A Case Against Debadging
12-12-2003, 10:10 AM
#1
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A Case Against Debadging
I posted a similar thread on the G35 forum, but it might stir some interest here also:
Let me offer some insight on why us older folks dislike debadging, or any radial mods for that matter.
It’s a matter of history. For example, I used to restore old cars. I belonged to clubs that would judge the accuracy of the restoration. The criteria was that the car should look exactly like it was when sold to its first owner out of the showroom, down to OEM accessories, colors, even the brand of spark plugs. Our purpose was to take a snapshot of past autos in stock condition.
Now us older people won’t be around 50 years from now. But we hope a few Maximas will survive and be accurately restored by some future car enthusiasts. If he starts with a debadged car he’s sunk. The availability of replacement badges in 2053 will be almost zero. Now the car will be junk, perhaps turned into a modern day dune buggy. Us older people, wanting the next generation to remember how we were, think that would be a shame.
Some of you may think this is silly. But try taking a 1930 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow and removing the famous hood ornament, debadging the Rolls-Royce name plate atop the grill and putting on different wheels. What you have left is a ridiculous, depression era rice rocket.
Let me offer some insight on why us older folks dislike debadging, or any radial mods for that matter.
It’s a matter of history. For example, I used to restore old cars. I belonged to clubs that would judge the accuracy of the restoration. The criteria was that the car should look exactly like it was when sold to its first owner out of the showroom, down to OEM accessories, colors, even the brand of spark plugs. Our purpose was to take a snapshot of past autos in stock condition.
Now us older people won’t be around 50 years from now. But we hope a few Maximas will survive and be accurately restored by some future car enthusiasts. If he starts with a debadged car he’s sunk. The availability of replacement badges in 2053 will be almost zero. Now the car will be junk, perhaps turned into a modern day dune buggy. Us older people, wanting the next generation to remember how we were, think that would be a shame.
Some of you may think this is silly. But try taking a 1930 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow and removing the famous hood ornament, debadging the Rolls-Royce name plate atop the grill and putting on different wheels. What you have left is a ridiculous, depression era rice rocket.
12-12-2003, 10:17 AM
#2
Thing is no one is gonna give a flying flip about a FWD sedan that Nissan never raced or had any significant value in terms of hp/performance etc....
That Silver Shadow you refer to was like buying a $100,000 car today. You bet no one is gonna modify that thing.
That Silver Shadow you refer to was like buying a $100,000 car today. You bet no one is gonna modify that thing.
12-12-2003, 10:24 AM
#3
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Thing is no one is gonna give a flying flip about a FWD sedan that Nissan never raced or had any significant value in terms of hp/performance etc....
That Silver Shadow you refer to was like buying a $100,000 car today. You bet no one is gonna modify that thing.
That Silver Shadow you refer to was like buying a $100,000 car today. You bet no one is gonna modify that thing.
It is like restoring an 88 Honda Accord in 20 years, why?Besides, if you keep all your OEM stuff (like me) I dont see what the biggie is.
12-12-2003, 10:28 AM
#4
Well to be honest, the first Honda car the S600 or S800 or something is worth a TON of $ in Japan if you can find one is mint original condition. Same with the first few Datsun cars/trucks. But those are exceptions. The Datsun 510, Roaster 1600/2000s the 240z and probably the Z32 TT are/will a part of history and valuable because they have significant racing histories
12-12-2003, 11:23 AM
#7
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You’d be surprised how many high production cars pop up as collectable some day:
’65 Mustang
Late forties Volkswagen
’57 Chevrolet
’49 Buick Riviera (first hard top ever)
Recent autos now out of production, e.g., Hudson, Studebaker, De Soto, Nash, La Salle, Imperial (And who knows yet about Plymouth and Oldsmobile)
Now I like the idea of keeping your OEM stuff, but would it still be there fifty years from now?
’65 Mustang
Late forties Volkswagen
’57 Chevrolet
’49 Buick Riviera (first hard top ever)
Recent autos now out of production, e.g., Hudson, Studebaker, De Soto, Nash, La Salle, Imperial (And who knows yet about Plymouth and Oldsmobile)
Now I like the idea of keeping your OEM stuff, but would it still be there fifty years from now?
