Wow! the drama with small manufacturers (Adire vs. AA)
05-04-2005, 01:51 AM
#1
Wow! the drama with small manufacturers (Adire vs. AA)
http://ascendantaudio.com/
i actually read Dan Wiggins posts on an audio forum about a week ago which is now on the Ascendant Audio site. i figured it might stir a little controversy but i had no idea he would DROP XBL2 because of it. anyway im curious as to what people think who are following along? RobertJ, any insight from the DIY and home audio forums? and also for Gordon... Ava 12= $200!
if i had ANY job right now id pick up at least one sub at this price and save it or find some sort of use for it because the prices make anything bought at retail (BB,CC) an absolute joke for the price.
i actually read Dan Wiggins posts on an audio forum about a week ago which is now on the Ascendant Audio site. i figured it might stir a little controversy but i had no idea he would DROP XBL2 because of it. anyway im curious as to what people think who are following along? RobertJ, any insight from the DIY and home audio forums? and also for Gordon... Ava 12= $200!
if i had ANY job right now id pick up at least one sub at this price and save it or find some sort of use for it because the prices make anything bought at retail (BB,CC) an absolute joke for the price.
05-04-2005, 05:09 AM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 265
Originally Posted by slickrick
RobertJ, any insight from the DIY and home audio forums?
In my opinion, Dan's comments were taken out of context. I took it to mean that it's up to the licensee to be responsible for quality control and that his CAC build house is better (best?) in implementing XBL^2. Basically taking a shot at Destijl and not AA. Unfortunately, AA uses Destijl as its build house. This will blow over just like the Onyx Audio/RE issues a couple of years ago.
I don't care what type of technology they use as long as it works. TC Sounds has their LMT technology and John J. at AE Speakers has said he will use something to get a flat BL also.
-Robert
05-04-2005, 09:38 AM
#5
yeah see i feel both parties are wrong...but i mean i still think its kind of a big deal for such a new company to drop a technology they planned on using in every driver they produce. makes me wonder if the 2 owners spoke and then this annoucement came. i have a hard time believing that Chad would drop xbl2 just because of a paragraph quote on an audio forum.
05-04-2005, 09:51 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: BFE, UT
Posts: 3,194
Hmm makes me wonder. Bill Gates didn't become filthy rich till they broke up Microsoft. I wonder if those two didn't talk before hand, decide they could make even more money by dividing their resources. AA could check out this new tech... and in the end share it's major secrets with Adire... I feel a major conspiracy going on here... 
Or maybe someone's panties are in twist due to their ego...
Or maybe someone's panties are in twist due to their ego...
05-04-2005, 11:54 AM
#12
this was quoted from an unknown website and was pasted into a caraudio.com thread:
Originally Posted by DanWiggins
To all,
As many of you know, Ascendant Audio, which uses our XBL² technology, took a post I made as an offense and are now claiming to stop using our technology. The offensive statement was:
"You even presume that other XBL² drivers are equivalent to ours... Ever done some objective measurements to back that up? I have, and many OEMs have, and I can tell you that just because it says XBL² does not mean it's equal to all other XBL² drivers..."
However, the quote was taken out of context. This part of a post (less than 10% of the entire post) was in relation to questions about our upcoming product line, and many "enthusiasts" claiming that our soon-to-be-released new product was a step backwards and not as good as other offerings on the market. Note that claims were made about our product which has not even been released!
Perhaps some background is in order...
Along with this flare-up many have inferred that somehow Ascendant Audio and Adire Audio were partners. There is nothing to that. In fact, the sum total of all the interaction of the two companies has been 3 e-mails outlining the legalities related to using trademarked terms. There was no agreement, license, NDA, paperwork, letter of intent, phone calls, or any other comments, information exchange, or relationship between the two companies. Just clarification about use of trademarked terms.
