Foam filling the chassis
04-13-2005, 12:50 PM
#1
Foam filling the chassis
So I found the SCC article about filling a 300ZX chassis with foam, and I liked what I read. I got the idea from Matt, and it looks like a good project for everybody here. Here's the link
It's near the bottom of the page.
They don't mention a price however. Matt, if you're reading this, do you remember about how much it cost you do to this? Have any tips for doing the project?
Sounds like it has the same effects of SFCs, but could be a lot cheaper and easier to install. What do you guys think?
It's near the bottom of the page.
They don't mention a price however. Matt, if you're reading this, do you remember about how much it cost you do to this? Have any tips for doing the project?
Sounds like it has the same effects of SFCs, but could be a lot cheaper and easier to install. What do you guys think?
04-13-2005, 02:13 PM
#3
BTW- Reading through the article again, they said they used 2 lb per cubic foot density foam, but it's available up to 10 lb per cubic foot. If they 2 lb version can stiffer up the 300ZX chassis by up to 40%, I would assume the 10 lb version would be even more effective with few, if any, downsides.
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
04-13-2005, 05:23 PM
#6
I actually emailed the guys from OG Racing, who are all top auto-x drivers around here and OG racing is, of course, a RACE shop (helmets, seats, harnesses, stuff like that)...
the guys there said they knew of subframe foaming, but had never seen it done...
so was that absolutely no help, or what ?
the guys there said they knew of subframe foaming, but had never seen it done...
so was that absolutely no help, or what ?
04-13-2005, 05:54 PM
#7
i meant the foam was expensive. http://www.foamseal.com/auto_after_ordering.htm
They used 5 kits @ $ 34.00 each + shipping @ $ 13.00 = $ 183.00. That's a lotta hooch!
http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108496
They used 5 kits @ $ 34.00 each + shipping @ $ 13.00 = $ 183.00. That's a lotta hooch!
http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108496
04-13-2005, 09:28 PM
#9
Originally Posted by 95maxrider
I would assume the 10 lb version would be even more effective with few, if any, downsides.
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
I also think the benefits of this stuff would be most significant outside the reach of the SFC's. If prepped properly the entire rail could be filled from bumper to bumper. This would strengthen the most integral areas of the frame rails. The frame layout on most production cars, including the max is such that you basically end up with a finger of rectangular tube holding up each wheel. Filling this tube would be awesome. I am very interested in doing this but I need to get SFC's and LTB before I make my decision. The weight of those two alone will be significant enough to undo a majority of my weight saving efforts. The foam would more than likely add at least 30lbs to the car with the 10lb stuff but the chassis would be extremely vaultish. But the combination of SFC's, FSTB, RSTB, LTB and Foam would be pure bliss to drive no matter the suspension.
04-13-2005, 09:49 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Broaner
Weight of the 10lb stuff would be significant. I think the only people that should be considering this are people that already have SFC's. I say this because it would be pretty much impossible to weld the SFC's on after the foam was in the rail. This stuff is probably highly flamable. If you can do the SFC install yourself and have a way to get the car up in the air but with the frame not twisted go for it. But no real shop is going to weld with foam right behind the metal they're welding.
I also think the benefits of this stuff would be most significant outside the reach of the SFC's. If prepped properly the entire rail could be filled from bumper to bumper. This would strengthen the most integral areas of the frame rails. The frame layout on most production cars, including the max is such that you basically end up with a finger of rectangular tube holding up each wheel. Filling this tube would be awesome. I am very interested in doing this but I need to get SFC's and LTB before I make my decision. The weight of those two alone will be significant enough to undo a majority of my weight saving efforts. The foam would more than likely add at least 30lbs to the car with the 10lb stuff but the chassis would be extremely vaultish. But the combination of SFC's, FSTB, RSTB, LTB and Foam would be pure bliss to drive no matter the suspension.
I also think the benefits of this stuff would be most significant outside the reach of the SFC's. If prepped properly the entire rail could be filled from bumper to bumper. This would strengthen the most integral areas of the frame rails. The frame layout on most production cars, including the max is such that you basically end up with a finger of rectangular tube holding up each wheel. Filling this tube would be awesome. I am very interested in doing this but I need to get SFC's and LTB before I make my decision. The weight of those two alone will be significant enough to undo a majority of my weight saving efforts. The foam would more than likely add at least 30lbs to the car with the 10lb stuff but the chassis would be extremely vaultish. But the combination of SFC's, FSTB, RSTB, LTB and Foam would be pure bliss to drive no matter the suspension.
