How would you go about tuning a system?
How would you go about tuning a system?
Quite a 
question eh.
I hope y'all don't
at the thought of me asking such an elementary question, but I'm still new to the game & I've honestly never attemped to tune any of my systems before. Probably because I've always had install guys put my stuff in and was never really involved in the process. Anyway......
I reckon it's never too late to learn, and was hoping that yous guys could provide me with some basic tuning knowledge so that I'd have a clue when it came time to put in & tune my own system. (after of course it's installed by someone other than my dumb *** If I tried to install anything myself I'd probably end up going through fuses like I go through chille cheese fritos)
So I guess my first & most elementary question would be: How do you actually tune a system? (my knowledge only allows me to think that you can fiddle with the gains on the amp so you can vary the output levels of the speakers & tinker with the headunit to adjust the crossover signals to the comps) Here's another doosie for you, do you mess with the actual crossover box itself to adjust the signals or can it only be done by the headunit?
Any info you can supply my temporarily unknowledgable nugget would be greatly appreciated.
thanx
question eh. I hope y'all don't
at the thought of me asking such an elementary question, but I'm still new to the game & I've honestly never attemped to tune any of my systems before. Probably because I've always had install guys put my stuff in and was never really involved in the process. Anyway......I reckon it's never too late to learn, and was hoping that yous guys could provide me with some basic tuning knowledge so that I'd have a clue when it came time to put in & tune my own system. (after of course it's installed by someone other than my dumb *** If I tried to install anything myself I'd probably end up going through fuses like I go through chille cheese fritos)
So I guess my first & most elementary question would be: How do you actually tune a system? (my knowledge only allows me to think that you can fiddle with the gains on the amp so you can vary the output levels of the speakers & tinker with the headunit to adjust the crossover signals to the comps) Here's another doosie for you, do you mess with the actual crossover box itself to adjust the signals or can it only be done by the headunit?
Any info you can supply my temporarily unknowledgable nugget would be greatly appreciated.
thanx
Back from Hibernation
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,100
Can you give us a rundown of your system...every component you are using and speaker locations?
This question IS NOT elementry at all. Sounds to me, though, that you're using a passive crossover with your component set. For a car, I really am a fan of having at least some EQ capabilities.
Oh and tuning is hard and takes practice and experience IMO which I'm still trying to pick up.
I'll start with a few links where some competant tuners give some advice on how they go about tuning. Pay attention to their system/way of going about doing it and use ti to the best of your ability with the equiptment/processing you have avaliable...
First here is "Matt Borgarts (one of the big dogs at Image Dynamics) rules on tuning"
Matt's rule of setting up your system. I'm sure he woulnd'tmind me copying and pasting as he's getting the credit and shares this freely....
1) Set gains
2) Set x over points
3) Repeat rules 1 and 2 till you get a balance in the system, do not worry about the stage height or if the sub is in front of you or in back of you at this time...
4) Must have at least some good music to listen to. A test disc would be best (NO HIP HOP) My 14 year old son can record better...
5) Listen for the height of the system (is it near eye level or low like mid dash or leg level)
6) flip the phase of both Mids so that they are out of phase with the horns or tweeters. Listen to the system again. You may only need to flip one mid out phase to make this work....
Remember to only do one thing at a time and right it down so that you do not repeat a step...
7) Repeat steps 4 threw 6 till you get the stage height near eye level
8) Now listen to the sub, I f the sub seems to anchor in the back of the can flip the phase on the subs and listen again...
9) Listen to the system and see if your balance is correct repeat step 1 and 2 if needed...
Then I think is when he finally hits the EQ and takes out peaks. Mic Wallace who I think having him tune my car is like the hand of God touching your stereo, hold Matt in the same esteem, so I'm guessing the guy can tune...
This is with a pretty "active" system and setup. But even if using a component set and no EQ, you still the ability to play with individual phasine and prolly attenuate drivers via little crossover plugs that many passives come with .
OK....
Here's a post by Chuck Music, Iasca big dog...
This is something I already had written for a post on SD and saved on my computer. It is about tuning by starting with polarity and going all the way through to the eq. I probably could expand on any area more if someone needs me to.
-------------------------------------
There are several different methods used to tune eqs. This is the one I use. An RTA is not needed if the steps are done correctly. This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning. I think the eq should be last in line when tuning. Remember after each step to write down your settings. If the sound gets worse, then you can go back to the previous step’s settings and start over.
1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.
2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.