The sole "connection" between the two companies was that Ascendant Audio used a build house that is a licensed builder of XBL². That is the total technological/business relationship between Adire and Ascendant. The build house has a fixed royalty rate they must pay us for all licensed product; what they choose to charge customers is up to them. And note that we do not even receive direct royalties from their customers - in this case, Ascendant Audio. Nor do we even know what royalties Ascendant pays per driver. It is like a typical reseller - we have a fixed price, and whatever the licensee can get is up to them.
We also did not provide any design, development or any technological assistance to Ascendant Audio, as we weren't even aware of their use of our technology until Ascendant's website went public in late December, 2004. Their products were developed entirely on their own, without our assistance or tools.
Now that the full "business" relationship is revealed, we can discuss the original offending statement. Apparently comparisons can be made by many about product that is not even released. Comparisons based strictly on 2-3 posts with general T/S information only. In this context, making a comparison - without having ANY hard data - is poor. Several claimed that driver X from company Y was clearly superior. Or driver A from company B. And so on. All claimed in a vacuum.
It should not be a stretch to understand that not all drivers are equal; not all underhungs are equal, nor are all overhungs. Why should all XBL² drivers be equal? If all are equal, then why buy anything more than a $9.99 EBay special?
And along with that would it not be logical to consider that the newest products hitting the market would have the best chance of being the best performing, since all "competition" is known? Much like in any single-player, sequential competition (such as golf). If you know what your main competition has shot, then you know what you must beat. The bar is set.
However, that apparently is considered an offense and attack; I would say that is the nature of business. To always see where your competition is at, and attempt to excel. Business is - by its very nature - competitive, and companies always strive to provide better products for consumers. By the very nature, comparisons will - and simply must be made.
Furthermore, note that Ascendant is by no means the only offering of XBL² drivers! There are many companies actively using this technology. Some publicly admit it - some do not. Only one appears to be upset. Ascendant was never mentioned in my post, or even the post I replied to. It was completely - and incorrectly - inferred.
In fact, direct comparisons of Ascendant Audio and Adire Audio product have been made by Ascendant Audio employees, on their own forum, and the conclusion was that the Ascendant Audio product was superior! How is that less "offensive" from what I said? If anything, it is much more of a direct statement about "ours vs. theirs" than anything I posted. And it should not be a shock to anyone - what company does not believe they offer the best products for their customers?
Overall, it appears that Ascendant wants to move in a new direction; all the best to them. And apparently they have a different technology they want to pursue. That is their prerogative. But I do not think this will be the end of it. Comparisons will always be made, and unless and until you have your own build capacity - and use it 100% strictly for your own product - you will always have a "common thread" back to another competitor.
The switch also appears to have been in the works for quite a while, as in Ascendant's own posting they describe building products with the new motor, as well as with XBL². Furthermore replacement models will be apparently for sale in 1 to 2 months. As one who has been involved in manufacturing of loudspeakers over the last 10 years, I can say that unless replacements were already designed up, prototyped, and ready to go a 1 month turn is near impossible. Perhaps this was a planned move for some time, and the offending post was used as a "reason" to launch the change.
So for those looking at the latest Internet soap opera, I say sit back, take a deep breath, and think it through before you jump to conclusions. Bandwagons are dangerous things - they can be fun with everyone on board, but when the wheels fall off, everyone crashes.
Dan Wiggins
Originally Posted by DanWiggins
To all,
As many of you know, Ascendant Audio, which uses our XBL² technology, took a post I made as an offense and are now claiming to stop using our technology. The offensive statement was:
"You even presume that other XBL² drivers are equivalent to ours... Ever done some objective measurements to back that up? I have, and many OEMs have, and I can tell you that just because it says XBL² does not mean it's equal to all other XBL² drivers..."
However, the quote was taken out of context. This part of a post (less than 10% of the entire post) was in relation to questions about our upcoming product line, and many "enthusiasts" claiming that our soon-to-be-released new product was a step backwards and not as good as other offerings on the market. Note that claims were made about our product which has not even been released!
Perhaps some background is in order...
