kristen91gxe

Which works better in the snow, a FWD car, or a RWD car with limited slip differential?

NYCe MaXiMa

iTrader: (9)

For snow:

AWD

then

FWD

then

RWD

kristen91gxe

FWD with NO LSD or RWD WITH LSD

jacob

Because you are talking about RWD w/ LSD versus FWD with NO LSD. If you know how to drive at all, rear wheel drive gives you way more control and with LSD it's easily as good as any FWD system, better than most.

Sure, there may be one or two times FWD would have better traction due to the weight being over the front wheels, but RWD can get you out of situations that would just be "game over" with FWD.

I have driven in snow, ice, slush and lots of other nasty areas with both FWD and RWD and this just comes from my experience.



-Jacob

jwtarbaj

I would definitely have to disagree with you. Unless it is Traction Control you will see only mild improvement over standard RWD. FWD is superior in foul weather to any rear drive setup. Take it from a Michigan driver. AWD is the best of course. To be honest though Car and Driver did an extensive test and it ranked AWD, TC FWD, FWD, TC RWD and RWD in this order. The biggest factor they found in improving a vehicles control in snow was fitting a set of snow tires. I'm pretty sure they were Blizzaks. This test was done several years ago. Hope this helps.

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

depends on your ability to handle the car and the technology in that car, and the power of the cars..

like say.. with average drivers.. its easier to control a Lexus GS in snow than a moddified maxima in snow.. because the lexus has traction control and snow mode..

some times LSD hurts more than helps.. especially in slippery conditions if you are not use to it or know how to control it..

with Horspower being equal, drivers being equal.. FWD w/o LSD, RWD w/ LSD.. i would take the FWD.. but thats because i can control it and i am use to it.. where another driver who has been driving RWD for years will take RWD..

Anuj

Look on the bright side *****...you still got a +1 with your post count.

So did I.

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

i found it

MaxSpeedSE

iTrader: (3)

FWD, be carful ... winter time sucks

SuDZ

If your used to straight out RWD then it will seem that is better to you. Like my first car was a RWD car, and in the snow I could handle it like it was on rails, granted this meant that sometimesif the car felt like it might spin out I just knew how to regain control or if neccesary spin the rear out going around corners and stay in control. It is a matter of skill at it I guess.

Then my next car was FWD and I was going like 20 on a snowy day and lost control tried to regain it the way I would in RWD adn took a nose dive into a tree. This road I would have been going about 40 in in my RWD car without a problem.

The reason for the crash was that I was trying to drive the two the same and when the car started spiining out I did not react right due to my previous experiences. If your looking to switch from one to the other for snow make sure you understand how the two handle differently and in bad situations how you should be reacting to keep yourself safe. I learned the hard way but hopefully you wont have to.

Frank Fontaine

Um.....no.

RWD with 4 snows, not the types that claim the compound overcomes good ol' fashioned eco friendly studs, is superior to FWD as far as handling goes. The myth that FWD is better is something invented back in the 70's. Ok, some of us were only gleams in our poppy's eyes back then but the fwd transaxle which lacks a driveshaft/rear axle is far cheaper to manufacture than a RWD setup. Not just mechanically but in man-hours UAW style. Don't believe it? Maxima goes as far as the beam axle to save $$$ in production. That's over an independent rear. We're not even talking rear differential.

Wonder how MI drivers fare in VT where it not only snows but the terrain is mountainous?

kristen91gxe

Oh well... I'm selling my Maxima ASAP and Friday I'm picking up a 1996 240sx SE Guess I'll have to learn quickly since I'm in Michigan and the snow is coming soon...

kristen91gxe

When in the hell do I stop being a "newbie" anyway?

Anuj

with more posts like these, you'll be there in no time.

Seriously, when you hit 50 posts, you are no longer a newbie by "status" Click on your profile to see how many you have.

kristen91gxe

Heh, that's the idea Thanks

jacob

THANK YOU. FWD was a move simply to save money and make production faster and easier. Being able to convince the public that it was "better" through really amazing marketing was just a by-product and mostly because people are stupid. I can't believe how many people to this day still believe FWD is better. Now THAT is marketing genius!

