High End 4ch amp, which one?
08-24-2004, 07:21 PM
#41
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Ixos wiring, from what I hear from others (no personal experience), or Kimber Cable
Again, both if you're looking to spend money for marginal return.
By this point, I'd be looking to spend my money on a kickazzed installer. Personally, if Ihad the money you're talking about, I would have already partitioned some of it off to just send my car away to Audionutz in Ocala Florida and have Steve Head and his boys do work, or maybe Jason AKA slick...audio origionals in PA.
I thought the W7 sounded noticeably better than the Brahma I heard, but we're certainly at a subjective point with marginal returns for your money.
PS here goes a T-03 4.150 for toooo darn cheap. I'd grab it...
http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showt...threadid=98919
Again, both if you're looking to spend money for marginal return.
By this point, I'd be looking to spend my money on a kickazzed installer. Personally, if Ihad the money you're talking about, I would have already partitioned some of it off to just send my car away to Audionutz in Ocala Florida and have Steve Head and his boys do work, or maybe Jason AKA slick...audio origionals in PA.
I thought the W7 sounded noticeably better than the Brahma I heard, but we're certainly at a subjective point with marginal returns for your money.
PS here goes a T-03 4.150 for toooo darn cheap. I'd grab it...
http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showt...threadid=98919
08-24-2004, 09:06 PM
#42
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,084
I've used the Diamond Audio D7's for almost a year in my current setup w/o problems. It's setup for SQ. I like the flexibility and build of the D7's. Based on just raw listening by some very experienced listeners is that it's pretty clean in my case. I agree.
08-25-2004, 04:38 AM
#44
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
All I'm going to say, and I know a lot of people will disagree with me, is...
You will NOT hear much, if any difference in any of the high-end amplifiers everyone is mentioning in this thread unless they're pushed into clipping. A watt is a watt. Some of the best SQ systems I've ever heard use amps that many people might consider middle-of-the-road. Most differences people claim to hear between two similarly powered amplifiers can be attributed to psychoacoustics....what they "think" a high-priced Brax (for example) is supposed to sound like compared to a lesser-priced brand. Unfortunately, the whole SQ/Amplifier relationship fallacy is perpetuated by the Car Audio industry. There have been many A/B comparisons done to back this up.
An exception to this is tube amplifiers. They have very unique sound properties that many people say far surpass conventional power amplifiers.
Choose an amplifier that provides enough power, has the right features, and will fit in your car.
Tony
You will NOT hear much, if any difference in any of the high-end amplifiers everyone is mentioning in this thread unless they're pushed into clipping. A watt is a watt. Some of the best SQ systems I've ever heard use amps that many people might consider middle-of-the-road. Most differences people claim to hear between two similarly powered amplifiers can be attributed to psychoacoustics....what they "think" a high-priced Brax (for example) is supposed to sound like compared to a lesser-priced brand. Unfortunately, the whole SQ/Amplifier relationship fallacy is perpetuated by the Car Audio industry. There have been many A/B comparisons done to back this up.
An exception to this is tube amplifiers. They have very unique sound properties that many people say far surpass conventional power amplifiers.
Choose an amplifier that provides enough power, has the right features, and will fit in your car.
