well i found a pic of Avi with a special shirt made by Gordon and I...

 

lol you ****ers. I drive to school biches. neways Rich wait till ifind a pic of you

 

Guys, there was an article I read awhile back in which a panel of SQ judges completed their rounds and judged accordingly...they knew the brands of the equipment and the install.

They then did a SECOND round of judging, only blindfolded this time.

The scores? COMPLETLEY DIFFERENT.

It does seem as though everyone here has a super hard on for Eclipse, I don't really think there is much of a difference between HU and soundoutput.

PS - in advance for anyone's retort reeking of "What do you know, newbie?!"

 

i still like pioneer over eclipse for h/u strictly based on aesthetics but this thread is all about sq.

 

I just wanted to have something that sounded close to my old setup. I tried Eclipse just to see. It did sound better than what I was currently running and close to my old setup. I have spent many hours in my car listening to the different HU's I've had. Sometimes switching HU's in and out during the same listening session. There is a difference, maybe not huge, but big enough for me to switch.

I just want to say that there is a good reason for people to have a good opinion about Eclipse, their HU's are very good.

 

99% of the people don't read and take part in discussions in these audio forums. Which percentage of the people do you think this discussion is more concerned with? Therefore, all of your points so far are mute, as you've been "talking about the 99% of the population that doesn't compete and has no need for competition grade gear for their 15 minute drive to and from work/school."

an example: If I were to make a thread asking the easiest/best way to get my car to run low 12's at at least 120mph, and someone told me to TC my car, would you call them stupid? Would you tell them that all I really need to do to my car is add an intake, and possibly a Y-pipe/Catback? Afterall, 99% of the people don't need to run the 1/4 mi. in 12 seconds, and they don't need to do 120mph in their daily 15 minute drive to work/school. I would definitely hope not, since I obviously wouldn't be concerned with the norm.

12's = high SQ
TC = McIntosh
Intake, Catback, Y-pipe = JVC, Sony, Alpine

 

Hmmmmmmm. Did I not make the SAME statement a few days ago in this thread??? See post #36.

Tony

 

What do you expect? He's a newbie! LOL

 

hhm i like this guy. good analogy

 

Ingenious comeback, I may have trouble responding to this one.

Competition equipment is used almost solely by competitors and the rest by audiophiles. Anyone coming in here asking for the best way to get "slammin" bass is NOT an audiophile. These are the bulk of requests for information in this forum.

I say that only 10% of the people who even peruse this forum (or any audio forum) would actually require competition grade components.

Achieving 12's in the 1/4 mile is a specific request. If someone came in here saying they wanted to compete in dB Drag and hit 160+dB's, we would CERTAINLY have specific reccommendations for them. The same goes for someone who comes in asking how to score a perfect 20 on an RTA. However, people do NOT come in here with specific requests (or having done their own research, or with any inkling of what they want), so I'd say your point is mute at best.

Thanks for playing. Please try again.

 

And just having 2 Da Max agree with you is a bad start ...

 

Well, if you want to be MECP certified, you know where to come for school.

 

I don't believe Tony Fernandes, the starter of this thread, asked how to get "slammin bass" anywhere in this thread... so I'll rule out what you had to say about that.

I don't know if Tony is in SQ competitions or if he's an audiophile, but it looks like he has nice equiment, so I won't rule it out. However, there is at least one person, CreativeDesignz, in this thread that does compete, therefore I'll assume at least one person here does need competition grade components. Furthermore, since this thread is about how to get the best SQ performance, wouldn't we have to assume that the person would be using competition grade components? I mean, Tony isn't asking how to get the best SQ out of his stock system. Just how to get the best, period.

Finally, Tony does have a specific request... he requests that we give him our order of importance for how things rank to achieve perfect SQ. From his previous posts, it does sound like he's done quite a bit of research. Please explain to me how your fourth "paragraph" relates to Tony, and this thread that he made.