3. Unhook the mids and tweeters, allowing only the midbasses to play. Listen to mono pink noise or a well-recorded song with a centered vocalist. Test CDs such as the IASCA test CD or Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 will work great. Listen to where the centered sounds are coming from. Then reverse the polarity of one midbass (Reverse the speaker wires coming from the passive crossover and going to the speaker, just flip the positive and negative wires. I usually flip the driver’s side speaker.) and re-listen to the test CD. If the sounds are more centered then keep it as is. If the centered sounds are more diffuse and un-locatable, then flip the polarity back to where it was originally.
4. Then unhook the midbasses and play the mids only and follow the same polarity and listening tests as before. Mark your best settings.
5. Do the same procedure for the tweeters.
6. When you have tested for the proper polarity from all three ranges of speakers, hook all of them back up with respect to each set of speaker’s best polarity. You can have any combination of polarity, such as all the midbass and tweeters straight and one midrange reversed.
7. Now you should have the correct “acoustic” polarity set within each set of speakers. Next is to set the acoustic polarity between the sets of speakers.
8. Listen to some very familiar music with a good range of sounds. Then flip both midbass’ polarity and listen again. Before you only flipped one midbass, now you are doing both at the same time. For example if the left midbass was reversed and the right was not before, now the left will be not reversed and the right will be. Listen to the music again. If the midbass is more powerful and full then leave the wiring as is. If the midbass sounds weaker and wrong then restore the wiring as before.
9. Perform the same listening tests while flipping the mids and tweeters, and use the wiring configuration that sounds the best.
10. If you have went though all these steps adjusting the polarity of the speakers then the system should sound really good without any eq adjustments. You might want to play with the gain adjustments on the crossover and/or amp to better blend all the speakers together.
11. Now onto the eq! The first eq step is to adjust the tonality. While listening to familiar music, adjust each individual band up and down slowly. When the music sounds better then move to the next band. Adjust the left and right bands equally. (We’ll get to the separate left and right adjustments soon.) It really does not matter if the bands are boosted or cut, just that it makes the sound better. Not every band needs to be adjusted. In fact if you did steps 1 thru 10 correctly you should not have to adjust over half the bands. Having a 1/3 octave eq does not mean you have to adjust every band. It means you have the ability to adjust each band if needed. Watch out for big jumps from band to band, like one band set to +4 and the next band set to –6.
12. Continue through all the bands, take a break, and do the same procedure over again. But this time the adjustments will be smaller as you get the tonality dialed in. This step might take several days, weeks, or longer.
13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.
14. When you are satisfied with the tonality of the system, it is time to start adjusting the left and right channels separately. These adjustments should not affect the tonality, but improve on the imaging and soundstaging. Using the Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 “My Disk” listen to the individual frequency pink noise tracks. (Test CD103 has the tracks arranged in an easier configuration.) Each frequency band should sound like it is coming from the center of the soundstage. If one band is off to one side, then use each band’s left and right eq controls as a balance control. This is very similar to the head unit’s balance control, only now you are balancing each frequency band by itself. For example if 200 Hz seems to be shifted to the left of center, lower the left 200 Hz band and raise the right 200 Hz band one dB at a time until the band is centered. If a frequency is shifted to the right, lower the band’s right channel and raise the left channel in small amounts.
15. When you have when through all the bands take a break. Then later go back through each band one by one and make any further needed adjustments until all the frequencies are lined up in the center of the soundstage.
Again, this is with a more involved system. If you're still here reading, other recommendations I'd give you would be to get a great pair of headphones and a headphone amp to use as a reference system. This can be had nowadays for $500. I haven't gotten mine yet, spending money on other things. But having some standard of the sound of music that you are familiar with definately helps. Or go hear a reference home system and take in how some songs sound. To become more familiar with the frequency range, if you have an EQ, I liek to take a frequency and boost the heck out of it just to let me recognize the sound of the frequency. That often helps me identify where the peaks are by identifying the sound.
Oh, more help in identifying "what frequency is what" if you have an EQ and for crossover setting help can be found here...
http://www.psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html
Hope this helps. Happy tuning...
This question IS NOT elementry at all. Sounds to me, though, that you're using a passive crossover with your component set. For a car, I really am a fan of having at least some EQ capabilities.
Oh and tuning is hard and takes practice and experience IMO which I'm still trying to pick up.
I'll start with a few links where some competant tuners give some advice on how they go about tuning. Pay attention to their system/way of going about doing it and use ti to the best of your ability with the equiptment/processing you have avaliable...
