Build an all motor beast or turbocharge... opinions
12-15-2002, 06:42 PM
#1
Build an all motor beast or turbocharge... opinions
So, I've been doing some thinking lately about what to do with my car. I'd almost convinced myself to stay all motor and build an all motor beast. Then there are all these sick turbo kits coming out for the max, and putting down retarded amounts of power for like $4000, out the door.
Currently I'm putting 180ish to the ground, on a 140K mile motor. Never tested compression or leakdown, but I assume for now that they're ok, as I'm turning good times and putting down good power.
So, the options are:
1) Budget all motor: get ECU, Cams, valvesprings and the rest of the bolt-ons. Looking at about $2500 in mods plus $250 for clutch, probably see 220 to the ground.
2) All-out all motor: everything listed above + 3.5L shortblock from a 2002+ Max, Alt, G35, 350Z. With my heads the resulting compression would be 11.6:1. Probabaly looking at 280-300 to the ground. Cost would probably be in the $4500 range all told. Also, the 3.5L block swap hasn't been done so there might (and probably would be) unforseen expenses and downtime. Clutch also needed ($250), and tranny bellhousing mating is unknown at this point (not sure if my trans will bolt up.)
3) Turbo kit: t3/t04e or t04e kit, nice FMIC, all hardware, guages, FULL 3" mandrel bent exhaust from turbo back included, tial wastegate, MBC, timer, FPR, fuel pump, etc. $3999 out the door, INSTALLATION INCLUDED IN THE PRICE if I make the 5-6 hour drive to Kentucky. On 4.5psi the kit puts down 280ish, 11psi 370ish, 14psi 430ish, the block is good to 18psi I'm told before internals go kaboom. Reliability is up in the air, the kits are too new for anyone to know how they will hold up. I'd also need a clutch, another $250.
So, opinions?
Currently I'm putting 180ish to the ground, on a 140K mile motor. Never tested compression or leakdown, but I assume for now that they're ok, as I'm turning good times and putting down good power.
So, the options are:
1) Budget all motor: get ECU, Cams, valvesprings and the rest of the bolt-ons. Looking at about $2500 in mods plus $250 for clutch, probably see 220 to the ground.
2) All-out all motor: everything listed above + 3.5L shortblock from a 2002+ Max, Alt, G35, 350Z. With my heads the resulting compression would be 11.6:1. Probabaly looking at 280-300 to the ground. Cost would probably be in the $4500 range all told. Also, the 3.5L block swap hasn't been done so there might (and probably would be) unforseen expenses and downtime. Clutch also needed ($250), and tranny bellhousing mating is unknown at this point (not sure if my trans will bolt up.)
3) Turbo kit: t3/t04e or t04e kit, nice FMIC, all hardware, guages, FULL 3" mandrel bent exhaust from turbo back included, tial wastegate, MBC, timer, FPR, fuel pump, etc. $3999 out the door, INSTALLATION INCLUDED IN THE PRICE if I make the 5-6 hour drive to Kentucky. On 4.5psi the kit puts down 280ish, 11psi 370ish, 14psi 430ish, the block is good to 18psi I'm told before internals go kaboom. Reliability is up in the air, the kits are too new for anyone to know how they will hold up. I'd also need a clutch, another $250.
So, opinions?
Boost that bish! You'll have more power than you know what to do with.
12-15-2002, 07:38 PM
#4
I would go with the turbo setup. It'll be more flexible, plus you can get a turbo where it'll spool later so you wont have to worry about gaining traction as much compared to now if that makes any sense.
12-15-2002, 07:55 PM
#5
I highly recommend the turbo set up. A all motor set up is nice, but you dont have the options like you do with boost. You can set up your car to run on low boost for daily driving and then pump it up for the track or the weekends. I personally think once you go boost, the increases in HP are unlimited, that is when the stuff like exhaust and intake really count. Go boost, you cant beat it and especially the sound.
12-15-2002, 09:12 PM
#9
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 621
I'd say to go w/the budget all motor setup. With 140k miles, I would be very concerned about doing something thats going to put a lot of extra stess on your engine like the turbo kit. On the other hand if you just have money burning a hole in your pocket, go for the more expensive all motor setup, not only would you see some nice gains in performance, but it would show the rest of us what we could all possibly get out of these new upgrades, either way good luck!
12-15-2002, 11:00 PM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,807
I say go with a VQ35DE. While the motor is out you can hardcore on pistons, cams and whatever. The boost route that is scary. I wouldn't buy a turbo that would put out more power than my fuel injectors could handle IMHO. You should run 370cc injectors as a bare minimum and then you still can't adjust the ignition timing. But I'm sure a greddy Emanage would help solve those issues. But ideally your looking at $1000 after the install of the kit to get it running properly.
AT www.car-part.com you can get a VQ35DE for $1000-2500, figure $300-2000 depending on the motor work you get done. AFter your finished you could part out or sell your old motor and recoup some of the difference. Besides an All motor VQ35DE would own, especially if its tuned
.
