JwaxMax99

iTrader: (14)

Anyone hear/read about the Top Tire gasoline formula. BMW General Motors Toyota and Honda have a standard for their cars gasoline requirements. I guess many of the gas stations out there are selling inferior gasoline. It has been on the national news about this lately. There has been a rash of fuel injector clogging and other fuel related problems. Here is a list of the only gasoline brands to pass the tests standards set by BMW,General Motors, Toyota and Honda. Go here. http://www.toptiergas.com Shell is the only gas stations gas to pass here in Wisconsin.......

SilverMax_04

The key quote from that site is:
"Over the past several years, the minimum level of detergent additive required by the EPA has declined by an estimated 50%." This happened because of two factors: 1) For a long time gasoline prices were depressed and oil companies cut prices to try and sell volume -- they also cut the additive treat in their gasoline to reduce the cost of the gasoline. 2) Then gasoline supply got tight and oil companies could sell all of the gasoline they made -- they did not need to compete by bringing back the higher additive levels in their gasoline. The Auto companies fought back with this plan for "Top Tier" gasoline. I've seen some discussion of this in other circles. Some oil companies (that make good gasoline) will not be participating in "Top Tier" because of other restrictions in the plan. I can't remember the details, but don't expect to see all companies that make good gasoline listed on this site.

So, what's a Max owner to do? In other threads on this site I've advised that all Max owners need to start their own fuel system maintenance program. I recommend using a bottle of quality fuel injector cleaner (like Chevron's Techron) in you gas tank just before you plan to do an oil change. This will give you a better clean-up treatment than you will get from "Top Tier" gasoline -- which only requires a "keep-clean" treatment dose in the gasoline.

Why do the treatment just before an oil change? Two reasons: 1) You are good at doing oil changes based on the mileage, and your fuel system needs the same consistency. 2) There are reports in the trade press that this level of gasoline treatment will cause your motor oil to increase in viscosity. So do the treatment and then change the oil.

For a discussion of fuel injector cleaners go to this thread on this site (particularly my posts # 32, 34 & 36):
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....2&page=1&pp=30

For a discussion of engine knock (helped by fuel injector cleaners) and octane, go to this thread on this site (particularly Post #29 through Post # 32):
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....6&page=1&pp=30

Hope this helps.

JwaxMax99

iTrader: (14)

Excellent information, Thanks!

jackiss2888

iTrader: (3)

yea, good call guys.

NismoMax80

iTrader: (6)

http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.ph...1&postcount=34

NOCturnalI30

iTrader: (1)

Wait shell is good gass??? I thought mobil was the best and exxon???? im confussed??

SilverMax_04

What don't you understand about this sentence?

Some oil companies (that make good gasoline) will not be participating in "Top Tier" because of other restrictions in the plan. I can't remember the details, but don't expect to see all companies that make good gasoline listed on this site.

My post also told you the reasons for gasoline detergent treatment levels to be so low. Re-read my post.

BK1

iTrader: (2)

Yes, those are all good...but the others are better....so hard to find 76, chevron, shell in NYC though.

NOCturnalI30

iTrader: (1)

I did not know that hmmm im gona try shell next time and see how it feels. My dad uses nothing but shell and i thought he was just crazy hmmmm maybe i should listen to him more often

bigEL

Quote from BP/Amoco site:http://subsites.bp.com/ultimate/us/a...s_standard.htm

"In terms of detergency, Amoco Ultimate exceeds the automakers Top Tier program specifications. Top Tier is only about detergency and is not a comprehensive measure of fuel quality or performance. Amoco Ultimate goes beyond Top Tier by removing deposit-forming impurities at the refinery, exceeding industry standards for drivability and offering a low sulfur content ahead of Federal requirements.

All our gasolines meet or exceed the quality requirements of government regulations and our customers – which includes the automakers.

BP continues to look at the Top Tier proposal, but we are not yet convinced that it offers our customers everything they want. There are other ways to exceed customer expectations for quality. For example,

BP guarantees every gallon of Amoco gasolines we sell – in writing.
We also offer customers an option to reduce the pollution their vehicles create by offering an ultra low sulfur gasoline option.

For the past 25 years consumers have voted Amoco gasolines number one in quality and we intend to maintain that rating."

NismoMax80

iTrader: (6)

so you're telling me the extra $.15 a gallon is worth it? I'm paying $2.24 for Premium at Sam's Club. New BP right by my house has the Ultimate for $2.39 a gallon. Maybe I'll get their 6% off gas credit card and use it until the promo ends.
A few say they noticed a difference... I'll run a few tanks and see if MPG changes at all.