12-12-2003, 11:30 AM
#8
Try to name that many Japanese cars w/o some type of racing history that have the same demand
By the time a maxima gets to be a collector's item, I'll probably be 90 years old and won't even know WTF a maxima is anymore. haha
By the time a maxima gets to be a collector's item, I'll probably be 90 years old and won't even know WTF a maxima is anymore. haha
12-12-2003, 11:42 AM
#11
As I've said before, the 510, 240z are already collectors and are worh more totally stock now. The early Subarus are worth a TON in Japan now. The Mazda R100s and 1st Cosmos are worth alot in Japan.
My buddy sold his 1976 Kawasaki 1000 for about $10 grand in Japan because they used that bike is some cult manga over there.
My buddy sold his 1976 Kawasaki 1000 for about $10 grand in Japan because they used that bike is some cult manga over there.
Originally Posted by look2me40
Skyline. That's it. MAYBE the Z's. Maxima might as well be a Buick Regal.
12-12-2003, 02:42 PM
#13
Originally Posted by look2me40
....Maxima might as well be a Buick Regal.
And the Buick GNX is a Regal (in body style only, but still...). But I see what Magellan is saying. Who's to say that 50+ years down the line, the Maxima, whatever the gen, will be someone's cult classic? I'm sure when they put together the 64 1/2 Mustangs, that wasn't the designers or builders' original thinking. They just wanted to make a nice-running, good-looking car that people will enjoy.
12-12-2003, 02:51 PM
#14
Actually, the Mustang was a just a relatively quick, 2 door RWD car that was assembled with mostly off the shelf components in an attempt to better compete with the Chevrolet offerings of the time...
But you're right, they never really intended it to be such a huge hit.
But you're right, they never really intended it to be such a huge hit.
12-12-2003, 04:02 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Magellan
Let me offer some insight on why us older folks dislike debadging, or any radial mods for that matter.
Debadging is a common practice over in Germany, including new higher end cars such as Benz, which you can order debadged from Mercedes. There are advantages for not advertising whats under the hood or an AMG or other special package.
12-12-2003, 05:10 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by njmaxseltd
I wasn't aware that debadging was a radical mod.
Debadging is a common practice over in Germany, including new higher end cars such as Benz, which you can order debadged from Mercedes. There are advantages for not advertising whats under the hood or an AMG or other special package.
Debadging is a common practice over in Germany, including new higher end cars such as Benz, which you can order debadged from Mercedes. There are advantages for not advertising whats under the hood or an AMG or other special package.
For example, years ago I restored a 1951 Pontiac. Previously, some past owner had replaced various front grill parts with those from a ’52, which were quite similar. There was a red medallion in the grill with a silhouette of an Indian in gold. But 1951 was Pontiac’s silver anniversary so for that year only the correct medallion was red with a silver silhouette. It took me five years to finally find one at a local swap meet. Somebody, perhaps decades before, had saved this part so I could eventually have a properly restored auto. He or she understood what it meant to old car collectors.
And I’m proud to say that I was asked to use this car in a film that was taking place in 1951. If you ever see Guilty by Suspicion (1991) with Robert De Niro you’ll see me driving my Pontiac in a few scenes.
12-12-2003, 05:18 PM
#17
Personally, I think debadging is retarded. Guys who debadge their cars are the same people who put stickers all over their fenders.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
12-12-2003, 06:40 PM
#18
Originally Posted by asu174
Personally, I think debadging is retarded. Guys who debadge their cars are the same people who put stickers all over their fenders.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
Well I debadged my Maxima and I hate people who rice their car out by putting stickers all over the place. I can't stand chessy emblems, especially the ones that came on my maxima.