AT www.car-part.com you can get a VQ35DE for $1000-2500, figure $300-2000 depending on the motor work you get done. AFter your finished you could part out or sell your old motor and recoup some of the difference. Besides an All motor VQ35DE would own, especially if its tuned
.
12-15-2002, 11:33 PM
#15
Originally posted by Nismo87SE
I say go with a VQ35DE. While the motor is out you can hardcore on pistons, cams and whatever. The boost route that is scary. I wouldn't buy a turbo that would put out more power than my fuel injectors could handle IMHO. You should run 370cc injectors as a bare minimum and then you still can't adjust the ignition timing. But I'm sure a greddy Emanage would help solve those issues. But ideally your looking at $1000 after the install of the kit to get it running properly.
AT www.car-part.com you can get a VQ35DE for $1000-2500, figure $300-2000 depending on the motor work you get done. AFter your finished you could part out or sell your old motor and recoup some of the difference. Besides an All motor VQ35DE would own, especially if its tuned.
I say go with a VQ35DE. While the motor is out you can hardcore on pistons, cams and whatever. The boost route that is scary. I wouldn't buy a turbo that would put out more power than my fuel injectors could handle IMHO. You should run 370cc injectors as a bare minimum and then you still can't adjust the ignition timing. But I'm sure a greddy Emanage would help solve those issues. But ideally your looking at $1000 after the install of the kit to get it running properly.
AT www.car-part.com you can get a VQ35DE for $1000-2500, figure $300-2000 depending on the motor work you get done. AFter your finished you could part out or sell your old motor and recoup some of the difference. Besides an All motor VQ35DE would own, especially if its tuned
.
12-16-2002, 06:37 AM
#17
I would consider all motor- win some money too
I duno, seriously I think an all motor car is better at more track events than a boosted car, and its a different route- I would encourage you to keep on the same track and do something different!!
I duno, seriously I think an all motor car is better at more track events than a boosted car, and its a different route- I would encourage you to keep on the same track and do something different!!
12-16-2002, 06:58 AM
#18
you know what gets my vote... 
just a little correction... as far as stock internals holding 18psi? for how long are you wanting this engine to last, a couple minutes - months? you need to be extremely careful when boosting 10+, and above 12 you had better be willing/ready to get a new motor unless you have built internals
to make the decision easier, I would say ride in a turbo'd maxima haha, it is a lot different then just the videos I can post up, to actually feel the push back in your seat
just a little correction... as far as stock internals holding 18psi? for how long are you wanting this engine to last, a couple minutes - months? you need to be extremely careful when boosting 10+, and above 12 you had better be willing/ready to get a new motor unless you have built internals
to make the decision easier, I would say ride in a turbo'd maxima haha, it is a lot different then just the videos I can post up, to actually feel the push back in your seat
12-16-2002, 11:00 AM
#19
Originally posted by hlh0501
you know what gets my vote...
just a little correction... as far as stock internals holding 18psi? for how long are you wanting this engine to last, a couple minutes - months? you need to be extremely careful when boosting 10+, and above 12 you had better be willing/ready to get a new motor unless you have built internals
to make the decision easier, I would say ride in a turbo'd maxima haha, it is a lot different then just the videos I can post up, to actually feel the push back in your seat
you know what gets my vote...
just a little correction... as far as stock internals holding 18psi? for how long are you wanting this engine to last, a couple minutes - months? you need to be extremely careful when boosting 10+, and above 12 you had better be willing/ready to get a new motor unless you have built internals
to make the decision easier, I would say ride in a turbo'd maxima haha, it is a lot different then just the videos I can post up, to actually feel the push back in your seat
12-16-2002, 11:27 AM
#21
You are forgetting one important element. All motor build ups are fine IF you have the correct ecu program to go with it. Since no one really makes an ecu programs for 4-gens or for your application, you will have to go stand-alone. That will kick your budget up another $1,500 for purchase + another $xxx for dyno time tuning.
12-16-2002, 12:29 PM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,018
I love speculative threads like this.hehe It would be really cool if you stayed NA. I can understand you wanting to go turbo though.
If you can pick up a 3.5L block for cheap, I'd say to turbo that. There's the fitment issues to worry about, but hopefully it won't be as a big a deal as getting stand-alone engine management.
[stupid idea]
I dunno if it would work, but maybe you could get the 3.5L block, swap out the crank from the 3L, and bring the displacement down to around 3.2L(?).
You could possibly use the 3L heads, too. I have a feeling that the CVTC isn't helping peak torque figures. A 3.5L 5th gen should be making much more than only 246lb-ft.
If this all works, you could keep the bigger bore of the 3.5L block and still rev like the VQ30DEs were meant to. It'd be a really nice NA motor. It could be a good turbo motor too, if you lowered the compression.[/stupid idea]
Lastly, you could just turbo your VQ, but get everything checked out first to make sure it's in good condition. You could use either the VQ30DET's 9:1 pistons or get a set of custom pistons in the compression you want.
Whatever you do, I'm sure the "Darth Vader Max" will go like stink when you're finished!