Tony
08-25-2004, 04:51 AM
#45
People who buy high end know what they are looking for-a companies good reputation, high end amps have better power supplies, higher grade componentry, better design & layout- which end result is a refined product that has incredible speaker control(damp factor)
I do agree with you that once you are in the high end category it becomes very difficult to compare SQ of certain amps, other than flexibility- but from a high end to middle of the road commercial amp, there are differences you can pinpoint, and I truly believe speaker control is attributed to this, you just have to do let your ears be the judge of how your speakers pile on the power- so its up to the individual to decide for himself, psychoacoustics or not- our ears are our only measuring tool
I do agree with you that once you are in the high end category it becomes very difficult to compare SQ of certain amps, other than flexibility- but from a high end to middle of the road commercial amp, there are differences you can pinpoint, and I truly believe speaker control is attributed to this, you just have to do let your ears be the judge of how your speakers pile on the power- so its up to the individual to decide for himself, psychoacoustics or not- our ears are our only measuring tool
08-25-2004, 09:39 AM
#46
Originally Posted by MannyNJ2k2max
People who buy high end know what they are looking for-a companies good reputation, high end amps have better power supplies, higher grade componentry, better design & layout- which end result is a refined product that has incredible speaker control(damp factor)
I do agree with you that once you are in the high end category it becomes very difficult to compare SQ of certain amps, other than flexibility- but from a high end to middle of the road commercial amp, there are differences you can pinpoint, and I truly believe speaker control is attributed to this, you just have to do let your ears be the judge of how your speakers pile on the power- so its up to the individual to decide for himself, psychoacoustics or not- our ears are our only measuring tool
I do agree with you that once you are in the high end category it becomes very difficult to compare SQ of certain amps, other than flexibility- but from a high end to middle of the road commercial amp, there are differences you can pinpoint, and I truly believe speaker control is attributed to this, you just have to do let your ears be the judge of how your speakers pile on the power- so its up to the individual to decide for himself, psychoacoustics or not- our ears are our only measuring tool
Head- Sony XES P1, T1, C1
X-over- Sony XES-X1
Speakers- F) MB Quart 8" 3 way components, R) 2 MB Quart 6.5" mid (no tweet), and an MB Quart 2" mid
Amplifier setups-
setup 1- Sony ES Amps
setup 2- Soundstream
setup 3- Linear Power
setup 4- PPI Art series
The Linear Power amps had the worst SN at 80 and the damping factor was even worst. But overall the sound quality was by far the best. I'd have to say the Soundstream amps had the most unique sound. Sony ES were Ok. The PPI stuff best overall.
08-25-2004, 10:50 AM
#47
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I agree that an expensive high end amp is probably the last thing to upgrade to for a SQ car. The rest of the system and the install are more important. That said, the whole psychoacoustics argument is fairly controversial. My personal belief is that there are subtle differences between amplifiers and that the rest of your system has to be revealing enough to hear them.
08-26-2004, 08:52 PM
#49
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by MannyNJ2k2max
People who buy high end know what they are looking for-a companies good reputation, high end amps have better power supplies, higher grade componentry, better design & layout- which end result is a refined product that has incredible speaker control(damp factor)
I do agree with you that once you are in the high end category it becomes very difficult to compare SQ of certain amps, other than flexibility- but from a high end to middle of the road commercial amp, there are differences you can pinpoint, and I truly believe speaker control is attributed to this, you just have to do let your ears be the judge of how your speakers pile on the power- so its up to the individual to decide for himself, psychoacoustics or not- our ears are our only measuring tool
I do agree with you that once you are in the high end category it becomes very difficult to compare SQ of certain amps, other than flexibility- but from a high end to middle of the road commercial amp, there are differences you can pinpoint, and I truly believe speaker control is attributed to this, you just have to do let your ears be the judge of how your speakers pile on the power- so its up to the individual to decide for himself, psychoacoustics or not- our ears are our only measuring tool
Tony
08-27-2004, 03:44 AM
#50
Originally Posted by Tony Fernandes
Damping factor is a ratio of the internal impedence of the amp to the impedence of the load (the speaker). It is a very misleading and useless measurment in the comparisons of amplifiers. It will vary by setup.
Tony
Tony
a high damping factor= a lower output impedance ,which is very important in dealing with highly reactive speakers
wether its useless or not to someone, is the difference of buying middle of the road or high end
08-27-2004, 01:55 PM
#52
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by Certified Beast
So basically what we have is
An Eclipse CD8454
Seas or RAC components
Tru 4ch copper amp
Tru Hammer amp
and 2 12W7
So thats the ultimate high end system?
An Eclipse CD8454
Seas or RAC components
Tru 4ch copper amp
Tru Hammer amp
and 2 12W7
So thats the ultimate high end system?
Anyone can argue that a Nakamichi CD-700 provides far better sound than a CD8454. Or does it? I think it does, maybe you don't. But the 8454 might be much better looking and more flexible allowing several different system configurations whereas the Nak is more simplistic. Think the $1,700 price tag on the Nak outweighs the $600 MSRP of the Eclipse? Well, it does...but this by itself doesn't mean much. For example:
Car Audio and Electronics reviewed the Tru C-7 4-channel amp here. The MSRP is $2,500. They certainly liked the way it sounded. However, remember that a good amplifier doesn't really "sound" any particular way. It's job is to amplify the source signal and not add any artifacts, coloration...nothing! It should be completly transparent. Not "warm" sounding or any other adjective. However, if you read the entire article you'll note there were several things they did not like about the amp at all.