12-12-2003, 07:37 PM
#20
the majority of the hot maximas on this site, the really done up and beautifully modded ones are debaged. arrafio, sadler, you name it, most of them are debaged. i agree some look too plain without them, but if done right, it adds to the cars mystery and beauty.
the thing with maximas, and modern cars, as opposed to older collectibles...there are plenty more of the newer ones made with cheaper plastic parts that are sitting in warehouses or dealerships so they'll be available for a long time. i think there will be plenty left in decent enough condition so they can be restored in the future if someone's looking to do it. compare the number of newer model cars made to the numbers of the past and that is essentially why they will always be around if someone wants one.
the thing with maximas, and modern cars, as opposed to older collectibles...there are plenty more of the newer ones made with cheaper plastic parts that are sitting in warehouses or dealerships so they'll be available for a long time. i think there will be plenty left in decent enough condition so they can be restored in the future if someone's looking to do it. compare the number of newer model cars made to the numbers of the past and that is essentially why they will always be around if someone wants one.
12-13-2003, 12:27 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by asu174
Personally, I think debadging is retarded. Guys who debadge their cars are the same people who put stickers all over their fenders.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
12-13-2003, 07:34 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by asu174
Personally, I think debadging is retarded. Guys who debadge their cars are the same people who put stickers all over their fenders.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
Some cars look okay debadged. The Maxima is not one of them.
My trunk is debagged and I can say with confindence that it looks a lot better. The 95-96 had maxima spread across the back and it looked retarded. The rear looks so much cleaner without it and the hamburger.
I will never put any stickers (other than maybe maxima.org window stickers on the rear small windows) on my car, especially the fenders.
To the original poster I honestly don't know what the thrill of restoring a car to what it was is. I would much rather see an older mustange with huge Mickey slicks on the back, and a blower coming out of the hood, then one with stock wheels and a stock engine. I really don't understand why someone would want to spend a ton of money and not make the car the way it should be.
I made my max the way it should have come from Nissan. Clears up front, red/clears out back, a conservative chrome exhaust, full suspension to get rid of the 4x4 look and more importantly the floating the stock suspension has (remember this car was marketed as a four door sports sedan at one time, it should be able to live up to that name) 17 inch wheels that look a lot like the stock SE wheels (only bigger, wider, and have an off-set with a chrome lip) and wrapping it up an SC for the power that any four door sports sedan enthusiast would want. So basically I have restored the maxima the way that it should have been made without being over the top (no body kit, it is not obvious the rims are aftermarket, and if you were not familiar with maximas you might think it was a great looking stock car) and I feal that people will be much more excited to see it rather than a regular max. Just my .02
12-13-2003, 08:22 AM
#26
It's all opinion.. If you don't like it, then you don't have to slam the guy for his thoughts.
I've been on both sides of the fence. My Maxima is about as chopped up as I've seen one, due to suspension and brake mods. Mine was already pretty nasty when I got it and most body parts weren't OEM-so screw keeping it original.
The Maxima is just another version of the Honda Accord- just built by nissan. It's a "nothing to see here, please move along" car. it handles decent, it looks decent, it's got decent power, but it's by no means an attention grabber. It doesn't do anything particularly well, as compared to other cars from various vendors. (if you want to argue, look at the sales numbers. If the Maxima was God's gift to autos as meny people here think it is, then Nissan would have sold a huge number more than they are).
My dad's '63 1/2 Ford Galaxie is another story. (and yes, it HAD a racing heritage, unlike the Maxima).. just 30 years down the road, a car that was purchased for $3000 will go for $50K+ if properly kept up or restored.
The badging is one of the most important parts of it, as they had about 8 trim levels of the same car, and it came in about 4 body styles and with at least 3 or 4 engines..
It had a straight 6 in it for the grandmas..
a 289 V8 that screamed when tuned right.. (same engine in the Mustangs and T-birds)
a 383 or so engine that was used in the high performance cars,
and one other engine that was used in the Race models. (Race models?! WTF?!) Yeah.. They made an all-aluminum body, 2-door version that was designed and built specifically so the car could compete in NASCAR. (NASCAR's rules were that the car must be in production and number at least 5000 or so on the street before the body could be used to race.).. The reason for the 63 1/2 instead of the 64 was the 63 1/2 had a fastback roof on it that help aerodynamics a LOT.
Transmissions? sure. you could get a 2 speed auto, a 3 speed column shift (with electric overdrive!), or a 4 speed floor shift, even a 4 spd modified Hurst shifter...
Prices? Well, Dad can't even sell his completely restored 500 for $5k, but the racing models go for $50k+... All depends on trim, rarity, and condition.
now THERE is a car with a History.