04-14-2005, 10:26 AM
#11
As I said, if prepped properly the rails could be filled from bumper to bumper. The section of rails under the cabin don't have very much hollow area but where they extend out to the front and rear it opens up substaintially. I'd even be willing to venture that filling the rails under the cabin would be worthless with SFC's. It would only be there to add weight. A rough estimate from memory has me thinking the cavity is up to 4"x4" in some areas. Also, SCC filled the rocker panels. That seems really excessive to me. If you ever had any body damage on the panels the repair would be complicated 10 fold.
BTW, I wasn't implying you when I said, "I think the only people that should be considering this are people that already have SFC's." I was just laying that thought out there for people that were considering this as a cheaper and easier option to SFC's. This should be the final step for chassis stiffening. I'd like to get LTB and SFC's on this summer and then will evaluate the handling/chassis stiffness.
One comment about all these things, the weight of each is most detrimental to the acceleration. Handling would be negatively effected due to increased mass of the vehicle but the COG would be lowered. So the tires and brakes would be doing more work but the car would be more stable.
BTW, I wasn't implying you when I said, "I think the only people that should be considering this are people that already have SFC's." I was just laying that thought out there for people that were considering this as a cheaper and easier option to SFC's. This should be the final step for chassis stiffening. I'd like to get LTB and SFC's on this summer and then will evaluate the handling/chassis stiffness.
One comment about all these things, the weight of each is most detrimental to the acceleration. Handling would be negatively effected due to increased mass of the vehicle but the COG would be lowered. So the tires and brakes would be doing more work but the car would be more stable.
04-14-2005, 09:05 PM
#12
I actually wrote Matt last year on this but wasn't ready to go back then. I was planning on doing this with him while down there for Maxus. How bout we do a group buy since it looks like a few people on on board?
The ITW Foamseal looks like the lightweight stuff. Matt used similar stuff from a local frame/repair shop and did his rails, door pillars, and even the roof edges IIRC.
The Bellco urethane seems to be the heavier stuff and I've run across that mentioned in some of the Japanese applications.
HandiFoam is mentioned on the Sentra link but it might not be the same product. One site mentions it not being flamable which really appeals to me for future body work, SFC's, rollcages, etc.
The ITW Foamseal looks like the lightweight stuff. Matt used similar stuff from a local frame/repair shop and did his rails, door pillars, and even the roof edges IIRC.
The Bellco urethane seems to be the heavier stuff and I've run across that mentioned in some of the Japanese applications.
HandiFoam is mentioned on the Sentra link but it might not be the same product. One site mentions it not being flamable which really appeals to me for future body work, SFC's, rollcages, etc.
04-14-2005, 09:49 PM
#13
with the 2lb stuff scc did the 300zx and they said it added 12lbs. Im going to do this to my maxima after i get all the underbody rust fixed. It also seals out water and dirt over time you will have rot from inside out (mine already started)
this has so many benifits super sound deadening ,when filling rocker panels i bet crash protection is much better. will stop rust in hollow areas no more excess to water or air. and the chassis strengh goes up alot for 10-15lbs its well worth it to me.
this same foam is in high end mercedes and infinitis stock.
this has so many benifits super sound deadening ,when filling rocker panels i bet crash protection is much better. will stop rust in hollow areas no more excess to water or air. and the chassis strengh goes up alot for 10-15lbs its well worth it to me.
this same foam is in high end mercedes and infinitis stock.
04-14-2005, 10:37 PM
#14
As Bejay said (btw, that was about 3-4 weeks ago, not last year. 
)
The stuff I used was leftover foam from an Infiniti Q45 frame repair job. I unfortunately don't know the brand or the specs on it. a friend called me and said they bought a bunch of it for a frame repair job on a Q and they already had it open, so gut my car and bring it down.
I did the rails under the cabin and the door pillars. that's it. I did notice a difference, but most of the difference was actually in road noise. MUCH less noise. the frame was stiffer, but nothing like the SFCs or a LTB..
then again, I don't know the specs on this stuff so I can't say a lot about it. this may have been no better than the cheapo spray stuff you get at the hardware store, but I'm pretty sure it's something similar to the 2lb/ft stuff used in the Z.