On the flipside, Car Stereo Review (now called Mobile Entertainment) reviewed a Phoenix Gold ZX600ti amplifier here. I believe that this review was far more favorable than the Tru amp. It would have been nice to see a head to head comparison, so you have to read the article yourself to decide. One thing's for sure, like the Eclipse ($600) vs. the Nakamichi ($1,700) these two amps are also far apart in the price realm, at $2,500 vs. $800. And I'm not sure if the Tru can be found cheaper, but the Phoenix Gold can be found for about half that, which is an INCREDIBLE value...at least in my opinion.
I could find other similar examples with your choice of speakers and subs. Truth is, a "dream" system can be a lot of things nowadays. There's certainly nothing wrong with the system you listed in your post...that's for sure! But I bet anyone that has good grasp of car audio can put together a system that sounds just as good, if not better, for way less...or more for that matter.
Tony
08-27-2004, 02:01 PM
#53
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by MannyNJ2k2max
not nescessarily useless, not nescessarily just a number....
a high damping factor= a lower output impedance ,which is very important in dealing with highly reactive speakers
wether its useless or not to someone, is the difference of buying middle of the road or high end
a high damping factor= a lower output impedance ,which is very important in dealing with highly reactive speakers
wether its useless or not to someone, is the difference of buying middle of the road or high end
Tony
08-27-2004, 02:19 PM
#54
Quote:
It helps when an amplifier has a high damping factor (in other words, a low output impedance) because the degree to which it is affected, itself, by these annoying speaker behaviors is reduced along with its output impedance. If the speaker needs more current (its overall impedance drops) then a lower amplifier output impedance will allow that current to be drawn out of the amplifier without causing much of a change in the applied voltage - and that means less distortion."
http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz...ingfactor.html
It helps when an amplifier has a high damping factor (in other words, a low output impedance) because the degree to which it is affected, itself, by these annoying speaker behaviors is reduced along with its output impedance. If the speaker needs more current (its overall impedance drops) then a lower amplifier output impedance will allow that current to be drawn out of the amplifier without causing much of a change in the applied voltage - and that means less distortion."
http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz...ingfactor.html
08-27-2004, 06:37 PM
#55
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by MannyNJ2k2max
Quote:
It helps when an amplifier has a high damping factor (in other words, a low output impedance) because the degree to which it is affected, itself, by these annoying speaker behaviors is reduced along with its output impedance. If the speaker needs more current (its overall impedance drops) then a lower amplifier output impedance will allow that current to be drawn out of the amplifier without causing much of a change in the applied voltage - and that means less distortion."
http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz...ingfactor.html
It helps when an amplifier has a high damping factor (in other words, a low output impedance) because the degree to which it is affected, itself, by these annoying speaker behaviors is reduced along with its output impedance. If the speaker needs more current (its overall impedance drops) then a lower amplifier output impedance will allow that current to be drawn out of the amplifier without causing much of a change in the applied voltage - and that means less distortion."
http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz...ingfactor.html
And, I'll raise you one more HERE
Tony
08-29-2004, 07:52 AM
#56
Originally Posted by Tony Fernandes
I'll see your quote and raise you another quote from the same article: "Like most specifications, damping factor does not tell you an amplifier is "good". It can't; no more than a tuner with a great image rejection specification is guaranteed to be a "good tuner". There is a lot more to good amplifier performance than output impedance."
And, I'll raise you one more HERE
Tony
And, I'll raise you one more HERE
Tony
Now the article also states that:
quote-
'The bottom line is, a really low damping factor can tell you an amp isn't going to be all that great with a highly reactive speaker (the larger a speaker driver is physically, and the more power it is designed to handle, the more likely it is to be highly reactive.) What's really low? Well, if we're talking about 8 ohm speakers, a damping factor below about 30 indicates it's going to have noticeably poorer control of a highly reactive load as compared to an amplifier with a damping factor of 100. How much? It works out to about 10% worse (because you have to factor in the speaker resistance.) As the damping factor goes lower, it gets worse yet. You can hear a 10% difference in speaker control. Trust me!'
