MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

reason not to...read

http://www.zapco.com/ZapcoBuyersBeware.htm

douche bag e-sellers are vandalizing bushwackers.....

MannyNJ2k2max

iTrader: (3)

not just high end stuff to worry about, here's MTX..'Dont be a sucker!'
http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/notAuthorized.cfm

pics of counterfits, debadged serail #'s and the such...

I'm glad manufacturers are protecting their integrity and reputation in this manner...

filtor1

iTrader: (7)

Against. Warranty and authenticity are paramount. OH yeah, and the e-douches.

danhaman

I don't know why I picked this thread to post on, after being away for months, but. . .
[and it's a bit of a rant, that parallels the posts subject]

I just bought a sub online. I thought about the negatives, but let's face it, when it comes to a simple install, like a sub, why should I pay extra to get one from a brick and mortar establishment?

Warranty? - why can't the manufacturer produce a product they can stand behind? -- what difference does it make if I put it in or a dealer does [rare exceptions requiring some specific tools, know-how, etc. . .]. If I damage the sub, don't warranty it, but if a tinsel breaks, that's shoddy manufacturing, you should cover it regardless. Working under tha assumption, that good name-brand eq is built well, why do I even need a warranty?

Free Install? - On a sub??? No thanks. Even on head units, nav, etc. . . you have to pay for the wiring harnesses, etc. . . what ever happened to splicing and soldering wires?

Technical knowledge? - The web is full of good technical knowledge. I'm not supporting folks that go to a store and check out all the eq, ask all kinds of questions, take up the time of the salesperson, and then buy online to save a few bucks. But, if you are willing to buy something on-line by word of mouth [if you live in a small town, you have to do that anyways], then you have to live with what you get. And don't get me started on bad car stereo places/chains.

So, here's what I think. If you have the know-how, and are willing to accept the inherent risks [not so large if you buy from reputable places], then why not buy online and save some money?

If it's so bad for the business, then the manufacturers should work harder to stop it [ala JL audio]. And if it's killing the brick and mortar stores, it's only because some other brick and mortar place is selling in bulk to the guys selling on-line. So, don't get mad at me, give me a reason not to buy on-line, or work harder to stop them.

Again, sorry for the rant.

dh

AscendantMax

iTrader: (7)

"why can't the manufacturer produce a product they can stand behind..."

even if the company tried their hardest to ensure a quality product, a few will still be defective due to whatever reasons. so instead of being screwed over with no warranty, i would like the option on getting another working unit under warranty.

danhaman

I won't argue with you, it works like insurance, just in case something happens to the item in the mail, I would like to be protected. Whatever happened to people standing behind their service/product? Why should we need extended warranties, they're just a rip off, but after being hosed once, you'll probably buy them [I know I do]. Why can't the post office deliver a product exactly as it was delivered to them, without charging extra? I know I live in a fantasy world, but wouldn't it be nice. . .

dh

Ohiomike1101

Most of the time, those internet shops sell at 5% over cost. They try to sell volume to make any money.

Brick and mortar stores sell so much more than just product. They sell service. U pay for the training, displays, demos, installers, 401K, etc....... It is a business just like any other. They would be out of business quickly without a markup on product.

Where do other ppl work, if they took the margin out of your employers product, you wouldn't have a job anymore.

danhaman

I'm not arguing with you on this point either, but either the manufacturers don't care, or it's other brick and mortar places who are selling to the etailers in bulk. I understand mark-up, but their killing themselves. I see holes in display boards all the time because audio shops can't afford to keep every kind of every product on hand, and have to sell what they have on hand. I've always loved car audio shops, going in and looking at all the products, but unless it's something I can't [don't have the time to] do it myself, I can't justify paying the extra cash.

dh

Pearl96Max

iTrader: (151)

[QUOTE=danhaman]I don't know why I picked this thread to post on, after being away for months, but. . .
[and it's a bit of a rant, that parallels the posts subject]
Personal attention and advice. Of course a warranty as well.

Like the websites state, AUTHENTICITY, how can a manufacturer stand behind something they didnt even build? Further more, like everything in life things do occasionally break.

A "free install" is just more incentive for those purchasing, they feel more confortable with a knowledgable person doing it. As well as in alot of cases Extending the manufacturer warranty.

Business/store owners typically go through extensive training especially on higher end products, so they know first hand all the pros and cons associated with it. They can also give advice to better suit your needs as a consumer.

Spend $500 on a product and install it properly and it still breaks, do you feel confortable with your investment now? If you wanna gamble thats your choice. I myself perfer Vegas or AC.

The do try hard, but if they dont know where its origin is, it makes it pretty difficult to stop. Considering alot of counterfeits are out there as well, how are they to stop that? It does kill the "Brick&Mortar" stores, considering the online sales have minimal If Any overhead. Stores have leases,employees,insurance,utilities,etc and so forth.