What can you tell me about the Maxima and it's "Grand Heritage" ?? Z engine? SO! They put the VG30 in every car they made almost! The Hardbody, Frontier, Pathfinder, Quest, Z, Maxima.... it's a workhorse engine that worked well under many applications, so it was used for them all.
About the only ones that might be worth anything were the floaters from 87/88 era that came here on boats while the paperwork went through smaller countries in order to get around the trade limitations set by our wonderful US government. but then again, they were just another Sedan with decent power.
These cars may or may not be worth something to someone some day, but they're certainly not anything spectacular on the sales floor or tearing up the streets like a Hemi was in the day it was produced..
Too many people think this FWD car is a race car.. it's NOT. get over it. it's a 4 door sedan that is designed to FEEL sporty, look sorta sporty, but still haul the groceries or business clients in comfort when required.
I've been on both sides of the fence. My Maxima is about as chopped up as I've seen one, due to suspension and brake mods. Mine was already pretty nasty when I got it and most body parts weren't OEM-so screw keeping it original.
The Maxima is just another version of the Honda Accord- just built by nissan. It's a "nothing to see here, please move along" car. it handles decent, it looks decent, it's got decent power, but it's by no means an attention grabber. It doesn't do anything particularly well, as compared to other cars from various vendors. (if you want to argue, look at the sales numbers. If the Maxima was God's gift to autos as meny people here think it is, then Nissan would have sold a huge number more than they are).
My dad's '63 1/2 Ford Galaxie is another story. (and yes, it HAD a racing heritage, unlike the Maxima).. just 30 years down the road, a car that was purchased for $3000 will go for $50K+ if properly kept up or restored.
The badging is one of the most important parts of it, as they had about 8 trim levels of the same car, and it came in about 4 body styles and with at least 3 or 4 engines..
It had a straight 6 in it for the grandmas..
a 289 V8 that screamed when tuned right.. (same engine in the Mustangs and T-birds)
a 383 or so engine that was used in the high performance cars,
and one other engine that was used in the Race models. (Race models?! WTF?!) Yeah.. They made an all-aluminum body, 2-door version that was designed and built specifically so the car could compete in NASCAR. (NASCAR's rules were that the car must be in production and number at least 5000 or so on the street before the body could be used to race.).. The reason for the 63 1/2 instead of the 64 was the 63 1/2 had a fastback roof on it that help aerodynamics a LOT.
Transmissions? sure. you could get a 2 speed auto, a 3 speed column shift (with electric overdrive!), or a 4 speed floor shift, even a 4 spd modified Hurst shifter...
Prices? Well, Dad can't even sell his completely restored 500 for $5k, but the racing models go for $50k+... All depends on trim, rarity, and condition.
now THERE is a car with a History.
What can you tell me about the Maxima and it's "Grand Heritage" ?? Z engine? SO! They put the VG30 in every car they made almost! The Hardbody, Frontier, Pathfinder, Quest, Z, Maxima.... it's a workhorse engine that worked well under many applications, so it was used for them all.
About the only ones that might be worth anything were the floaters from 87/88 era that came here on boats while the paperwork went through smaller countries in order to get around the trade limitations set by our wonderful US government. but then again, they were just another Sedan with decent power.
These cars may or may not be worth something to someone some day, but they're certainly not anything spectacular on the sales floor or tearing up the streets like a Hemi was in the day it was produced..
Too many people think this FWD car is a race car.. it's NOT. get over it. it's a 4 door sedan that is designed to FEEL sporty, look sorta sporty, but still haul the groceries or business clients in comfort when required.
12-13-2003, 09:49 AM
#27
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
My dad's '63 1/2 Ford Galaxie is another story. (and yes, it HAD a racing heritage, unlike the Maxima).. just 30 years down the road, a car that was purchased for $3000 will go for $50K+ if properly kept up or restored.
The badging is one of the most important parts of it, as they had about 8 trim levels of the same car, and it came in about 4 body styles and with at least 3 or 4 engines..