Think about how much cheaper it is to not have to produce driveshafts, rear axles, hefty differentials - shoot they even save money by being able to make really wimpy rear suspensions... Also, on the assebly line, the engine/trans/axles everything gets plugged in one time instead of having to install an entire driveline the length of the car.

Anyway, a lot of this is based on personal preference but there is no question that RWD gives you much more control VS FWD. The only question is whether or not you can use that control. FWD is only better for people who do not understand some of the most basic principles of driving and traction. You just point and shoot rather than having to actually think about what you are doing. But I have seen my father get the most rediculous of cars through the same stuff that humbled cars that should have made it through no probs - it all comes down to the driver. We even had little contests to see "which is better" for some friends who believed FWD was so much superior. RWD w/ LSD prevailed every time - even in a '72 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight (if you know that car, you know it has no place in snow and mud).

If FWD were so much more superior, we would see ONLY AWD and FWD rally cars rather than the tons of simply RWD cars (Supras, 510s, etc etc). We would also see FWD in racing.

Make your choice and go with what you like. Learn to drive, and enjoy the ride!!

Congrats Kristen - those 240's are awesome cars and it should last a very very long time.

-Jacob

soopermax02

For the typical driver in a slick situation FWD is superior.

Why? Understeer.

Understeer is when you point your car in the direction you want it to travel, but it doens't seem to go that way.

Lets take a few scenarios:
You are in a RWD car and you are taking a corner, just a little (ever so slightly) fast in the snow. You turn your wheel but not much happens, the car is not going in the direction you intend.

What do you do? Most people turn the wheel slightly sharper and slow down. This is a BIG mistake. When you slow down, the front wheels will begin catch and the car will begin to turn; however now the wheel is too far turned in the direction you want to go and you will shoot off your path. So you may turn the wheel back, and then you will more than likely begin to fishtail. When I briefly worked as a call firefighter it was the number one thing people told me they did when they went of the road in a RWD car.

Same scenario, but a FWD car. Those front wheels that are slipping and not allowing your turn, are also the driving wheels. Hence you are in essence losing lateral forward drive as well as turning ability. You will still experience understeer, however when you slow down and turn the wheel slightly more you will be in much greater control; you are directing the driving force in the direction you intend to travel.

I would estimate that probably about 1/3 of the cars on the road are RWD, but at least half of the winter crashes I've responded to have involved RWD cars.

Don't let this sway your mind too much. The 240sx is a remarkable car, and by no means is it (or any RWD car) not capable in the snow. As was mentioned before, a huge part of it is experience and human nature.

Good luck.

jacob

Seems like what you are saying is sorta what I was saying - for anyone that has no skill, FWD would be the choice. That wasn't the question tho...

Myself, I would rather see people learn to drive than continue to make cars more and more idiot-resistant because people don't want to or just don't know how to drive. Designed-in understeer is a classic example - purposely make sporting cars handle bad to protect people from themselves.

So yeah, if you have no clue about driving dynamics, don't understand when you should brake and when you should NOT brake, then FWD is the choice. But then - you shouldn't be driving in snow (let alone at all) in this case IMHO.

Pretty sad to choose a device based on one's in-ability to use it.

-Jacob

soopermax02

FWD is better in slippery environments. It's been tested over and over again. It comes down to simple physics really: With front wheel drive you have the ability to point the driving force in the intended direction of travel. A huge advantage in slippery conditions.

So why even have RWD?
The weight of the vehicle is more evenly distributed, allowing the rear tires and suspension to work more efficiently, creating better cornering and stopping power and a smoother ride.

It not a whole lot cheaper than you think. For one FWD requires CV joints, which are tremendously more expensive than RWD universal joints. FWD also offers more cabin room, and better fuel efficiency (much less weight).

Much more control on standard surfaces, no question. Time and time again proven less than optimal in slick situations. The problem is even thinking may not save you. When you have only a fraction of a second to decide, there's no time to think. You will not have the chance to ponder.

I don't see many of those cars WINNING the rally races. The last one I watched was dominated by WRXs and even a Tiburon that beat the supras. We don't see FWD in racing because of the terrible weight transfer. In racing the conditions are controlled. In racing huge slicks are used, and the track is always dry and prepped. Haven't seen many NASCAR or F1 races in the rain or snow have you?