First here is "Matt Borgarts (one of the big dogs at Image Dynamics) rules on tuning"
Matt's rule of setting up your system. I'm sure he woulnd'tmind me copying and pasting as he's getting the credit and shares this freely....
1) Set gains
2) Set x over points
3) Repeat rules 1 and 2 till you get a balance in the system, do not worry about the stage height or if the sub is in front of you or in back of you at this time...
4) Must have at least some good music to listen to. A test disc would be best (NO HIP HOP) My 14 year old son can record better...
5) Listen for the height of the system (is it near eye level or low like mid dash or leg level)
6) flip the phase of both Mids so that they are out of phase with the horns or tweeters. Listen to the system again. You may only need to flip one mid out phase to make this work....
Remember to only do one thing at a time and right it down so that you do not repeat a step...
7) Repeat steps 4 threw 6 till you get the stage height near eye level
8) Now listen to the sub, I f the sub seems to anchor in the back of the can flip the phase on the subs and listen again...
9) Listen to the system and see if your balance is correct repeat step 1 and 2 if needed...
Then I think is when he finally hits the EQ and takes out peaks. Mic Wallace who I think having him tune my car is like the hand of God touching your stereo, hold Matt in the same esteem, so I'm guessing the guy can tune...
This is with a pretty "active" system and setup. But even if using a component set and no EQ, you still the ability to play with individual phasine and prolly attenuate drivers via little crossover plugs that many passives come with .
OK....
Here's a post by Chuck Music, Iasca big dog...
This is something I already had written for a post on SD and saved on my computer. It is about tuning by starting with polarity and going all the way through to the eq. I probably could expand on any area more if someone needs me to.
-------------------------------------
There are several different methods used to tune eqs. This is the one I use. An RTA is not needed if the steps are done correctly. This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning. I think the eq should be last in line when tuning. Remember after each step to write down your settings. If the sound gets worse, then you can go back to the previous step’s settings and start over.
1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.
2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.
3. Unhook the mids and tweeters, allowing only the midbasses to play. Listen to mono pink noise or a well-recorded song with a centered vocalist. Test CDs such as the IASCA test CD or Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 will work great. Listen to where the centered sounds are coming from. Then reverse the polarity of one midbass (Reverse the speaker wires coming from the passive crossover and going to the speaker, just flip the positive and negative wires. I usually flip the driver’s side speaker.) and re-listen to the test CD. If the sounds are more centered then keep it as is. If the centered sounds are more diffuse and un-locatable, then flip the polarity back to where it was originally.
4. Then unhook the midbasses and play the mids only and follow the same polarity and listening tests as before. Mark your best settings.
5. Do the same procedure for the tweeters.
6. When you have tested for the proper polarity from all three ranges of speakers, hook all of them back up with respect to each set of speaker’s best polarity. You can have any combination of polarity, such as all the midbass and tweeters straight and one midrange reversed.
7. Now you should have the correct “acoustic” polarity set within each set of speakers. Next is to set the acoustic polarity between the sets of speakers.
8. Listen to some very familiar music with a good range of sounds. Then flip both midbass’ polarity and listen again. Before you only flipped one midbass, now you are doing both at the same time. For example if the left midbass was reversed and the right was not before, now the left will be not reversed and the right will be. Listen to the music again. If the midbass is more powerful and full then leave the wiring as is. If the midbass sounds weaker and wrong then restore the wiring as before.
9. Perform the same listening tests while flipping the mids and tweeters, and use the wiring configuration that sounds the best.
10. If you have went though all these steps adjusting the polarity of the speakers then the system should sound really good without any eq adjustments. You might want to play with the gain adjustments on the crossover and/or amp to better blend all the speakers together.
11. Now onto the eq! The first eq step is to adjust the tonality. While listening to familiar music, adjust each individual band up and down slowly. When the music sounds better then move to the next band. Adjust the left and right bands equally. (We’ll get to the separate left and right adjustments soon.) It really does not matter if the bands are boosted or cut, just that it makes the sound better. Not every band needs to be adjusted. In fact if you did steps 1 thru 10 correctly you should not have to adjust over half the bands. Having a 1/3 octave eq does not mean you have to adjust every band. It means you have the ability to adjust each band if needed. Watch out for big jumps from band to band, like one band set to +4 and the next band set to –6.
12. Continue through all the bands, take a break, and do the same procedure over again. But this time the adjustments will be smaller as you get the tonality dialed in. This step might take several days, weeks, or longer.