Now when I say hear my speakers sound better off my Arc 4150 that has a damping factor of 2000, and of which its THD #'s are even cleaner at 2ohm than the typical amp out there that avg's 100-250 damp factor- it reminds me why I bought high end
Tony, its ok if you are dont agree, but this thread was based on a member inquiring about high end amps, and damping factor is a spec that alot of companies didn't list before, but now the more educated audiophile wants to see it and it is relative in a way to SQ when looking at the whole picture-
Now just about all the amp co's list it because it is a buying factor
08-29-2004, 02:46 PM
#57
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by MannyNJ2k2max
Tony......this can be argued to the death, I agree this spec alone means nothing, but in collaboration with other specs it means alot- An amps THD will typically double and its Damping factor will cut in half everytime the amp drops in impedance- this is important because if you are running lower impedance, if you have very low THD and high damping, you'll still be able to run the amplifier at a clean level without bringing in noise and thd into the equation-
Now the article also states that:
quote-
'The bottom line is, a really low damping factor can tell you an amp isn't going to be all that great with a highly reactive speaker (the larger a speaker driver is physically, and the more power it is designed to handle, the more likely it is to be highly reactive.) What's really low? Well, if we're talking about 8 ohm speakers, a damping factor below about 30 indicates it's going to have noticeably poorer control of a highly reactive load as compared to an amplifier with a damping factor of 100. How much? It works out to about 10% worse (because you have to factor in the speaker resistance.) As the damping factor goes lower, it gets worse yet. You can hear a 10% difference in speaker control. Trust me!'
Now when I say hear my speakers sound better off my Arc 4150 that has a damping factor of 2000, and of which its THD #'s are even cleaner at 2ohm than the typical amp out there that avg's 100-250 damp factor- it reminds me why I bought high end
Tony, its ok if you are dont agree, but this thread was based on a member inquiring about high end amps, and damping factor is a spec that alot of companies didn't list before, but now the more educated audiophile wants to see it and it is relative in a way to SQ when looking at the whole picture-
Now just about all the amp co's list it because it is a buying factor
Now the article also states that:
quote-
'The bottom line is, a really low damping factor can tell you an amp isn't going to be all that great with a highly reactive speaker (the larger a speaker driver is physically, and the more power it is designed to handle, the more likely it is to be highly reactive.) What's really low? Well, if we're talking about 8 ohm speakers, a damping factor below about 30 indicates it's going to have noticeably poorer control of a highly reactive load as compared to an amplifier with a damping factor of 100. How much? It works out to about 10% worse (because you have to factor in the speaker resistance.) As the damping factor goes lower, it gets worse yet. You can hear a 10% difference in speaker control. Trust me!'
Now when I say hear my speakers sound better off my Arc 4150 that has a damping factor of 2000, and of which its THD #'s are even cleaner at 2ohm than the typical amp out there that avg's 100-250 damp factor- it reminds me why I bought high end
Tony, its ok if you are dont agree, but this thread was based on a member inquiring about high end amps, and damping factor is a spec that alot of companies didn't list before, but now the more educated audiophile wants to see it and it is relative in a way to SQ when looking at the whole picture-
Now just about all the amp co's list it because it is a buying factor
I'm sorry we disagree so badly on this subject! I know we've shared similar opinions a lot on other things in the past, so we'll just have to agree to disagree one this one I guess! But I have to comment on a few more things you said. First of all, I checked out Arc Audio's website and they don't list any damping factors...neither does Phoenix Gold. I couldn't even find DF listen on my amp's owner's manual. I checked a few more manufacturer's websites and none of them did, either. Second, most specifications in the audio realm aren't held to a common standard...what one manufacturer may list for their amp, speaker, or other component may be completely different than another manufacturer. So in the real world, those specifications may not mean anything at all. Your Arc amp may have a DF of 2000, but the Tru Amp mentioned earlier in this thread had a DF of 65. Quite a difference. So while DF is not a totally useless spec, it certainly can be very misleading as in the above comparison. Let's also not forget that DF is a term that should be limited to bass note reproductions. DF has very little use in terms of driving mids or tweets. I have a quoted a letter from Phoenix Gold engineering regarding DF below. -Tony
" THE MYTHS OF AMPLIFIER DAMPING FACTORS
Damping factor is one of the most misunderstood amplifier
specifications. Many manufacturers pick numbers out of a hat and list
them as damping factor specifications. Numbers in the 1000 range are
not only ridiculous, but usually misleading.
Simply stated: the damping factor of an amplifier refers to its output
impedance to load impedance ratio. Damping, is the ability of an
amplifier to control the motion of a speaker after the signal is
removed. Because impedance is a complex AC resistance, this ratio will
change with frequency.
Let's look at an example of damping factor:
If we have an amplifier with an output impedance of 0.016 ohms measured
at 60 Hz and we tie in a 4 ohms resistor load to the output of the
amplifier, we will get a damping factor of 250 (4 ohms/0.016 ohms) at
60 Hz.
If we change the load to 2 ohms, the damping factor drops to 125
(2 ohms/0.016 ohms). As you can see, the damping factor of an amplifier
(any amplifier) will drop as the load impedance drops.