Hey I agree with that 100%. The 240sx is a blast to drive. Just be careful out there, and prepare yourself for the winter by hitting the streets and getting to know the car.

jacob

Tested... by doing abrupt maneuvers and foolish things an in-experienced or un-skilled driver might do, but in a controlled environment. FWD is better in bad driving environments in "most cases" simply because it is not as responsive as RWD and will not get an in-experienced driver in trouble - it is human nature to YANK the steering wheel and STOMP on the brakes in a bad situation - for people that do this, FWD is great. Again, FWD is better if you don't know what you're doing. There's nothing wrong with that as not everyone takes an interest in driving! Some people don't care and just wanna get from point A to point B.

Why have RWD? Because it's better. I am not talking about NASCAR. Sheesh! I attend NASA HPDE events and drive on race tracks when I get a chance. Maybe 10% of the cars there are FWD (if that) and then only Civics/Integras because they are cheap, light and easy to make fast. If FWD were superior, you would see more FWD cars out there. Most of the people out there also have a FWD car, but they are left for daily driving and grocery-getting where they belong. If FWD were better, there would also maybe be ONE expensive super-car type car that uses FWD. There isn't. Not ONE (that I know of).

You simply cannot attain the level of control that RWD provides with a FWD car PERIOD. That's not opinion, that's fact. When you ask the front wheels to steer, stop AND propel the car, you are asking too much of them! Don't ask me, as a professional driving instructor or anyone that is in any high performance driving realm.

Yes, it is. Cheaper to build (less parts and they can be built to lower tolerances), easier/faster to manufacture, MUCH cheaper/faster to assemble. Also - compare prices some time. I can get front axles for my Maxima for $80 each (and I have been told that is high). This includes both CV joints (on each axle) the boots and the axle themselves. Try replacing the components of my 300ZX's driveline for that (Z31) - this includes the u-joints, half shafts, etc. VERY expensive to have done. Just the bearings for my Supra rear end in my Celica cost more than the pair of axles for the Maxima.

FWD does definitely offer more room, better fuel economy (lower weight) and a few other benefits that are GREAT for econo cars.

Time and time again... I will have to look around on that because I simply do not believe it. Either way you are still banking on in-experience.

No, the track is NOT always dry and prepped. Last few times I have been out there was gravel and dirt from a few cars that went off the track. The first time I saw track time (thunderhill raceway) the track was wet because it had been raining and it was February. The only cars that had any problems were the Civics and one Prelude that spun out and hit the tire-wall... Last time, the only car that spun out and wrecked was a Civic - this time it was out of a full paddock - hundreds of cars. I saw a guy in a Corvette go off the track into the dirt - he brought it back on NO problem. Another S2000 went through the gravel and debris created by the Civic wrecking, he got a little squirrly but had no porblems. These are not professional drivers, these are average Joe's who like to drive on race tracks.

The NASCAR/F1 comment was pretty silly.

The point is, once you get to the point where you are gonna lose it - with RWD you CAN correct it. With FWD, you are screwed - no way to correct serious oversteer with FWD (induced by speed, snow, or anything else).

I have to admit I haven't followed rally for some time. It would be strange to think that these people driving 510's, 240's, rx-7's, old Celica, Supras, Starions, etc etc etc keep running and NEVER win. Why would Toyota even bother to drive the Supra when they had the All-Trac? But they did for years...

We don't see FWD in racing because RWD and AWD is better! Seriously - think about it. FWD belongs on econo-boxes. Go to a SCCA Solo 1 or NASA HPDE event some time and talk to the drivers. Count the FWD cars. There are a lot of very nice FWD cars out there that will never get anywhere because they are FWD. If the Acura 3.2CL Type-S was RWD, it would be a world-beater. If my Maxima were RWD, it would see track time and would not be for sale.

Most of this again is simply opinion, but some of the things you are saying are just plain wrong from what I have seen and learned over the years. Very common mis-conceptions about the FWD info though. And you are right - for an in-experienced driver or someone who is not paying attention, FWD would be far superior simply for it's lack of control. I would NEVER want to choose a vehicle based on my lack of skill or atention-span though!!

Definitely very good advice. Playing around in a wet parking lot would be another good idea just to learn the dynamics of the vehicle and prepare yourself for those feelings that can only be felt "at the limit" of adhesion. My dad taught me skid-control in my 510 before he would even let me drive by myself. Good info to learn cuz you never know what you are gonna see out there on the roads, and it has saved me quite a few times.