13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.
14. When you are satisfied with the tonality of the system, it is time to start adjusting the left and right channels separately. These adjustments should not affect the tonality, but improve on the imaging and soundstaging. Using the Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 “My Disk” listen to the individual frequency pink noise tracks. (Test CD103 has the tracks arranged in an easier configuration.) Each frequency band should sound like it is coming from the center of the soundstage. If one band is off to one side, then use each band’s left and right eq controls as a balance control. This is very similar to the head unit’s balance control, only now you are balancing each frequency band by itself. For example if 200 Hz seems to be shifted to the left of center, lower the left 200 Hz band and raise the right 200 Hz band one dB at a time until the band is centered. If a frequency is shifted to the right, lower the band’s right channel and raise the left channel in small amounts.
15. When you have when through all the bands take a break. Then later go back through each band one by one and make any further needed adjustments until all the frequencies are lined up in the center of the soundstage.
Again, this is with a more involved system. If you're still here reading, other recommendations I'd give you would be to get a great pair of headphones and a headphone amp to use as a reference system. This can be had nowadays for $500. I haven't gotten mine yet, spending money on other things. But having some standard of the sound of music that you are familiar with definately helps. Or go hear a reference home system and take in how some songs sound. To become more familiar with the frequency range, if you have an EQ, I liek to take a frequency and boost the heck out of it just to let me recognize the sound of the frequency. That often helps me identify where the peaks are by identifying the sound.
Oh, more help in identifying "what frequency is what" if you have an EQ and for crossover setting help can be found here...
http://www.psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html
Hope this helps. Happy tuning...
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,100
Thanks...so very very important if you want all the hard work you put into installing to pay off with the best possible sound...
Like Matt Damon nabbed that guy for in Good Will Hunting, just regurgating information from others.
Like Matt Damon nabbed that guy for in Good Will Hunting, just regurgating information from others.
Originally Posted by BBOYSTEVIE
2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.
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Posts: 1,100
To KC MAXIMA Yeah guess is a tough one. All I would say is "should". With a decent set of 6.5's, and of course well dampened doors, you "should" be able to cross them over steeply at 80 hz (12-24)....
It's unfortunate so many people are limited in terms of processing. You spend your money on hopefully decent speakers, competant amps, dampening, installation hu, whatever other crap that always comes up, that it's understandable peo,ple aren't looking to add "complicated extra equiptment"...Unfortunately, you just can't be totally sure of specifics until you can get the speakers in as they're going to play, in their environments and come together in your car and with the other components(wherever they're located). A car is so not a big square room like a home theatre . Most people, I think (either luckily for them or sadly for them depending on how you look at it) are happy with a system that gets louder and sounds a lot fuller and cleaner than a stockk system, with a low end of course...and you can get that without processing. But to really get it sounding good, control over x/o points, some eq ing, if done right, really can make a system shine at another level.
This is why the Eclipse head units and some of the Alpines (and the Clarion DRZ-9255
) are getting so popular. They have a ton of effective versatile processing ability in a head unit...enough to take an otherwise good 2 way front stage with good drivers well installed/w/ appropriate power and make it sound fantastic if well tuned....at an affordable price. they're flying around used for 300 left and right. Also it opens you up to DIY...buying CHEAP, awesome drivers (dont' fear 8 ohms!) of your choice....
It's unfortunate so many people are limited in terms of processing. You spend your money on hopefully decent speakers, competant amps, dampening, installation hu, whatever other crap that always comes up, that it's understandable peo,ple aren't looking to add "complicated extra equiptment"...Unfortunately, you just can't be totally sure of specifics until you can get the speakers in as they're going to play, in their environments and come together in your car and with the other components(wherever they're located). A car is so not a big square room like a home theatre
. Most people, I think (either luckily for them or sadly for them depending on how you look at it) are happy with a system that gets louder and sounds a lot fuller and cleaner than a stockk system, with a low end of course...and you can get that without processing. But to really get it sounding good, control over x/o points, some eq ing, if done right, really can make a system shine at another level.This is why the Eclipse head units and some of the Alpines (and the Clarion DRZ-9255
) are getting so popular. They have a ton of effective versatile processing ability in a head unit...enough to take an otherwise good 2 way front stage with good drivers well installed/w/ appropriate power and make it sound fantastic if well tuned....at an affordable price. they're flying around used for 300 left and right. Also it opens you up to DIY...buying CHEAP, awesome drivers (dont' fear 8 ohms!) of your choice....
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