The problem exists when manufacturer's give damping factors which are
measured at higher frequencies such as 1000 Hz, or more commmon, don't
specify a frequency at all. The output impedance of the amplifier will
increase at higher frequencies which will give us much lower ratios
than at lower frequencies. The frequency at which the damping factor
is measured is important concidering an amplifier's damping factor is
more critical at lower frequencies. The reason the damping factor is
more critical at lower frequencies, is that the lower frequencies are
usually reproduced by larger speakers, with a large moving mass at
resonance, and therefore need more control.
The other problem with damping factor is the effect that speaker wire
has on the output impedance of an amplifier. Long runs of speaker wire
lower the damping factor of amplifiers (see chart*) and must be
concidered in the equation.
In closing, it is not uncommon for amplifiers to have damping factors
below 50 at lower frequencies (60 Hz), but, these amplifiers are also
amongst the best sounding units in the world. Don't be fooled by
damping factor specs!
Phoenix Gold Engineering"
08-30-2004, 07:12 AM
#58
Tony, I'd trust the specs from Robert Zef whos been in the game longer than PG, we are not talking about Audiobahn - Damp factor is listed on the Arc brochure and was
confirmed by Arc technicians over the phone- I did quite alot of research and auditioning before buying into that company- which is what I'd suggest to anyone dropping that kind of money into a high end amplifier
The fact that a Tru may have a damp factor of 65 is that it may rate/measure their specs differently- For example my Arc1500D list the damp factor of 165 per 100watts or perhaps it has to do with the Tru's 'colored' sound- which is what most that have tested them have agreed on
I have not posted anything that is incorrect, what we seem to disagree on is on the importance given to this spec- I say its something to look for when you buy high end(of course you have to understand it and see how the individual companies rate it)
I say if you are buying middle of the road or lower line stuff, it shouldn't be a concern because you get what you pay for and the primary concern is power
But when you are considering paying the big bucks, you want to know you are buying a more refined product, and all the specs should be considered
confirmed by Arc technicians over the phone- I did quite alot of research and auditioning before buying into that company- which is what I'd suggest to anyone dropping that kind of money into a high end amplifier
The fact that a Tru may have a damp factor of 65 is that it may rate/measure their specs differently- For example my Arc1500D list the damp factor of 165 per 100watts or perhaps it has to do with the Tru's 'colored' sound- which is what most that have tested them have agreed on
I have not posted anything that is incorrect, what we seem to disagree on is on the importance given to this spec- I say its something to look for when you buy high end(of course you have to understand it and see how the individual companies rate it)
I say if you are buying middle of the road or lower line stuff, it shouldn't be a concern because you get what you pay for and the primary concern is power
But when you are considering paying the big bucks, you want to know you are buying a more refined product, and all the specs should be considered
08-30-2004, 02:24 PM
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,084
While I agree that when comparing high end vs high end the actual "audio" differences are gonna be very minute and hardly worth talking about, there is a difference between Diamond Audio D7 amps and say.....Legacy amps.
I totally agree with Tony that most of the "sound" differences in car environment come from varied positions. I'm a big believer that 90% of all SQ comes from a combo of components chosen and install. You can have the $3000 tube amp installed like trash and it will sound like trash. You can have a $100 ebay amp installed right, and it will sound like a $500 amp installed right. Will it last the same? Dunno. Will it look the same? Doubtful. Will you get the same kind of customer support? Even more doubtful.
Choose an amp because of it's features, it's specs, warranty, reliability, or even asthetics sometimes. Don't choose an amp because your buddy told you to. Go out and listen to different setups. Car shows and sound offs are a great place to do that. See what you like, then make a choice. We can talk till we're blue in the face telling you to get this or that. Until you sit down and listen to see the difference for yourself, you may only make a good decision by stumbling on it.
I totally agree with Tony that most of the "sound" differences in car environment come from varied positions. I'm a big believer that 90% of all SQ comes from a combo of components chosen and install. You can have the $3000 tube amp installed like trash and it will sound like trash. You can have a $100 ebay amp installed right, and it will sound like a $500 amp installed right. Will it last the same? Dunno. Will it look the same? Doubtful. Will you get the same kind of customer support? Even more doubtful.
