

friendhasmax

i have nothing against arc.....and nothing against any expensive amp manufacturer...i have soundstream equipment for more than one reason...it looks nice...not many people have it...its kinda unique..i certainly dont have it for SQ...a RF or sony amp would give the same exact results....jmax and myself not once tried to persuade u to not buy an arc audio amp...we just wanted to educate on electronics and human hearing...believe me if i had the moneydown the line one day for SQ i would buy or build myself a vaccuum tube amp..thats a huge diff in SQ and worth the money