Anyway, got work to do. Can't play on here anymore

-Jacob

jwtarbaj

Yes SooperMax02 is much more in tune with my thinking. You are comparing apples to oranges road cars vs. race cars. The original question was very simple "Which is better in the snow?". Now that I know it is a 240SX I am even more sure of it. FWD is better in the snow than a 240SX with Viscous LSD. I had a '93 Sentra SE-R with viscous LSD. It doesn't really do a whole lot for traction. It mostly just jerks the power around from the left tire to the right (I can't imagine how bad the torque steer would have been without it!) I have had many cars in the past. I will tell you my '85 Toyota Tercel could go anywhere in the snow and muck! It was unstoppable. It was a simple FWD with a 3 speed auto. Next I had a '79 Celica. It was not very good in snow. Now saying you could steer with the throttle around corners with RWD is fine and dandy. However it is very UNSAFE and will surely just lead to trouble.

"Um.....no.

RWD with 4 snows, not the types that claim the compound overcomes good ol' fashioned eco friendly studs, is superior to FWD as far as handling goes."

This doesn't seem to be very fair. Give the RWD car snow tires and leave the FWD car with regular tires? Of course I'd choose the one with snow tires.

jwtarbaj

"If FWD were better, there would also maybe be ONE expensive super-car type car that uses FWD."

You are misunderstanding the point. The Q was which is better in snow. I challenge you to a race in 6 inches of snow. You can have a Ferrari with RWD and I will drive something with front wheel drive. Who will come out on top? The Ferrari would never even leave the garage. Let's be realistic here. Exotic cars are not driven in the foul weather. A Ferrari owner would never even consider driving it if there were rain on the road let alone snow! No one has said FWD is better than RWD at everything hands down no questions asked. What we are saying is it IS better for foul weather conditions. I could definitely say my Celica was much more "fun" to drive than the Tercel but I'd choose the Tercel for the snow anyday over the Celica!

jacob

I only brought that up because of the people that said "FWD is just better for traction." Just wanted to point out that an easy way to see what's better is to look at people that actually use their cars, such as amatuer racers. NOT NASCAR and F1... Duh. The race-car thing was blown way out of proportion. Of course a Ferrari with it's ultra-wide Z rated tires would go nowhere in snow. Give me a 240SX with LSD and Blizzaks, and we will have a snow-race.

Uhh... Heh...


Uhhh... What?!?!? Heh. "Doesn't really do a lot for traction..." That is straight up hilarious! The whole point of a Limited Slip Differential is TRACTION. It is putting power to the wheel with the most traction (it figures this out by NOT sending power to wheel that is spinning). "It mostly jerks the power around from the left tire to the right..." Uhh... NO.

The above makes me feel a whole lot better about this whole discussion. I was beginning to think you were serious.

Your '85 Tercel did so well because it was light. Try the same with a heavy FWD car with an open diff. You won't be able to everywhere the Tercel could. OF COURSE the '79 Celica wasn't good in the snow - it was heavier and had RWD with an open diff. FWD w/out LSD in a similar weight car will be better than RWD w/out LSD in bad traction situations simply because the weight is over the driving wheels, not because of which wheels are driving!

Now YOU are comparing apples and oranges!!

Don't think anyone said the FWD couldn't use snow tires!!! I would think snow tires (and I would hope) would be obvious.

Basically all I sought out to say is this: If you know how to drive and understand some pretty basic things about vehicle dynamics and what happens in sticky situations, a RWD car w/ a LSD (IE 240SX SE) will be just as capable in the snow as a FWD car w/o LSD (IE '91 Maxima GXE). In my opinion, because I love driving and am very experienced with RWD, I would choose the 240SX because it would be WAAAY more fun in the summer and just as competent as the Maxima (if not better in other situations simply because of the LSD) in snow and bad traction situations.

I still believe the above to be true, and I think most of what you two are saying is based on your opinions rather than what is actually true. That's cool - that's a big part of what all this is about. You say Potato, I say Spud, ya know?

Enjoy the ride - hopefully I can get work done now...