So, how about you try again, and next time... only post comments that are relative to the Thread. Not the forum. Not the 99% of the people that don't matter. Just the thread.

 

Buy the study guide and ask your local library to proctor the exam for you.
http://www.ce.org/certifications/mec...am/default.asp

 

this thread is fun...such an open-ended thread title.

 

Okay ... so lets take inventory.

Tony poses a question as to what everyone thinks is the most important when building an SQ system and lists 6 items. (Note, Tony does not ask HOW to get the best SQ as you stated, he asked what is the most important).

Then, people start spewing out their own misconceptions of audio ... not the least of which is people naming wiring in their top three (ironically the "competitor" we speak of is guilty of this one) and another one (from the same "competitor") claiming a watt really isn't a watt. Tony clears this up quickly and we move on.

Then we have 2 Da trying to say it's the headunit ... that HAS to be the most important, right? Nope. But this is 2 Da, and as I'm learning, these comments are to be expected.

Now, the reason everyone is wrong by listing components is that, as I said before (if you were reading the entire thread), your system is only as good as its weakest link. If you're using reference grade speakers, amplifiers and processors, yet retain the stock headunit ... I doubt you'll be winning any major competitions. If you have a reference grade headunit, speakers and processors and are using Alpine V12 amps, I also doubt you will be winning any major competitions. Your system is a summation of all of your equipment and will only be as good as its weakest link. Everything should be given priority 1 if you're competing. It would suck to lose the competition because you put amps above speakers.

How's that for on topic?

Oh, and don't be calling other people newbies when you have 400+ posts.

 

As I stated in my first post in this thread, if you wire it incorrectly, then it's either not going to work, or not going to work properly. Therefore, wiring IS the most important. Thank you, come again.

He never said a Watt isn't a Watt. He did say that there is a difference between power and "clean" power.

Sure, your system is only as good as it's weakest link... well which one could you most afford to skimp on? Or, does each one play an equal role in the grand scheme of things? A simple fact of life is that most people can't afford to give everything a priority of 1. Not even competitors.

You did very well at staying on topic that time, and for this I commend you.

hahaha I forgot, newbies are ranked by how many posts they have, aren't they? Not how long they've been here (4 months less than you btw). Not how much useful knowledge they possess. Just because I'm not all about my post count and I don't post a bunch of posts, or a lot of things that are or doesn't mean anything.

 

I thought that it sounded familiar .

 

I honestly don't believe that this forum represents the elite 1% of the audiophile car audio community!!! No offense to anyone in particular...sorry. Even so, regardless of their "eliteness", it's not truthful to say that even these people can hear differences that don't actually exist.

True, but there's obviously a performance difference between a SC or a TC and the common mods such as y-pipes and the like. There may be a difference in price and/or features between a top of the line Nakamichi deck and and a Pioneer, but can someone REALLY hear a difference? Better yet, blind fold those people and let them listen to both and I guarantee you the results would shock the hell of out most people. In fact, the Pioneer has WAY more options to tweak the sound to your liking, such as BBE, EQs, etc. Whereas the Nak has bass, midrange, and treble. Now you can argue all you want that YOU (meaning anyone that's reading this) can hear the difference, but I disagree. Maybe this was true years ago, but today's modern electronics are all very high quality and the gaps between specs are getting smaller and smaller. You may show me on paper that deck A has a s/n ratio of 95dB and the other has 110dB, but put them both in cars and you won't be able to hear a difference. Same thing with d/a converters...the quality only gets so good, and even the "mediocre" ones today are really quite decent. Looks good on paper? Sure! Sounds better to the ear? I think not.