Choose an amp because of it's features, it's specs, warranty, reliability, or even asthetics sometimes. Don't choose an amp because your buddy told you to. Go out and listen to different setups. Car shows and sound offs are a great place to do that. See what you like, then make a choice. We can talk till we're blue in the face telling you to get this or that. Until you sit down and listen to see the difference for yourself, you may only make a good decision by stumbling on it.
08-30-2004, 02:28 PM
#60
Originally Posted by BBOYSTEVIE
Flagship would be the copper series (and the Hammer H1 for subs). Believe me, the T-03 series is gonna kick the crap out of anything else out there. the tube amps are part of the copper series (theres copper series non tube and tube. I'd go T-o3 myself but if you're looking to drop the most money, what the hey...go copper.
Gosh there amps are georgeous and HUGE. The T-03 4150 is a freaking BEAST.
You'll see plenty of TRU at IASCA finals this year. A lot of competitors have made the switch. When Matt at Image Dynamics is impressed by an amp, you know its a beast.
the tube amps I have listened to have been home audio amps and have sounded "smoother and more laid back" than other amps. It's worth noting that these tube amps as far as I know (if you're going to get one or really want to know more, contact John Yi at Tru personally....If you're really interested in buying one of they're amps, he'll spend an hour talking to you on the phone personally) are not a pure tube amp...tubes are in the output circuits not on the imputs (I'm just about getting over my head, but this is the way I understand it). Most if not all car audio tube amps are this way I believe (Tube driver, US amps tubes). From what I hear of the TRU tube amps, they are not lacking in power.
Ah...I forgot that they make pure class A amps too. for that though, you need a heck of a power supply for not much power (though I hear you don't need much power if you're running class A). Those things have to be rediculously priced thought.
Moral of the story (in my opinion is) that TRU has a few lines that are going to kick the crap out of other high end car audio amps...If youre serious about it, take the time to contact Jon at Tru and he can help you with an amp that fits your needs (or e-mail dingaling from elitecaraudio.com he knows his stuff too and has the best prices on TRU direct.
Have I mentioned that that T-03 4.150 is a huge sexy beast of an amp? druel get one...you WONT be dissapointed.
Do you have an upgraded alternator/battery?
PS...if anyone wants an incredible deal on a high power, audiophile, sexy beast of a 2 channel amp, theres a T03 2.250 (conservatively rated at 250 x 2 at 4 ohms) going on elitecaraudio.com now for $700 shipped. I know to most of you that is a rediculous price to pay for an amp, but for that amp its a steal. Here's the linky:
http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showt...threadid=98371
Man would that look nice next to a To3 4.150!
uh uh jizz those amps are drop dead sexy!
Gosh there amps are georgeous and HUGE. The T-03 4150 is a freaking BEAST.
You'll see plenty of TRU at IASCA finals this year. A lot of competitors have made the switch. When Matt at Image Dynamics is impressed by an amp, you know its a beast.
the tube amps I have listened to have been home audio amps and have sounded "smoother and more laid back" than other amps. It's worth noting that these tube amps as far as I know (if you're going to get one or really want to know more, contact John Yi at Tru personally....If you're really interested in buying one of they're amps, he'll spend an hour talking to you on the phone personally) are not a pure tube amp...tubes are in the output circuits not on the imputs (I'm just about getting over my head, but this is the way I understand it). Most if not all car audio tube amps are this way I believe (Tube driver, US amps tubes). From what I hear of the TRU tube amps, they are not lacking in power.
Ah...I forgot that they make pure class A amps too. for that though, you need a heck of a power supply for not much power (though I hear you don't need much power if you're running class A). Those things have to be rediculously priced thought.
Moral of the story (in my opinion is) that TRU has a few lines that are going to kick the crap out of other high end car audio amps...If youre serious about it, take the time to contact Jon at Tru and he can help you with an amp that fits your needs (or e-mail dingaling from elitecaraudio.com he knows his stuff too and has the best prices on TRU direct.
Have I mentioned that that T-03 4.150 is a huge sexy beast of an amp? druel get one...you WONT be dissapointed.
Do you have an upgraded alternator/battery?
PS...if anyone wants an incredible deal on a high power, audiophile, sexy beast of a 2 channel amp, theres a T03 2.250 (conservatively rated at 250 x 2 at 4 ohms) going on elitecaraudio.com now for $700 shipped. I know to most of you that is a rediculous price to pay for an amp, but for that amp its a steal. Here's the linky:
http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showt...threadid=98371
Man would that look nice next to a To3 4.150!
uh uh jizz those amps are drop dead sexy!