-Jacob

soopermax02

In slippery situations RWD is less responsive. You will experience a lot more understeer in a RWD car than a FWD when slipping.

For racing, there was no question RWD is superior. Weight transfer is the biggest advantage. And the best super-cars are AWD. I hate NASCAR with a passion. It's nothing but left turns, but the point is NASCAR never races in the rain or snow.

Ask those same people what they drive when it snows out, off the track.

In 1996 Nissan made over 100,000 Maximas. That same year they made just over 600 Zs for the states. Now even if Nissan did make 100,000 Zs I agree it would still be more costly; but not nearly as much as it cost now. If my white '94 ZXTT didn't have blown turbos and leaky exhaust I would be driving it every day. It is a lot more fun then my 2k2 Maxima. But in the winter time I don't touch it. Way too many close calls, and I assure you I am an experienced with that car (61k miles on it, that should be enough experience). Everything on that car is outrageously priced.

I urge you to look around online. You'll be surprised how many enthusiast magazines (like was mentioned C&D) talk about snow driving.

I HATE NASCAR. The point was, these are controlled races. There isn't any rain or snow to contend with.

The way to correct serious oversteer is to turn the wheel in the opposite direction. Most people will do this, and if the wheels grip you will be pulled out. In RWD when you need to correct serious oversteer you can't; the inherent understeer is limiting you. And to top it off if power isn't limited one will begin to fishtail. FWD will not fishtail in this situation.

Rally has been dominated by the WRX. Honestly I miss the old rallies. All of the drifting and such, it was much wilder.

I agree, for racing and general purpose enthusiast driving RWD takes the cake every time. But right now my Maxima is probably worth 4 times my Z; but I will always take the Max out in the snow over the Z anyday.

The fact is in slippery situations, it the RWD car that has much less control. In normal driving and racing RWD has the weight distrubution and weight shift advantage. Sports cars like the Z were not made for slippery terrain. They weren't made to rally. They were made for corners and straights on dry sticky roads. Every day FWD cars were made for a little of everything.

The most fun I have ever had in a car was abusing my Z in wet parking lots. It was more fun than driving fast on narrow mountain passes. One can make a RWD do some crazy things in a wet parking lot that FWD just can't do. Part of that is because the Z just fishtails everywhere... Even now with blown turbos.

Take care, and be safe out there. To each his own. One day when my Z gets out of my parents old garage and gets its much deserved new turbos we'll race sometime.

jacob

Wrong. One of FWD's worst traits is massive understeer. With RWD, you control exactly how much under or oversteer you have, especially in slippery situations!



Wrong. It is mostly because of the control factor - don't ask me, ask people who race. You were the only one who mentioned NASCAR - it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion and I agree that it sucks



I will actually. Most of these people that I know also have 4WD SUVs so that point would be moot. Me? Last time I drove through snow, ice and slush I did it in my '85 300ZX Turbo. I got some weird looks but I made it from San Francisco to Portland and back, and San Francisco to Reno and back (through snow/chains/4wd only areas with no chains) in DECEMBER. No problems whatsoever except all the morons that yelled at me for not taking a 4WD. It was my only car!



This is completely invalid! I said Z31! Of course Z32 parts are expensive, they are more than many other cars. My Z31 is a valid comparison because there were TONS of them made, and they are no more expensive to repair or work on than any other mainstream car. My cars are a '93 Maxima, '84 300ZX Turbo and '80 Celica ST Coupe - very common, mainstream cars. Your Z is more of an exotic, and I prolly wouldn't even start it up in the winter (though except for ground clearance, it should do just fine and better than my Z because of the rear suspension and additional weight).



I will look around soon as I have time. I would love to be surprised, wrong, or both. Learning is fun!



What does this have to do with anything at all??



Close... But wrong. Don't have the time or the patience to explain. You are right about FWD not fishtailing though and that is one reason FWD is better for an in-experienced driver in bad traction situations - when the STOMP on the gas, the car will not lose control - it will just go in the direction they point it. IMHO, these people should attend a driver training course.



We are not talking about AWD!!! Rally is my favourite thing in the world - I was in the UK in '99 during the WRC and saw some of it in person. Wow... And I love WRX's...