)The stuff I used was leftover foam from an Infiniti Q45 frame repair job. I unfortunately don't know the brand or the specs on it. a friend called me and said they bought a bunch of it for a frame repair job on a Q and they already had it open, so gut my car and bring it down.
I did the rails under the cabin and the door pillars. that's it. I did notice a difference, but most of the difference was actually in road noise. MUCH less noise. the frame was stiffer, but nothing like the SFCs or a LTB..
then again, I don't know the specs on this stuff so I can't say a lot about it. this may have been no better than the cheapo spray stuff you get at the hardware store, but I'm pretty sure it's something similar to the 2lb/ft stuff used in the Z.
04-15-2005, 07:22 AM
#15
Originally Posted by krismax
with the 2lb stuff scc did the 300zx and they said it added 12lbs. Im going to do this to my maxima after i get all the underbody rust fixed. It also seals out water and dirt over time you will have rot from inside out (mine already started)
this has so many benifits super sound deadening ,when filling rocker panels i bet crash protection is much better. will stop rust in hollow areas no more excess to water or air. and the chassis strengh goes up alot for 10-15lbs its well worth it to me.
this same foam is in high end mercedes and infinitis stock.
this has so many benifits super sound deadening ,when filling rocker panels i bet crash protection is much better. will stop rust in hollow areas no more excess to water or air. and the chassis strengh goes up alot for 10-15lbs its well worth it to me.
this same foam is in high end mercedes and infinitis stock.
So who is down for a group deal?
04-15-2005, 05:53 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
As Bejay said (btw, that was about 3-4 weeks ago, not last year. )
)P.S. Got your Stage1 LTB installed and works great. After recent cornerweighting and 2 alignments things feel pretty taught.
04-15-2005, 08:28 PM
#17
Timing is everything. Getting in on a GD is not a possibility for me at this point. Nor do I think this type of thing will ever be a feasible GD.
Matt, what is your current price on the Stage II LTB(A32)? Also, do you have two piece rotors for your front BBK kit yet? What is the price on that?
Matt, what is your current price on the Stage II LTB(A32)? Also, do you have two piece rotors for your front BBK kit yet? What is the price on that?
04-18-2005, 07:28 AM
#18
Damn Bejay! I have to dump my PM box every 2 weeks!.. I may have them on file somewhere, but would have to look those up. I just save everything to a .txt file and delete all the stuff in my PM box. way too many PMs to try to save.
Broaner, the STage II is $175 + 15 ship. I have some 4 gen stage II bars in stock.
2-pc rotors are still in design. I have the discs here, but need to finish doing the CAD work on the hat and get them to the machine shop..
Broaner, the STage II is $175 + 15 ship. I have some 4 gen stage II bars in stock.
2-pc rotors are still in design. I have the discs here, but need to finish doing the CAD work on the hat and get them to the machine shop..
04-18-2005, 10:01 AM
#19
I'll be in for those brakes when you get them. What will be the price of the BBK once you get the two-piece rotors fabbed? Did you order the discs? Or did you make them yourself somehow? That would be insane.
Do you forsee another GD on the LTB any time soon? Or at least is the price remaining at $175 for a while?
Do you forsee another GD on the LTB any time soon? Or at least is the price remaining at $175 for a while?
04-18-2005, 10:24 AM
#20
The price will stay at $175 on them for a while, but I plan on doing a GD when I get the rest of my current batch made up. hopefully I will/won't sell out of all of them.
they're a PITA to make, but they are good money. it takes me usually a week to make a batch of 10 bars.. so I'm making 10 for each generation and I'll see how far that takes me.
price on the BBK with the 2 pc rotors will be sligthly dependent on the total cost of the parts... I order the discs themselves from Coleman. custom made for me. costs about $300 a set for them. I'm doing the CAD work on the hats now and will have a fab shop make them for me. I don't have the CNC equipment to make that kind of stuff (rotors or hats). sure wish I did!
they're a PITA to make, but they are good money.
it takes me usually a week to make a batch of 10 bars.. so I'm making 10 for each generation and I'll see how far that takes me.price on the BBK with the 2 pc rotors will be sligthly dependent on the total cost of the parts... I order the discs themselves from Coleman. custom made for me. costs about $300 a set for them. I'm doing the CAD work on the hats now and will have a fab shop make them for me. I don't have the CNC equipment to make that kind of stuff (rotors or hats). sure wish I did!