All I have to say is....
1. Get your hand on a Tru (any)
2. take the back plate off
3. Look for the speaker output leads
4. Voila !!! right next to the Power supply!
As good as they sound, not too smartly designed IMO- I guess some inteference can play into the 'coloration'- not my cup of tea, not for thousands
And how come Image Dynamics and Rainbow use Arc Audio amps to test their speakers?
08-31-2004, 02:41 PM
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by MannyNJ2k2max
Tony, I'd trust the specs from Robert Zef whos been in the game longer than PG, we are not talking about Audiobahn - Damp factor is listed on the Arc brochure and was
confirmed by Arc technicians over the phone- I did quite alot of research and auditioning before buying into that company- which is what I'd suggest to anyone dropping that kind of money into a high end amplifier
The fact that a Tru may have a damp factor of 65 is that it may rate/measure their specs differently- For example my Arc1500D list the damp factor of 165 per 100watts or perhaps it has to do with the Tru's 'colored' sound- which is what most that have tested them have agreed on
I have not posted anything that is incorrect, what we seem to disagree on is on the importance given to this spec- I say its something to look for when you buy high end(of course you have to understand it and see how the individual companies rate it)
I say if you are buying middle of the road or lower line stuff, it shouldn't be a concern because you get what you pay for and the primary concern is power
But when you are considering paying the big bucks, you want to know you are buying a more refined product, and all the specs should be considered
confirmed by Arc technicians over the phone- I did quite alot of research and auditioning before buying into that company- which is what I'd suggest to anyone dropping that kind of money into a high end amplifier
The fact that a Tru may have a damp factor of 65 is that it may rate/measure their specs differently- For example my Arc1500D list the damp factor of 165 per 100watts or perhaps it has to do with the Tru's 'colored' sound- which is what most that have tested them have agreed on
I have not posted anything that is incorrect, what we seem to disagree on is on the importance given to this spec- I say its something to look for when you buy high end(of course you have to understand it and see how the individual companies rate it)
I say if you are buying middle of the road or lower line stuff, it shouldn't be a concern because you get what you pay for and the primary concern is power
But when you are considering paying the big bucks, you want to know you are buying a more refined product, and all the specs should be considered
Two more DF articles:
#1
#2
Tony
08-31-2004, 03:33 PM
#62
^^funny thing is I've had most of the links you sent me already
When I bought my 4ch I ran my whole system with it, not just highs- Not so much defending ARC with my posts, but its my basis for comparison
An amps damp factor can tell you alot of things- mostly if an amp is going to bring in audible distortion at lower impedances- so buying high end entails the need to be somewhat flexible dont you think? I'm not the only one that has used an amp at 2ohms am I? Am not the only one either that bought a high end amp for an SQ system
and wants flawless output, regardless of what or how I intend to run it?
I dont care to argue wether an amps damp factor is not important to 'you', its a subjective matter and I choose to look at that spec when I buy an amplifier- I guess its the difference between me and you- I'm not the type that lives by the talk of Richard Clark (as knowledgeable as he is), I'm the type that makes my own decisions- I've been doing this for 10+yrs , I have a decent amp collection in my garage over that time -
If you have a chance try to run a Memphis MC500D at 2ohms to your subs and let me know if you hear any audible noise ? Your speakers will hiss as if you in a pit of rattlesnakes- and If you cant hear it, then we should not be having this discussion- we obviously dont listen for certain things the same- big difference between hearing and listening.....
When I bought my 4ch I ran my whole system with it, not just highs- Not so much defending ARC with my posts, but its my basis for comparison
An amps damp factor can tell you alot of things- mostly if an amp is going to bring in audible distortion at lower impedances- so buying high end entails the need to be somewhat flexible dont you think? I'm not the only one that has used an amp at 2ohms am I? Am not the only one either that bought a high end amp for an SQ system
and wants flawless output, regardless of what or how I intend to run it?
I dont care to argue wether an amps damp factor is not important to 'you', its a subjective matter and I choose to look at that spec when I buy an amplifier- I guess its the difference between me and you- I'm not the type that lives by the talk of Richard Clark (as knowledgeable as he is), I'm the type that makes my own decisions- I've been doing this for 10+yrs , I have a decent amp collection in my garage over that time -
If you have a chance try to run a Memphis MC500D at 2ohms to your subs and let me know if you hear any audible noise ? Your speakers will hiss as if you in a pit of rattlesnakes- and If you cant hear it, then we should not be having this discussion- we obviously dont listen for certain things the same- big difference between hearing and listening.....