SilverMax_04

I worked for Amoco for 35 years and retired (in 1998) just before the company was sold to BP. When I worked there, Ultimate gasoline sold in the US East, South and parts of the Midwest was a specially refined premium gasoline. Amoco went through an extra refining step and put all Ultimate gasoline at refineries supplying those areas of the country through what was know as a "re-run tower" to remove impurities that make undied unleaded gasoline look yellow (some in the industry called it cow-**** yellow). Because of these impurities, most refiners put a die in their gasoline to give it a more pleasing color. Ultimate gasoline from these refineries looks like water when put in a clear glass jar. No other gasoline can make that statement. Because of this extra refining step, Ultimate must be carefully segregated in all common carrier product pipelines (most gasolines in these pipelines are all pumped together because they all meet a common specification). Is Ultimate worth all of this trouble? There are many customers who believe so and the company continues to spend more money refining and transporting this special premium gasoline. Here in Colorado (and in some other states), BP (Amoco) gets their gasoline (including their Ultimate brand of premium) from other refiners and it does not go through this extra refining step.

The claim about 25 years is understating the record. For all 35 years I worked for Amoco, the Ultimate gasoline was voted tops in quality. (When I first started with the company the premium gasoline was called "Amoco Super Premium" and was only available in the East and South. It was later expanded to the Midwest and given the Ultimate name. But they also use that same name for premium that does not get the extra refining step.)

I don't know about the current blending practices that BP uses for Ultimate, but for many years it contained substantial quantities of Heavy Ultraformate (a high-octane blending component that Amoco used for premium gasoline). The important word here is "Heavy." The heavier a gasoline is per gallon, the more energy it contains. The more energy, the better the mileage.

Finally, reread the BP statement. It says that the detergent level in Ultimate exceeds government specifications. It does not say that about the other grades of BP gasoline. Thus, if you use Ultimate, you will probably keep the injectors (and other internal parts) of your engine clean. Otherwise, you need to periodically do a clean-up using a good fuel injector cleaner like Chevron's Techron (follow the directions on the bottle and do just before an oil change).

NismoMax80

iTrader: (6)

So how do I know if the Ultimate here in PA is "the good stuff"? Should pump some into a container to see if it's clear? I recall readin on their site some locals are not always clear but it doesn't mean it's inferior.

KCMaxima98

iTrader: (4)

Im curious as to whether or not the premium Amoco gas in KS is the good stuff too. Amoco/BP is the only place around here that sells 92 octane gas. Everyone else sells 91 max, so I tend to fill up at BP. I didn't know that they weren't "top tier" rated but I always suspected that the quality of the gas wasn't the reason that BP isn't part of that program.

NOCturnalI30

iTrader: (1)

Whenever i put bp my car drives like crap sorry man mobil all the way for me dude

SilverMax_04

All of PA should all be "good stuff." But you are correct that the easiest test is to put some in a clear glass jar and look at it.

Kansas is more of a problem. The Ultimate in the Kansas City area should come from the Whiting Refinery and be "good stuff." Further west in Kansas the gasoline is likely bought from another refiner and then sold under the BP brand with the BP addative package injected into the gasolie. That does not make it "bad," but it will not have the extra refining step.

All of you can try asking the station attendant whether the Ultimate they sell is "Crystal Clear" -- which was the name that Amoco used for years to advertise this gasoline. Some of them may know what you are asking -- or they can check with the station owner to find out.

SilverMax_04

That is always the best policy -- find a gasoline that works well for you and stick with it. In the case of BP gasoline, I suspect one of three things may have happened to you:

- The BP station (s) you buy from were sneaking in some other brand of gasoline and possibly not even 93 octane. Independently owned stations will try to do this to cheat the public (charge a higher price for Crystal Clear Ultimate) and make more money (by getting the gasoline they are selling cheaper from another company). If caught, the owner risks losing BP as a branded supplier. But NYC is probably the worst for stations playing "tricks" like that.

- The times you bought BP's Ultimate there were problems with the batch in the terminal that supplied the station, and it may have been somewhat off-spec, but not enough to cause the gasoline to be returned to the refinery (a costly process). This is rare, but does happen. Again, because of the congestion and small terminals in the NYC area, this is much more of a problem there than elsewhere in the US.

- Your particular engine simply does not like to burn "Crystal Clear Ultimate Gasoline." While this is even more rare, it does happen.

Finally, I should say that Mobil -- the market leader in NYC -- has larger facilities (pipelines and terminals) and therefore less problems than other brands in that city. I'm not surprised that you find their gasoline to work best for you. But don't assume that other brands outside of NYC are not worth trying.

NismoMax80

iTrader: (6)

SilverMax_04,
thanks for the info. So I take it your 6th Gen is sunning on "the Clear"? if so, it's doing well?
Next week I'm gonna start getting it.

SilverMax_04

Remember, I live in Colorado and BP only has Crystal Clear Ultimate in the East, South and Midwest (see my earlier explanation of Kansas to see how tricky even the Midwest is for finding Crystal Clear). Turns out that BP is abandoing gasoline marketing in all of Colorado. Amoco closed the refinery that supplied Colorado back in the early 1980s and since then all Amoco (and later BP) gasoline sold here has been bought from other refiners. When I still worked for Amoco, I knew which companies they were buying from, but not any more.