It had a straight 6 in it for the grandmas..
a 289 V8 that screamed when tuned right.. (same engine in the Mustangs and T-birds)
a 383 or so engine that was used in the high performance cars,
and one other engine that was used in the Race models. (Race models?! WTF?!) Yeah.. They made an all-aluminum body, 2-door version that was designed and built specifically so the car could compete in NASCAR. (NASCAR's rules were that the car must be in production and number at least 5000 or so on the street before the body could be used to race.).. The reason for the 63 1/2 instead of the 64 was the 63 1/2 had a fastback roof on it that help aerodynamics a LOT.
Actually I dont think they used a 383, they used a 390 FE or the 427 FE. The 390 is a LIGHT big block that is a monster, the 427 is even stronger I think it was around 400-475hp stock with over 500tq. If you are lucky enough to own a 427 cammer
those bad boys were around 785hp STOCK and the same tq DOHC V8 that started it all.
12-13-2003, 11:17 AM
#28
Originally Posted by dmontzmax
What do you have in your Galaxie?
Actually I dont think they used a 383, they used a 390 FE or the 427 FE. The 390 is a LIGHT big block that is a monster, the 427 is even stronger I think it was around 400-475hp stock with over 500tq. If you are lucky enough to own a 427 cammer those bad boys were around 785hp STOCK and the same tq DOHC V8 that started it all.
Actually I dont think they used a 383, they used a 390 FE or the 427 FE. The 390 is a LIGHT big block that is a monster, the 427 is even stronger I think it was around 400-475hp stock with over 500tq. If you are lucky enough to own a 427 cammer
those bad boys were around 785hp STOCK and the same tq DOHC V8 that started it all.I couldn't remember the exact numbers on the big engines.. Dad's has a 289 in it. Hasn't done much to it.. TRW Pistons, Crane street cam, Holley 750ish carb. he just wanted a cruiser.. but he's got all the original parts to go with the car.. spare tranny, three or four boxes of trim pieces that he got form junkyards, etc etc etc.
but yeah, the 309 and 427s were the bigger engines in them.. they were monsters... but the fun part is that you can build a 289 that will destroy them at shorter races. the 289 can run taller gearing and run to about 7k rpm, so shorter stoplight races were better in the 289.. A similarly prepped car with a 427 took until just before the quarter to catch up to the 289. they'd win by just a few hundredths most of the time.
(Dad used to race a '66 Fairlane with a built 289 in it.. little sucker would RUN.
)
12-13-2003, 11:54 AM
#29
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
I couldn't remember the exact numbers on the big engines.. Dad's has a 289 in it. Hasn't done much to it.. TRW Pistons, Crane street cam, Holley 750ish carb. he just wanted a cruiser.. but he's got all the original parts to go with the car.. spare tranny, three or four boxes of trim pieces that he got form junkyards, etc etc etc.
but yeah, the 309 and 427s were the bigger engines in them.. they were monsters... but the fun part is that you can build a 289 that will destroy them at shorter races. the 289 can run taller gearing and run to about 7k rpm, so shorter stoplight races were better in the 289.. A similarly prepped car with a 427 took until just before the quarter to catch up to the 289. they'd win by just a few hundredths most of the time.
(Dad used to race a '66 Fairlane with a built 289 in it.. little sucker would RUN. )
but yeah, the 309 and 427s were the bigger engines in them.. they were monsters... but the fun part is that you can build a 289 that will destroy them at shorter races. the 289 can run taller gearing and run to about 7k rpm, so shorter stoplight races were better in the 289.. A similarly prepped car with a 427 took until just before the quarter to catch up to the 289. they'd win by just a few hundredths most of the time.
(Dad used to race a '66 Fairlane with a built 289 in it.. little sucker would RUN.
)*sigh* that is why these are the kind of cars we should be worried about badging, not FWD V6's...makes me want to cry.
12-13-2003, 01:15 PM
#31
Wild at Hurt
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 580
Debadged AND no stickers. Why the generalization that debadgers are sticker pasters? I would bet just the opposite.
I agree on the red 51 Poncho
and the flying lady statue.
But these are nearly generic flash chromed plastic letters.
If my car had something made by a craftsman, I would probably keep it on.
I agree on the red 51 Poncho
and the flying lady statue.