If you can pick up a 3.5L block for cheap, I'd say to turbo that. There's the fitment issues to worry about, but hopefully it won't be as a big a deal as getting stand-alone engine management.
[stupid idea]
I dunno if it would work, but maybe you could get the 3.5L block, swap out the crank from the 3L, and bring the displacement down to around 3.2L(?).
You could possibly use the 3L heads, too. I have a feeling that the CVTC isn't helping peak torque figures. A 3.5L 5th gen should be making much more than only 246lb-ft.
If this all works, you could keep the bigger bore of the 3.5L block and still rev like the VQ30DEs were meant to. It'd be a really nice NA motor. It could be a good turbo motor too, if you lowered the compression.[/stupid idea]
Lastly, you could just turbo your VQ, but get everything checked out first to make sure it's in good condition. You could use either the VQ30DET's 9:1 pistons or get a set of custom pistons in the compression you want.
Whatever you do, I'm sure the "Darth Vader Max" will go like stink when you're finished!
12-16-2002, 12:30 PM
#25
12-16-2002, 12:48 PM
#26
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 500
Re: Build an all motor beast or turbocharge... opinions
I've been debating over a 3.5L all motor vs turbocharger myself. My maxima has 111,000 miles on it and is my only source of transportation. OK I have a motorcycle but I'll be d!mned if I'm going to ride it in 30 degree weather. I'm leaning more towards a turbo at this point.
IMO cams and ecu are not worth the cost and the amount of work that is necessary. A built 3.5L sounds good but will require more planning, downtime, and money than a turbo. Another reason I like a turbo is that you can take it off and sell it if need be. Should the need arise, selling a built motor is alot harder because of the size and weight involved.
My biggest concern with either a built motor or turbocharger is what if I'm involved in an accident and my max gets totalled. Let's face it, with a high-mileage vehicle, an insurance company much rather write you a check and sell your car for parts to recoup some of the loss, than repair it. Again I think a turbocharger would be much easier to deal with in a situation like this.
IMO cams and ecu are not worth the cost and the amount of work that is necessary. A built 3.5L sounds good but will require more planning, downtime, and money than a turbo. Another reason I like a turbo is that you can take it off and sell it if need be. Should the need arise, selling a built motor is alot harder because of the size and weight involved.
My biggest concern with either a built motor or turbocharger is what if I'm involved in an accident and my max gets totalled. Let's face it, with a high-mileage vehicle, an insurance company much rather write you a check and sell your car for parts to recoup some of the loss, than repair it. Again I think a turbocharger would be much easier to deal with in a situation like this.
12-16-2002, 03:33 PM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,868
i would say boost for sure. it gives u more options, and its cheaper. with a built 3.5 there are complications u could run into and your car could be in the shop for a long time, or maybe it just wont work out right, u have seen the numbers people are putting down with a turbo setup. and like said before, if your in a bad accident (total worthy) u can just pull the turbo out in a couple hours or so, try pulling out and transporting a built motor, and then u have 5grand down the drain and i dont think insurance will cover that.
either way, good luck deciding! (this is one of those choices that keeps you up at night) when i was deciding between boost or 5speed swap it took me about 2 months to finally be sure of myself on getting the 5speed swap
either way, good luck deciding! (this is one of those choices that keeps you up at night) when i was deciding between boost or 5speed swap it took me about 2 months to finally be sure of myself on getting the 5speed swap
12-17-2002, 08:53 AM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,308
i was talking to the mechanic doing my S13. he said that a 2000 maxima would bolt on to the 4th gen head just fine. not sure about 2k2 motors though. turbo is the easy way to get it done that's for sure. you won't be able to boost very much with such high compression obviously. so you'll go fast, but you won't be able to push the limits of boost until you swap out the internals. that means more $$.
12-17-2002, 04:08 PM
#36
Handsome
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,074
Congrats again on the great all motor times.
In an ideal world I would get the 3.5 transplant. But how long are you planning on keeping your car?
The turbo would be relativly easy to take out and keep for the next car.
Swapping the motors back would probably be harder, and finding the next car for that motor would be harder than finding one to turbo.
The all motor budgeting would be my first choice, then the turbo, then the 3.5 swap. If practicality was out the window, my choices would be in reverse order.
Good luck, no matter which way you go you'll have a great setup.
Has the fact that your car is FWD, played any role on your choices?
In an ideal world I would get the 3.5 transplant. But how long are you planning on keeping your car?
The turbo would be relativly easy to take out and keep for the next car.
Swapping the motors back would probably be harder, and finding the next car for that motor would be harder than finding one to turbo.
The all motor budgeting would be my first choice, then the turbo, then the 3.5 swap. If practicality was out the window, my choices would be in reverse order.
Good luck, no matter which way you go you'll have a great setup.
Has the fact that your car is FWD, played any role on your choices?
12-17-2002, 07:08 PM
#38
Supporting Maxima.org Member
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Location: Leesburg,Virginia
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I think since you have claimed your fame as a fast all motor, why not just stick with that and go for the 3.5 swap. Also cause i want to see what the complications are cause i would like to do it when my engine gets a little more worn out. Would you do the work yourself?
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