08-31-2004, 07:45 PM
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by MannyNJ2k2max
^^funny thing is I've had most of the links you sent me already
When I bought my 4ch I ran my whole system with it, not just highs- Not so much defending ARC with my posts, but its my basis for comparison
An amps damp factor can tell you alot of things- mostly if an amp is going to bring in audible distortion at lower impedances- so buying high end entails the need to be somewhat flexible dont you think? I'm not the only one that has used an amp at 2ohms am I? Am not the only one either that bought a high end amp for an SQ system
and wants flawless output, regardless of what or how I intend to run it?
I dont care to argue wether an amps damp factor is not important to 'you', its a subjective matter and I choose to look at that spec when I buy an amplifier- I guess its the difference between me and you- I'm not the type that lives by the talk of Richard Clark (as knowledgeable as he is), I'm the type that makes my own decisions- I've been doing this for 10+yrs , I have a decent amp collection in my garage over that time -
If you have a chance try to run a Memphis MC500D at 2ohms to your subs and let me know if you hear any audible noise ? Your speakers will hiss as if you in a pit of rattlesnakes- and If you cant hear it, then we should not be having this discussion- we obviously dont listen for certain things the same- big difference between hearing and listening.....
When I bought my 4ch I ran my whole system with it, not just highs- Not so much defending ARC with my posts, but its my basis for comparison
An amps damp factor can tell you alot of things- mostly if an amp is going to bring in audible distortion at lower impedances- so buying high end entails the need to be somewhat flexible dont you think? I'm not the only one that has used an amp at 2ohms am I? Am not the only one either that bought a high end amp for an SQ system
and wants flawless output, regardless of what or how I intend to run it?
I dont care to argue wether an amps damp factor is not important to 'you', its a subjective matter and I choose to look at that spec when I buy an amplifier- I guess its the difference between me and you- I'm not the type that lives by the talk of Richard Clark (as knowledgeable as he is), I'm the type that makes my own decisions- I've been doing this for 10+yrs , I have a decent amp collection in my garage over that time -
If you have a chance try to run a Memphis MC500D at 2ohms to your subs and let me know if you hear any audible noise ? Your speakers will hiss as if you in a pit of rattlesnakes- and If you cant hear it, then we should not be having this discussion- we obviously dont listen for certain things the same- big difference between hearing and listening.....
Well, I guess I don't see any correlation between high-end amps & DF any more than low-end amps & DF. And in similar respects, I think buying a "high-end" amp for a SQ system is kind of pointless. I honestly believe that just about any competent amp will deliver the same "SQ" for any given system...the rest of the system is the underlying factor for the SQ.
What's really interesting, is that most trophy-winning SQ cars don't use any of the "high-end" amps we've been talking about. They all use what we all use.
BTW Manny, I'm really enjoying this converstion we're having.
Tony
09-01-2004, 04:28 AM
#64
Originally Posted by Tony Fernandes
Well, I guess I don't see any correlation between high-end amps & DF any more than low-end amps & DF. And in similar respects, I think buying a "high-end" amp for a SQ system is kind of pointless. I honestly believe that just about any competent amp will deliver the same "SQ" for any given system...the rest of the system is the underlying factor for the SQ.
What's really interesting, is that most trophy-winning SQ cars don't use any of the "high-end" amps we've been talking about. They all use what we all use.
BTW Manny, I'm really enjoying this converstion we're having.
Tony
What's really interesting, is that most trophy-winning SQ cars don't use any of the "high-end" amps we've been talking about. They all use what we all use.
BTW Manny, I'm really enjoying this converstion we're having.
Tony
......I guess you can see it in terms of buying a car- most of us are content with our Maximas, but if we could've gotten a Benz or Bimmer for the refinement, not so much performance.........Dont get me wrong -I think highly of PG, heck I think highly of Kicker
09-02-2004, 06:11 PM
#66
Disco Biscuit
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,791
Arc, Tru, Milbert, Tube Driver (my personal fav) Brax, and Genisis. I got my Tube Drivers and my Dynadio drivers from Peter Lufrano at www.theautofile.com back when he carried more than just Brax and Helix. My tube drivers and Dyn components are now 6 years old, have been driven hard, and still sing like they just got broken in......
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