But these are nearly generic flash chromed plastic letters.
If my car had something made by a craftsman, I would probably keep it on.
12-13-2003, 02:05 PM
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 102
I dont get it! If you restore the car, isn't it part of the restoration to make sure badging is accurate?
I remember my fisrt car, a 74 Impala. Man I wish I still had that car. It was $1700 in 1986. Perfect condition with Centerline wheels and an 8-track(for real). Not OEM but still a hot ride. I looked for one in 2001 and couldn't find a decent one for less than $6000. Most were $10-20K. You just never know which cars are going to be popular years down the line.
I remember my fisrt car, a 74 Impala. Man I wish I still had that car. It was $1700 in 1986. Perfect condition with Centerline wheels and an 8-track(for real). Not OEM but still a hot ride. I looked for one in 2001 and couldn't find a decent one for less than $6000. Most were $10-20K. You just never know which cars are going to be popular years down the line.
12-13-2003, 02:20 PM
#33
Originally Posted by CoolChuck
I dont get it! If you restore the car, isn't it part of the restoration to make sure badging is accurate?
I remember my fisrt car, a 74 Impala. Man I wish I still had that car. It was $1700 in 1986. Perfect condition with Centerline wheels and an 8-track(for real). Not OEM but still a hot ride. I looked for one in 2001 and couldn't find a decent one for less than $6000. Most were $10-20K. You just never know which cars are going to be popular years down the line.
I remember my fisrt car, a 74 Impala. Man I wish I still had that car. It was $1700 in 1986. Perfect condition with Centerline wheels and an 8-track(for real). Not OEM but still a hot ride. I looked for one in 2001 and couldn't find a decent one for less than $6000. Most were $10-20K. You just never know which cars are going to be popular years down the line.
As for the topic at-hand, I don't knock the people who debadge their rides...to each his own idea of beauty; but debadging is a definite no-no for those of us with the "coveted" SE-Limited's...without the lil' badges on the doors, how the hell would anyone know it was special? I'm shopping for another one and looking at 3 SE-L's (2 BRIGHT red, 1 green)...not counting the red ones, without the outside badging (and without being able to look inside the car), I couldn't be sure if I was looking at a '99 or a '99.5.
$.02...
12-13-2003, 03:33 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by VQPowerSE
or the bigger-uglier "hamburger-grill" logo on the front of the 5.5 gens. 
exactly my point, some of these logos need to be removedWhat is the huge concern...there might be a shortage of nissan/maxima logos? If you plan of having your front wheel drive, japanese family sedan restored one day, keep the badges somewhere, like with all your old stock parts. I kept my stock tail lights and stock corner lights, so i would keep the badges too. I really dont think this is going to become an issue, or that anyone is going to plan on doing a full resto.
you got your point about debadging it but who's really going to care just about any car that's going to be priceless in 50 yrs.
12-14-2003, 02:20 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by SXN
priceless or worthless? who wants to keep their maxima for 50 years? could yes... why?
12-14-2003, 02:32 PM
#38
Originally Posted by SXN
priceless or worthless? who wants to keep their maxima for 50 years? could yes... why?
12-14-2003, 02:47 PM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 484
Not everyone debadges their car.. a lot of people may debadge or do other custom things to their cars but there are still alot of stock maximas out on the roads owned by people who dont really care what it looks like with or without badging (Its just 4 wheels and an engine) and those cars will probably be around for anyone who wants to restore their maxima in the future.
12-14-2003, 03:37 PM
#40
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I think it’s difficult to ascertain what will or will not be collectable years from now.
I have this nightmare of the very first owner of the Mona Lisa when da Vinci was an unknown: He takes it home, breaks out a paint brush, paints in a big grin on her mouth with buck teeth showing. Next he takes out a knife and debadges the artist’s signature. He then says, “Now that looks better; I wonder if The Last Supper is for sale.”
I have this nightmare of the very first owner of the Mona Lisa when da Vinci was an unknown: He takes it home, breaks out a paint brush, paints in a big grin on her mouth with buck teeth showing. Next he takes out a knife and debadges the artist’s signature. He then says, “Now that looks better; I wonder if The Last Supper is for sale.”