I'll use your analogy for another one. Take your butt dyno and drive a few different cars and/or make mods to them as you go. Most people (myself included) can't feel the difference in an extra 20 hp, but you can certainly measure it with a stopwatch. Same thing in car audio. Someone can tell me about how much their gear costs and all the audiophile components inside, which is great - don't get me wrong! - but can these components actually translate to better sound IN AND OF THEMSELVES? I fairly certain that if everyone is like me, my system actually "sounds" better if I take the time to route all the wires PERFECTLY...when in fact I could cut dozens of corners and still have the same sound. I could buy a Sony amplifier with a TRUE 100 watts that cost me $100 on eBay, and buy a $1,200 Brax with the same 100 watts, and I'm sure it would sound 10 times better because of Brax's reputation, looks, price, etc. But in reality they both sound THE SAME to our human ears.

Tony

 

Why did you spend as much as you did on your system, buying quality items instead of just buying the cheapest stuff you could get? I mean, you're not going to be able to hear a difference anyways, right?

btw, I liked your arguement... I didn't sense even a hint of condescension.

 

Thanks. I never try to be condescending, but unfortunately I come across that way at times. Hopefully people will bring to it my attention and I can correct myself so as to not offend.

Well, I spent a lot on my Dynaudio speakers because I believe they're the most important part of the system. They're also a 3-way system with 8-inch mids, which has something to do with their LARGE price tag. Oddly enough, my Focal coaxials in my other vehicle sound SO incredibly freakin' good for a very small fraction of the price of the Dyns. Do the Dyns sound better? Of course, but relatively speaking the Focals are a HUGE bargain.

My Eclipse deck was actually one of the cheapest HUs I've owned over the last 6-7 years. Compared to my Sony C-90 ($1,200) and the Nak CD-700 ($1,750). Fact is, the Eclipse is a big bargain for what you get, IMO. I like having EQs and especially independent level control over each channel...something neither of the aformentioned decks could provide. And I honestly can't hear much of a difference, if any at all, between the three decks I mentioned. The exception to this is the fact that since the Eclipse CAN indepdently control levels, it sounds quite good to me in MY car with MY specific installation. But this has nothing to do with "quality" of the guts inside...because if that were the case the Nak would win hands down. As far as I'm concerned, head units are all about features.

As far as my amps go, PG Titanium & ZX amps ROCK!!! I love the fact that they have infinitely variable xovers, fans, line outputs, bass control, their size, their generous power output, etc. I have no problem buying cheaper amps for SQ, but features cost money.

I purchased my Soundstream subs for $150 each about 8 years ago...not too shabby! The reason they sound so good isn't because of "them" in particular, but the way they're installed. Right up against the back seat, with my trunk completely sealed off from the rest of the car, and the aperiodic membranes I made gives it an incredibly flat frequency response. Plus, my 8-inch Dyn mids provide enough mid bass and everything's crossed over perfectly (to my ears anyway) so that my subs don't sound like they're installed in the back of the car at all...it sounds like they're in the front doors along with the other speakers.

What no one probably knows is how many HOURS I've spent on the install and tweaking my system. Hundreds of hours. I'm extremely **** retentive and probably go way too far when it comes to doing things to my system. But...I have the time and patience so I figure "Why not!" Hence, the installation is #1 on my list.

If I had the time, resources and the like I'd bet big money to anyone interested that I could build an SQ system with what most people consider "sub par" equipment and have it sound as good as if not better than a "high end" system. The only monetary exception I would make is that you just simply can't skimp on speakers. They are truly the most quality-dependent link in your system. But then again, I've heard numerous systems that sound AWESOME with common, everyday speaker brands. The biggest difference? Mounting location, xover points and xover construction, power, sound proofing, vehicle interior, etc.

Anyway....I'm done with my novel!!

Tony

 

That's not wiring, that's installation. Wiring would be picking certain brands of RCA, or power/ground and speaker wires because you believe them to be superior for something other than a higher guage.

You can skimp on wiring, that's about it. It's important to have the right guage, but much beyond that it's down to the weakest link.

You mean Earl Zausmer didn't make everything priority 1?

Anyway ... fact is he went a little overboard on price per component ... as speaker positioning (installation, again) was the key factor in his dozens of trophies.