A reason to nopt buy online? Personal service,you can see the person selling to you,less likely theyll be out of business the next day or under a new name that you cannot pursue, Usually extended warranties, not having to ship something acorss the country for service/help,etc...the reasons can easily multiply.

No need for an apology. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings and opinions.

danhaman

Pearl, those are good reasons to by locally, but not good enough, imo. If you are thinking about an off the wall, show car type set-up, then absolutely, go to a specialist. If you must have a front stage that sits at eye level and is flat as a board, and don't have the rta's, o-scopes, etc. . . to help, then a custom shop is the way to go. BUT, if you just want a nice system, a loud system, or just want to do it all yourself to see if you can, you can't beat the [trustworthy] etailers.

I won't go in with the assumption that my stuff is going to break, so I don't care about extended warranties [for those of you who like to push their eq, maybe you should buy locally]. I would like to think that even if I bought online, if there is a manufacture defect, that most companies would at least work with you to get them fixed. Maybe not, I'll let you know when I have something break on me -- again, a risk I'm willing to take [and by the business etailers do, I would suspect most people are willing to take that risk also].

As for personal attention, if it's something you want and/or can use, by all means go local - just don't get the personal attention, and then buy online, that's just rude. If you don't know what you want, and could use a trained pro's advice for what set up would work best, then go for it. But again, most people trust boards like this one to keep them from buying something that won't work well for them [some don't find out that they could get good advice BEFORE they bought something, though].

I'm also not too fond of audio shops 'pushing' their line only. Of course, there's always bad businesses, and usually you can find a good place that is really willing to help you out, and will be truthful even if it means sending you to another store for a product more suitable for your install [or at least offering you an alternative].

I agree that some manufacturers are fighting the etail fight, but many others have yet to jump on-board, or at least haven't put enough into the fight, yet. I don't think they will be able to stop it completely, at least not any time soon, but only time will tell.

I've had an a custom set up done, from a local shop who did a very good job, but what I really learned from it, was that I could do an install about as good for much less money, and have done that ever since. Of course, I don't compete, so good enough, is good enough.

dh

2 Da Max

iTrader: (2)

wow i cant believe ppl are counterfitting something as good as zapco..

seventy5impala

iTrader: (6)

well, interesting as far as companies selling scratched of serial items and new items just not as an authorized dealer online, its like 2 completly diffrent things.... some companies do stand behind there product even if not purchased from an authorized retailer, like kicker for 3 months....givin u get it for 2 years(1 for speakers) when purchased from an authorized dealer...but its definatly a risk, cause who scratches numbers and who doesnt, who knows till u get the item(a gamble as don mentioned above I gambled twice and won with etailers for example a kicker 650.4, sells for 499.99 at circuit city, got mine for 230 shipped over a year and a half ago from etailer on ebay..like gambling its an odds game if u find a good reputable etailer, whats the chances u get one of those lemons or damanaged in shipping?)... 1 thing i wouldnt reccomend is buyin from individuals on ebay. grrrrr recently shafted myself in area.....

danhaman

You're exactly right, most reputable etailers will even work with you if something is wrong with your purchase, because they want your repeat business also, or just to avoid negative feedback. There are definitely pitfalls out there, but I see places like theZeb and Ikesound much like a catalog version of Walmart, they sell in bulk and can mark down the price of their goods to make it worthwhile.

dh

slickrick

iTrader: (12)

see ikesound is fishy...i live literally 5 minutes from their "warehouse" yet about 2 years ago they refused to let me pick up anything and made me pay $20 in shipping charges for a small amp. thezeb is an authorized online store so i would not put it in the same category as ikesound...unless ike got authorized in the past months?

seventy5impala

iTrader: (6)

humm thats odd, pry closer too 3 years ago, i was able too pick up an amp from ikes sound, i dunno where they are now, but they were right in pelican bays.... but i was going to purchase something from them more recently....and they told me this, that i couldnt pick up, although they did tell me i could call and get a discounted shipping rate because i was so close... butt, charging high shipping rates is notorius amonst ebayers... in all catagories, i had too pay 30 bucks for UPS ground on a stupid cell phone, even my nokya headlights for the max, was around 10 bucks for shipping but they wouldnt combine(due too the money they make on the extra shipping charges, he even told me this), so for the harness i woulda had too pay another 10... i said screw the harness heh...

danhaman

I know some are 'authorized' while others aren't, but what's the difference? [I know you get the warranty and are usually much more reputable, but. . .] It still damages the ability of the brick&mortar places to stay competitive. Sounddomain price matches, so what's the difference between them putting the local guys out of business or the fly-by-night ebay stores doing it? They're still doing the damage, so what's the big deal if someone buys eq from an etailer whether it's authorized or not [granted it makes sense to use the authorized guys]; it shouldn't be any better for the business of etailing, right?

dh

Pearl96Max

iTrader: (151)

The Authorized etailers have guidlines to follow with pricing. Which is intended to stay somewhat competitve with actual stores. I actually got shopped by a few customers compared to internet sites. I immediately called the manufacturers of those that were involved and a price change took place on a few instances. Manufacturers try their best to avoid this, but they have alot of other things to concern themselves with as well ie: manufacturing,R&D,marketing,bookkeeping,salaries,e tc...

