OnTheRoad

It looks like most full synthetic in the USA are mostly group III crack oils. Is there a non-Amsoil chart with the current oils on the market. I saw a Pennzoil full synthetic oil 10W-30 with flash point of 453F and a pore point -33C or -27F which looks like regular dino oil, such as Chevron Supreme 401F and -26F pour point. The flash point looks good but pour point lousy. Is it just well formulated group III stock? But what can I say with only $1 per Qt for full synthetic for Pennzoil after the rebate.

Mobil 1 seems to have changed 4 years ago. -49F pour point with a lower flash point now. Old value was -65F. The smell is different from the other oils. Exxon SuperFlo smell like Mobil 1.

The only indication that it's real synthetic oil is the A5/B5 rating. For high performance and extended oil change intervals. Possible the others premium oil just doesn't have the A/B ratings so the syntetics will sale for $3 more per Qt.
The
OnTheRoad

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

Almost all off-the-shelf synthetics, including most of the special Castrol and Shell formulations that BMW and Ferrari use, are Group III. Notable exceptions:

- Castrol RS 10w-60 (M3/M5/M6 oil -- Group IV)
- Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10w-60 (Enzo oil -- Group IV)
- German-made Castrol Syntec 0w-30 (Group IV)


Most Amsoil products are Group IV. The only Group III products are the XL-series oils.


All Redline products are Group V.


All Motul, Elf, Fuchs, and Lubro Moly oils with the "fully synthetic" label are Group IV and/or Group V.



Some important things to note, while we're on the topic:

- A lot of modern Group-III oils are pretty freakin' good. BMW High Performance Synthetic 5w-30 and most of the Shell Helix Ultra oils are Group III, and they are some of the best oils available off-the-shelf -- good enough for BMW, Mini, Ferrari, Maybach, Lamborghini, etc. They will stand up to just about anything on the road that sees remotely reasonable shear forces and oil temperatures.

- Virtually all "Group IV/V" oils have at least some Group III or lower basestock in them for additive solubility.

- Group III oils may tend to have worse cold flow, volatility, flash/fire properties, and viscosity retention than Group IV and Group V oils, but they stick to metal better than Group IV oils and often have better additive solubility than either Group IV or Group V oils.

talkinghorse

iTrader: (121)

Also, Group IV oils are PAO's and the Group V's are Esters, both true synthetics.

carsarecool

iTrader: (1)

Soooo....Pennzoil isn't true synthetic? Whats Group III/IV/V mean? How does Mobil 1 compare to Mobil 1 EP and to American Syntec?

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

Group III/IV/V refers to the oil's basestock -- the stuff that the oil is mainly composed of.


Group III means it's made from crude oil or slack wax that's been extensively processed. Since the products are usually almost the same as some synthetic stuff, Castrol earned the right to call it synthetic, at least in the USA. Other companies (Shell, Pennzoil, Mobil, etc.) followed suit. It's worth noting that they don't call it synthetic in Europe, though. Whether you want to call it "true synthetic" is really up to you.

Group IV and V are always considered "true synthetic" because they are made up of molecules have to be constructed piece by piece ("synthesized"). They don't break down or burn off as easily, they flow better when cold, and they don't thin out as much when hot. The flip side is that they are MUCH more expensive to make, so the major manufacturers have moved away from them for most mainstream stuff.

Group IV means it's polyalphaolefin (PAO) or something similar. Water and other contaminants don't affect it too much, and it won't produce harmful by-products if it breaks down.

Group V is some kind of synthetic ester; the most popular type is polyol ester (POE), which Red Line uses. The best thing about it is that it tends to stick to metal and form incredibly strong films, so it's great at taking high amounts stress. Because it never fully drips off, it never lets your engine "dry out" after it's been sitting all night. It also helps clean gunk and crap out of your engine in the long run.

There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the jist of it.


Mobil 1 EP just has a slightly different additive package from regular Mobil 1. As far as I know, the consensus is it's not really worth much. American-made Syntec is about on par with Mobil 1.

talkinghorse

iTrader: (121)

I have a spreadsheet which compares eight different base stocks. While Group IV PAOs and Group V POE's (esters) are both excellent base stocks, each have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages. As doodfood states, Esters tend to outperform PAO's in the most extreme high-stress conditions... and that's why they tend to be better suited to racing applications. I believe synthetic aviation oils are also ester based.

For passenger/street car use Group IV PAO's show better compatibility with petroleum-based oils; significantly better hydrolytic stability (resistant to the effects of water/condensation); better ability to inhibit rust; and they are generally more friendly to seals.

carsarecool

iTrader: (1)

So for a higher mileage maxima with only bolt-ons and driven moderately, a syntec or mobil 1 oil is fine. What about that new quaker state synthetic, Q Torque power? ANything close to living up to its advertising hype?

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

In short, yes.

Those Quaker State oils are almost the same as the Shell Helix Ultra line, which is serious business. I can't remember specifics, but one of them is the same as the Shell Helix Ultra that Ferrari uses in most of their cars from the factory.

carsarecool

iTrader: (1)

Interesting, i'm probly gonna use one of them next oil change, actually when I worked at autozone I had heard regular dino quaker state was the same as pennzoil and they were both prone to sludge problems, at least more than castrol or mobil.