I should point out that when a company buys gasoline supply from another company, that gasoline must meet all appropriate specs for that product -- particularly octane. The purchasing company usually insists that their own additive package be injected into this gasoline. But when you want Crystal Clear Ultimate gasoline, only BP refineries make that special product. And to my knowledge, only the refineries that BP bought from Amoco. I don't think it is being made in BP's California refinery, for example.

JwaxMax99

iTrader: (14)

The gas stations here were caught, it was on TV, putting half Premium(93) and half 89 octane to fill their premium station tanks!!!!!!!

KCMaxima98

iTrader: (4)

Well, since I have had the max I have always used the 92 here in KC from BP/Amoco and have never had any problems. They offer a slightly higher octane for the same price as the next guy and they have this "free gas for life" promotion going on right now. If you fill up with ultimate, you get a scratcher card. I have yet to win anything. Im hoping for one of the lower end prizes like a ten dollar gas card

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

I have been using BP/Amoco in my Max for the past 2-3 years. Car runs best with it and it also runs well with Chevron 93+. I choose the BP because I have their gas card

NOCturnalI30

iTrader: (1)

I wouldnt mind trying out Shell but i have hurd so many bad things that they mess up the injectors on the max anyone can veryify that they use it and have no problems???

BK1

iTrader: (2)

I just put in 14.5 gallons on Sunday. Drove 4 hrs in the city stop and go...and another 2 hours in Jersey highway. So far so good....knock on wood. I only put 93 in my car.
I guess it's pot luck, I've heard of some people getting bad loads, but I don't really remember where they bought their gas??

Wil's95SE

iTrader: (3)

Damn you guys are lucky. Being out here on the west coast all we have is Chevron, Shell, 76 as the major 3 guys here. Arco, Valero, and some other local gasoline shops supply the rest. Texaco was big here until Shell bought them out. All we get is 91 octane and I know I probably shouldn't do this but I do buy octane boosters to see if they will actually work. All I put in my car is 91 octane, after learning first hand what putting anything less in my car will do (blew EGR valve, $101 later). This is an interesting article cause now I will try using Shell for a few tanks and see how the car responds. I am having mileage issues right now but I suspect a clogged fuel filter and perhaps a bad KS, getting this fixed on Saturday. I will also run some Chevron Injector cleaner through as well. So I'll let you guys know how it goes after I get these things changed out and run on Shell 91.

SilverMax_04

I don't know about your Max, but the 04s recommend only 91 octane. I would stay away from the octane boosters. Elsewhere I have pointed out that if gasoline comes from most common carrier pipeline supply, it is very likely that all of the premium shipped in that line was "comingled" -- that means put together in one batch and moved to a single tank. All shippers (brands) then take gasoline out of that terminal tank, add their own additive package, and sell the gasoline. Thus, the only difference will be the additives. This is not true if the station is near a specific refinery. Then the gasoline will be trucked directly from that refinery.

Doing a clean-up of the injectors and spark plugs is a good idea. I've covered that in other posts and will not repeat.

76 no longer has any refineries and (at least here in Colorado) is either owned or controlled by Conoco-Phillips. When Chevron-Texaco merged, the government forced them to divest of some stations and refineries. The company chose Texaco facilities to sell. Shell picked up most of these, including stations here in Colorado and the refinery in Kansas that supplies them. Arco is now controlled by BP, but unlike Amoco stations the Arco stations have kept that name. Valero here in Colorado markets gasoline under the Diamond Shamrock brand. (Probably more than you wanted to know.)

hartley

I have decided to stick with chevron high grade for my maxima. I have used that and other gases in a 87 dodge truck (electronic carb.) occasionally. With chevron it had a more stable idle (slant-six engines were know for the shakes) and improved full throttle performance. Sometimes unocal76 did to but most others especially shell were really crappy for my truck.

4DRSpeed

iTrader: (22)

Larry Webster in his column of Car and Driver wrote about Top Tier. It's very interesting and I can finally prove to my dad that I was never telling a lie.

KCMaxima98

iTrader: (4)

I just saw a report on tv that talked about the "clear" premium from amoco. Apparently, some government agency sued amoco for what they called "misleading" advertising when they were trying to promote their "crystal clear" premium gas. Basically, they were told to prove that theirs was so much better than the competition and soon after you stopped hearing about "crystal clear" premium. Just because a gov. agency sued amoco, I don't necessarily believe that they were lying but I remembered this thread when watching this program and thought I would add this.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I wonder if this top tier gas thing has to do with the introduction of more direct injection engines that are coming on the market. I've read that this technology is slow to come to the USA as the gas wasn't good enough for the injectors required in these types of engines.