04-20-2005, 07:09 AM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,105
my question about filling the chassis, is where do you start? there are what, 3 holes in the frame rail (that i've paid attention to) on either side...jack up the car, tape 2 holes shut and spray? drill a hole through the floor pan and pour stuff in? i'm totally clueless but i'm interested in doing this sometime relatively soon.
it was mentioned that you could almost foam from bumper to bumper...how about a diagram? (text in MS paint would work for me..haha). like i said i'm clueless but interested.
it was mentioned that you could almost foam from bumper to bumper...how about a diagram? (text in MS paint would work for me..haha). like i said i'm clueless but interested.
04-20-2005, 06:49 PM
#22
the questions was raised by Rob (dblrr900, a 5th genner around here), whose wife is a chemical engineer or something like that:
what are the side-effects of foaming the chassis, assuming no moisture is caught in there.....the point could be made that when the car's chassis goes from hot (summer) to very cold (winter) the metal contracts and expands. The question is, does the foam contract and expand at the same rate (or at all?)...if not, there could be conceivable problems with undue stress on the frame, components, etc...
just a thought...playing a little devil's advocate, since most of the cars that seem to have done this are dedicated track cars and/or are not cars that will ever be out driving in 10 below zero temperatures....
what are the side-effects of foaming the chassis, assuming no moisture is caught in there.....the point could be made that when the car's chassis goes from hot (summer) to very cold (winter) the metal contracts and expands. The question is, does the foam contract and expand at the same rate (or at all?)...if not, there could be conceivable problems with undue stress on the frame, components, etc...
just a thought...playing a little devil's advocate, since most of the cars that seem to have done this are dedicated track cars and/or are not cars that will ever be out driving in 10 below zero temperatures....
04-20-2005, 09:17 PM
#23
I wouldn't worry about the temperature effects of this stuff.
it's *usually* not strong enough to cause damage to the chassis, and the metal itself doesn't really expand and contract that much that it would cause issues with temperature.
they see what, -10F to 150F worst case?
thermal expansion coefficient of steel is 6.817 e-6 in/in/*F at 80*f...
assume 80 is the average temp (above number changes with temperature)..
assume a 12 ft long car and a temp swing of 160*F, that comes up to about 0.15"
so that's about 1/8" from end to end of the car assuming it's all steel.
I wouldn't be too worried about it...
it's *usually* not strong enough to cause damage to the chassis, and the metal itself doesn't really expand and contract that much that it would cause issues with temperature.
they see what, -10F to 150F worst case?
thermal expansion coefficient of steel is 6.817 e-6 in/in/*F at 80*f...
assume 80 is the average temp (above number changes with temperature)..
assume a 12 ft long car and a temp swing of 160*F, that comes up to about 0.15"
so that's about 1/8" from end to end of the car assuming it's all steel.
I wouldn't be too worried about it...
04-21-2005, 11:05 AM
#24
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
I wouldn't worry about the temperature effects of this stuff.
it's *usually* not strong enough to cause damage to the chassis, and the metal itself doesn't really expand and contract that much that it would cause issues with temperature.
they see what, -10F to 150F worst case?
thermal expansion coefficient of steel is 6.817 e-6 in/in/*F at 80*f...
assume 80 is the average temp (above number changes with temperature)..
assume a 12 ft long car and a temp swing of 160*F, that comes up to about 0.15"
so that's about 1/8" from end to end of the car assuming it's all steel.
I wouldn't be too worried about it...
it's *usually* not strong enough to cause damage to the chassis, and the metal itself doesn't really expand and contract that much that it would cause issues with temperature.
they see what, -10F to 150F worst case?
thermal expansion coefficient of steel is 6.817 e-6 in/in/*F at 80*f...
assume 80 is the average temp (above number changes with temperature)..
assume a 12 ft long car and a temp swing of 160*F, that comes up to about 0.15"
so that's about 1/8" from end to end of the car assuming it's all steel.
I wouldn't be too worried about it...
05-04-2005, 09:39 PM
#25
I have been and remain very interested in chassis-stiffening foam. I did a big search of the web a few months ago and came up with the below thread claiming that something called "hathane" is better than the Foamseal stuff...however, searching for "hathane" come up with...not bloody much...
http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?...TOPIC_ID=20798
http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?...TOPIC_ID=20798
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