Crutchfield is a perfect example of how etailers should actually work. They have kept their prices within the guidelines established originally with the manufacturer. Alot of people claim Crutchfield to be expensive, but compared to what? Fleabay? Certainly not local stores.

danhaman

I agree, crutchfield is one of the better etailers, and JL is one of the better manufacturers, but who can afford to charge a veritable premium for goods that someone else is selling way below msrp? I'd gladly pay a little more to buy from a reputable online dealer, but not a lot more [certainly not near double the price].

Again, I don't blame manufacturers, nor the brick&mortar guys, who have all kinds of extra expenses, but that didn't help mom&pop grocery stores when big ol' Super Walmart came in and undercut them. I hate to see the local audio shops go under, but it's tough for them to compete.

dh

filtor1

iTrader: (7)

All of this is actually kind of sad for car audio enthusiasts. The quality of workmanship will steadily decline. The installers will become more rare as the living they once made will be reduced to keeping their heads above water. IMO, internet purchases, even with their inherent risks, are hurting the industry as far as overall quality in the name of efficiency and the bottom line. Everyone asks me why I don't open my own shop. This is why. I don't want to loose my main method of income and have to install equipment purchased over the internet. These items will end up costing me a good reputation due to defective merchandise and or substandard knockoffs. I believe in capitalism and the effective methods and advancements made due to the industrial revolution. It just seems to be hurting the car audio industries reputation and the ability for an average shop owner to stay in business. If you were a non etailer/small business owner, you would feel the squeeze created by the etailer price wars. After giving your all to your business and the surrounding community, they repay you buy taking your expertise and experience and not paying you far that.

I live in a very small town where everyone is a small business owner. Most of which understand that when you don't support other local businesses, the other businesses don't support yours. Lose lose IMO. I chose to purchase my equipment from a local shop. I don't mind that I paid $900 for my amp. Lifetime warranty, I can actually talk to someone about any issues I am having, and most of all I helped my community. Without customers like me, they would possibly go without. I feel confident that I have done my part in helping people in my area.

I know I might have an old fashioned point of view. I have purchased things from ebay in the past to cut personal cost. However, that was before I wanted to open my own business and was shown what happens on that level when people are more concerned with the price than the overall good of the people they live around.

The flip side is, yes I am a hypocrite, am forced to shop at WallMart now. I can't afford not to. The smaller mom and pop stores that used to try and compete with them are all closed. There aren't any more competitors around. Walmart has taken several small business with owners that depended on that income to run their families and giving them jobs paying a bit over minimum wage. Great move. No. Kill the local guy to lowered the price of a product 50 cents. Now WalMart is filthy rich and took 4 or 5 families down with it.

Sorry for the rant. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I have seen first hand what this kind of "advancement" does to a family. Just kind of sad.

danhaman

You are 100% right, and that's kind of my point, as the etailers kill the small business, the lack of local audio shops reduces the amount of publicity for the product [fewer sound-offs, car shows, etc. . .], effecting the manufacturers. It's a lose/lose just like you said, so where does it stop? If we all buy locally, that would do it. Of course, if we would refuse to pay >$100 a ticket to a pro sporting event, the owners wouldn't make as much and wouldn't be willing to pay a [insert superstar salary maker here] a hundred and umpteen million dollars. . . but, will we as a people do that. . .no. Just look at Walmart, etc. . .the bottom line is 'how much will it cost me?'.

The manufacturers could help by hunting out the folks who are selling to etailers in bulk [and stop selling product to etailers directly], but they already have huge overheads, etc. . . The local store could discount to compete with the etailer, but they, too have overhead, and not nearly the bulk number of sales to compete, and stay solvent.

It all sucks, but here I am buying a sub online for $210 when the local guys want $330. And don't forget the [nearly] online only products, who can cut costs by getting rid of the middle man.

It's not a pretty picture, but at least the local guys have been keeping up so far, mostly by the dedicated folks who want the expertise the store is willing to give, and are willing to pay extra to keep them around.

dh

filtor1

iTrader: (7)

Agreed. I think the manufactures job is very difficult as well. It is impossible to illuminate forgeries in other countries and very difficult in the US. They will never have the ability to control laws in the countries that thrive on this type of activity.

I hope that the large majority of retailers are actually trying to curb selling to etailers to help even things out. IMO, they are doing the market an injustice in the long run. Saturation has never brought lasting positive financial results. I wish they would learn from the past. It may be what we need to save this hobby from becoming "cheap".

Glad your here Dan. Good thread.