Along with this flare-up many have inferred that somehow Ascendant Audio and Adire Audio were partners. There is nothing to that. In fact, the sum total of all the interaction of the two companies has been 3 e-mails outlining the legalities related to using trademarked terms. There was no agreement, license, NDA, paperwork, letter of intent, phone calls, or any other comments, information exchange, or relationship between the two companies. Just clarification about use of trademarked terms.
The sole "connection" between the two companies was that Ascendant Audio used a build house that is a licensed builder of XBL². That is the total technological/business relationship between Adire and Ascendant. The build house has a fixed royalty rate they must pay us for all licensed product; what they choose to charge customers is up to them. And note that we do not even receive direct royalties from their customers - in this case, Ascendant Audio. Nor do we even know what royalties Ascendant pays per driver. It is like a typical reseller - we have a fixed price, and whatever the licensee can get is up to them.
We also did not provide any design, development or any technological assistance to Ascendant Audio, as we weren't even aware of their use of our technology until Ascendant's website went public in late December, 2004. Their products were developed entirely on their own, without our assistance or tools.
Now that the full "business" relationship is revealed, we can discuss the original offending statement. Apparently comparisons can be made by many about product that is not even released. Comparisons based strictly on 2-3 posts with general T/S information only. In this context, making a comparison - without having ANY hard data - is poor. Several claimed that driver X from company Y was clearly superior. Or driver A from company B. And so on. All claimed in a vacuum.
It should not be a stretch to understand that not all drivers are equal; not all underhungs are equal, nor are all overhungs. Why should all XBL² drivers be equal? If all are equal, then why buy anything more than a $9.99 EBay special?
And along with that would it not be logical to consider that the newest products hitting the market would have the best chance of being the best performing, since all "competition" is known? Much like in any single-player, sequential competition (such as golf). If you know what your main competition has shot, then you know what you must beat. The bar is set.
However, that apparently is considered an offense and attack; I would say that is the nature of business. To always see where your competition is at, and attempt to excel. Business is - by its very nature - competitive, and companies always strive to provide better products for consumers. By the very nature, comparisons will - and simply must be made.
Furthermore, note that Ascendant is by no means the only offering of XBL² drivers! There are many companies actively using this technology. Some publicly admit it - some do not. Only one appears to be upset. Ascendant was never mentioned in my post, or even the post I replied to. It was completely - and incorrectly - inferred.
In fact, direct comparisons of Ascendant Audio and Adire Audio product have been made by Ascendant Audio employees, on their own forum, and the conclusion was that the Ascendant Audio product was superior! How is that less "offensive" from what I said? If anything, it is much more of a direct statement about "ours vs. theirs" than anything I posted. And it should not be a shock to anyone - what company does not believe they offer the best products for their customers?
Overall, it appears that Ascendant wants to move in a new direction; all the best to them. And apparently they have a different technology they want to pursue. That is their prerogative. But I do not think this will be the end of it. Comparisons will always be made, and unless and until you have your own build capacity - and use it 100% strictly for your own product - you will always have a "common thread" back to another competitor.
The switch also appears to have been in the works for quite a while, as in Ascendant's own posting they describe building products with the new motor, as well as with XBL². Furthermore replacement models will be apparently for sale in 1 to 2 months. As one who has been involved in manufacturing of loudspeakers over the last 10 years, I can say that unless replacements were already designed up, prototyped, and ready to go a 1 month turn is near impossible. Perhaps this was a planned move for some time, and the offending post was used as a "reason" to launch the change.
So for those looking at the latest Internet soap opera, I say sit back, take a deep breath, and think it through before you jump to conclusions. Bandwagons are dangerous things - they can be fun with everyone on board, but when the wheels fall off, everyone crashes.
Dan Wiggins
05-04-2005, 04:16 PM
#23
wtf...how can i miss this thread?! then again...i was taking my chem finals 
anyhow...too much drama between the two. they should just kiss and make up since both companies put out some excellent drivers. one little statement can be blown hella out of proportion. also...an ava 12" for 2 bills?!
anyhow...too much drama between the two. they should just kiss and make up since both companies put out some excellent drivers. one little statement can be blown hella out of proportion. also...an ava 12" for 2 bills?!
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