Gee, thanks.

And when I hear you speak some type of knowledge instead of simply questioning others, I'll give you the credit you deserve. I promise.

 

I agree with tony, this board definitely doesnt represent the top 1%, and I don't think anyone striving to reach that goal would be asking questions here. Not that thats a bad thing

 

MECP? wtf is that

 

Mobile Electronics Certified Professional.

More info can be found at the CEA (Consumer Electronics Assn) website. http://www.ce.org


Tony

 

forget about mecp. i think 2damax should stick to selling hurricane insurance to people in indiana.

 

Spoken like a true 16 year old.

 

It's posts like Tony's that make me glad I don't sell car audio anymore. People can have all the certifications in the world and still have "interesting" opinions like those. Reason is, they sell with their wallet in mind. Not a slam, it's just that their sensibilities about what is good value skews the reality of the situation. On the sales floor, this mentality regulates their income to a point of mediocrity.

The high end audio business would be gone if it weren't for the fact that huge differences do exist. There aren't enough "rich" people out there "wasting money" to make the high end of anything sustainable. Regular folks need to hear/see the difference as well and make a sound investment based on that reality. I don't care if YOU can hear it or not; don't buy it. The differences are there; it may just take an education to know what to listen for. This is different than a schematics-based understanding of how it works.

 

Interesting that you would call Batxel a 16-year old when he very carefully explained his opinion in a mature, thoughtful manner. And what insight have you shared with us in your thought provoking 7-word response?

Tony

 

Which post in particular? What opinion? What certifications?

What does greedy sales tactics have to do with anything? You've totally lost me here. The sentence makes sense, but it's way out of context and has nothing to do with what we've been discussing.

What huge differences do you think exist? That was the point of my thread in the first place. You've stated you think they exist, but offered absolutely no other information as to why you believe so.

Okay. I believe you're contradicting yourself here. Above, you stated that huge differences were responsible for keeping the high-end audio business from being "gone". Yet now you're saying that it's not sustainable because there's not enough "rich" people out there hearing these "huge differences"? You've lost me.


I won't, thanks.


I understand the difference between bench tests and listening tests. And I have two of the most sensitive ears of anyone I know. But the ears can only hear so much.

Tony

 

I think I gave a nice explanation of the choices I made. I would think the typical 16 yr old would repeat what the circuit city/best buy guy/gal would say.

These are the things that I heard when I was 16...
"This single 12in Jensen subwoofer can be heard from miles away because it comes in q logic bandpass box. Q logic makes the loudest boxes on earth" - some Best Buy employee

"This speaker can get louder than this speaker because it has a higher dB rating... see LOOK" - some Circuit City employee

"Only Monster cable has won SPL and SQ competitions. It's impossible to win with other wiring that why we only carry Monster. I know because I go to all the competitions and I have $15,000 system in my car" - some Tweeter employee. Not to mention that employee doesn't work there anymore since they had to clear out the store.

I disagree. Once you understand how it all works than you'll know what components become more important when building a system and which effect the overall sound reproduction instead of just agreeing with the salesmen that is there to make every extra buck he/she can. Remember that all that stuff that's getting thrown in your car was designed and engineered in a lab not in a cotton field.

I would like to see you contribute to the post and give your list and reasons why instead of trying to make me feel younger.

 

You're right. Perhaps I wasn't being clear. My point is that people that have enough money to casually throw around on high end gear cannot be the only people spending money on that gear to make it a viable category. It would go away, because if more "common sense" believed that differences are inaudible, they wouldn't purchase it because they don't (necessarily) have the means to do so casually and without very audible reasons to do so. The margins (even if they're good) can't support the very smallest of minorities as its only target market.

The argument that you have to know how to build the product or know it intimately internally (which I do, so let's not go there) in order to judge its sound quality smacks of a certain elitism I can't buy into. It sounds like an EE trying to explain why speaker cabling doesn't sound different because it "can't".