I would too! But I would drive my Z31 in the snow or off road before I would drive my Maxima or yours for that matter. I wouldn't take a Z32 off road in the same way I wouldn't take a Corvette off road or in snow. A 240SX though, would be fine. I would take a 240SX w/LSD out in the snow before my Maxima w/LSD. Personal preference, and I would feel safer with the better control RWD offers in sticky situations.



Wrong. It's all about the driver, all other things being equal.



Hahaha! Sounds fun. I do the same in my '80 Celica - it's a blast. Donuts and powerslides for days... Sounds like your Z needs some better tires!

Totally completely correct - to each his own. Like I said, I was just saying that the 240SX w/ LSD can be a perfectly suitable winter car with the right driver. And about the race... Sounds fun but you'd kill me even with blown turbos I'm sure! I just got this latest '84 Turbo, and it's bone stock with bad struts and nasty tires! Some day, it will be great though I hope!

Have fun, and please forgive me if I seem curt - I do not mean it that way. Just tired of arguing and I really need to get going. Leaving for three weeks tomorrow...

-Jacob

spiff56747

iTrader: (-1)

Jacob, I think the point is, if you give half the population RWD cars for the winter, and the other half FWD cars, guess which half would have more accidents ( a lot more)?

Not everybody is an experienced driver like you, in fact, most people aren't, so while RWD may really be better for you in the snow, the fact is, for most people its just not and will cause more accidents.

My friend and I spun out and hit a fence in his old 91 Mazda MPV van, cuz that thing was so heavy and had RWD and he never really drove it in the snow. And my friend is not really a bad driver compared to some other people I've seen.

And if you're gonna say that people should learn to drive RWD cars in the snow, because they'll end up having more control, people won't do that because most of them simply don't care about driving in the snow that much, they just wanna get home as soon as possible, safely.

jwtarbaj

Then why mention the "Super" cars in the first place?

I am perfectly serious. The SE-R with Viscous LSD was not a great snow car. No better than my Max which has tons more torque and an open diff. The Viscous LSD in the SE-R was put in to quell torque steer. It does not work effectively as a traction control system. Remember Viscous LSD (VLSD) simply has a fluid in the diff that when heated causes the other side to spin. As one side heats more than the other it heats more transfering more to the opposite side. This is a totally mechanical function and really doesn't improve traction in a snow/ice situation. Basically you will just have both wheels spinning instead of just 1. A traction control system that uses a computer would be far more effective but, it wouldn't calm the massive torque steer in that little snorting car. VLSD is put on to eliminate torque steer. I found all it did was make the engine tug the steering wheel from left to right when the road was slick! Believe me I'm not ******* VLSD it serves a purpose but you have to understand how it works. I loved my SE-R and would still have it if it hadn't been stolen.

jacob

No clue - I believe you were the one who brought up the Ferrari.

Yes, understanding how it works is pretty important when discussing it's purpose. The fluid does not differentiate between the axles individually - it differentiates between the spider gears internally to the differential. Basically, all the fluid is doing is controlling the difference in speed between the wheels, based on inertia of the faster wheel - it has NO affect until a wheel starts slipping, thus... It is undoubtedly and very definitely there as a traction device. What you are describing is torque steer, very common to FWD cars. My Maxima ('93 SE) has never shown me torque steer so with it's greater power and torque over the SE-R, it makes me think there was something wrong with your VLSD. My '89 Prelude showed me what torque-steer was... Yikes!

Check out some cool info on how diffs work, and VLSDs as well.

HowStuffWorks.com's Differential Page

Most electronic traction control systems like you mention simply use the brakes individually to combat wheel spin, this way the power is still being delivered, but the spin is being kept in check by the brakes. If a wheel starts spinning, it uses the brake on that wheel to slow it down. Basically a neat device to protect an unskilled driver from themself. Seems like it would make driving in snow just about fool-proof and safe for anyone.

Bummer your SE-R got stolen, those are nice cars. That was my first car and it was great. Sold it to a friend and he totalled it within a week...

-Jacob

Slowpoke

I know this doesn't anwer the original question, but it's interesting nonetheless. Car & Driver did a test a while back where they tested AWD vs. 2WD (one fwd, one rwd) using snow and all-season tires

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caran...tp.xml?&page=1

jacob

I gather from that you should get some snow tires and drive what ya like.

Maybe just get a WRX and call it a day...

-Jacob