Frank Fontaine

I'd say you are. You are saying that depreciation is a benefit to the buyer. What you are not acknowledging is that at any given point, years 0 (new) to 5, the depreciation is ALWAYS greater for the Nissan. How is that a benefit? That's like saying you got a great deal on a 4-bed/2.5 bath house because the neighborhood is going down the drain. C'mon now, where is this $413 number coming from? Hey, like I've said a million times before, whatever makes the buyer comfortable is key. If rationalization and philosophy is what it takes, that's ok. But the rest of the people should take the NBC Dateline approach which is to face the facts!

hotshtsr20

Uhh. i dont think you are understanding here. If you buy a NEW maxima, then YES, depreciation IS higher.

you see, if you bought the Maxima at the beginning of year 2, you saved $8119. if you buy the Accord at the same time, you only saved $4950. thats a $3169 savings by buying a Maxima.

the first year you own the maxima (making it 3 years old at the end of that year) you took a $2539 hit in depreciation. the Accord took $2297 in depreciation. thats a $242 more in depreciation. so, we subract that from the $3169 you saved originally, and you still saved $2927.

the second year you own the Max (4 years old), the Max took $213 more in depreciation, putting you at $2714 savings over accord.

the third year, the Max took $189 over the accord. you still saved $2525 had you invested in the H badge.

Fourth year, the Max took $168 over the Ackord. so, if you sell your Maxima after 4 faithful years of service, you still saved $2357 than if you had bought an accord. Did the Maxima depreciate more than the accord? yes. did it depreciate enough to offset your initial savings? NO.

that, is my friggin point. If you still havent figured it out, you have the INTELLIGENCE of a PRETZEL.

Mishap

Um, your logic doesn't hold...you can't compare two cars that weren't even the same price to being with. You might as well subtract the cheaper list price on the Accord into it's cost savings since you're not paying 30k for the Maxima.

The Accord is $21801 if you buy it in the 2nd year...it loses 35.4% of it's value so you can sell it for $14081 after the 5th year.

The Maxima is $22712 after 1 year and it drops to 14184 by the 5th year losing 37.5% of it's value in that same amount of time.

You don't see any of that $8000 savings b/c you're not given the $8000 by the previous owner. You're not driving a 30,000 car...you're driving a $22,000 one. It's lost value...disappeared forever to the Nismo Gods. You can't sell it back to the dealer for $30,000. The person who owns it the first year suffers that loss and it's not to your benefit other than if you're given only 2 choices between a new or a used Maxima. Even then compared to the Accord you still lose more value. You have to look on equal footing as in a 1 year old Maxima or a 1 year old Accord or in brand new ones. Both cost roughly the same and the Accord will lose less value over your time of ownership both used and to a greater extent new. The Accord will even lease for cheaper b/c it depreciates less. This is why the lease payments on a $9,000 Kia are the same as a $19,000 Mini Cooper.

I'm not exactly an expert on this stuff but your argument holds no value whatsover. Everything they taught me in my Econ degree from Cornell says the Accord is a better deal new or slightly used b/c it's ability to hold value and even it's cheaper initial cost.

Now if you're looking strictly at Maximas, buying used definitely saves tons off the depreciation hit Nissan is so nice to endow you with. Now if you're interested in rates of return for modding...the Maxima wins hands down. You won't find many 400whp stock block Accords around. The Maxima only wins out should you buy it after it drops below the Accord value and hold onto it until it's worth nothing.

hotshtsr20

fine.

here:

2001 Maxima, 66,000 miles: $11,075.
2001 Accord, 66,000 miles: $14,010

similiar options, engine size, etc.

$2935 price difference. according to www.kbb.com. Do you see the savings now? comes out to approx $2200 after depreciation difference (approx $700 more depreication than with the ackord)

start with that savings if you want, and then plug in the depreciation values. the maxima still comes out CHEAPER. my previous numbers were based off of the stats posted.

the $8000 saved was over buying new. you gave YOURSELF that money by not investing in that money pit known as a new car.

glad that degree at Cornell was so valuable.

Mishap

Yeah, I can't find a job w/ it but maybe I can interest you in investing in some nice 1 year old Maximas...guaranteed $8000 in returns b/c they're 1 year old vs. new.

That $2935 price difference only works out if you can drive both cars until they are worth nothing and continue operating for the exact same amount of time. Unfortunately most people here don't do that. They like to trade in or sell their cars while they are still worth something. That said the Maxima is still depreciating faster than the Accord so they lose more money that way.

If you can't see how a $25,000 Accord now worth $3,000 more than a $30,000 Maxima means the Maxima owner is losing more money then something is truly wrong w/ your ability to do basic math.

You don't pay yourself $8,000...you're not getting the same car 1 year later no matter how you try to justify it. If you buy the 1 year old car, it is worth $22,000. You can't sell it for 30,000 even if it's basically identical to the current year model. You may get the same utility out of driving it...but it will reach 0 on resale value before the new $30,000 one. The Accord's slower rate of drop means that you can trade it in for more if you ever sell it thereby reducing your actual costs.

There's nothing wrong w/ the stats posted...those are real calculated values for what the car is worth after each year. If you only buy used cars and drive them till they die depreciation doesn't mean much but that was the entire point of this discussion.

If I buy a $150,000 car and it loses the 16,000 the Max loses in 5 years...I still get back $134,000 when I sell it. That's money in my pocket...not hypothetical BS money if I bought this or if I bought that. It's like saying I lost 40 billion dollars if I had only bought Microsoft when it first went public. Do the same on a Maxima and I get $14,000 back on my initial $30,000 investment which sucks if you didn't notice. My buying a '92 Lexus LS400 for $3,000 does not mean I made $40,000 b/c I didn't buy it new. I didn't have the car for that period of time and I would have to drive something else.

After saying all of that...a car is the worst investment you can possibly make. Something that loses basically 90% of it's value within 10-15 years. If all we were concerned about were depreciation we would buy Kia's and Hyundais for cheap...depreciate them to nothing and drive them till their warranty ran out.

But we're not so buying a used Maxima b/c you like it is a good deal if you like the car vs buying new. Buying a Maxima as an investment b/c it's cheaper after 3 years than an Accord is absolutely retarded b/c it'll continue to lose value at the same rate it has from new.

MaximaMoJo

Cars are the worst investment possible period.

The buyer who purchases the Maxima new is not better off due to its high depreciation values. Due to the depreciation between the Maxima and Accord having the biggest difference in the first year. However, the used Maxima buyer is better off than the Accord buyer when buying used. This is having the assumption that the buyer will own the car until it is almost fully depreciated. Let me illustrate this a little more.

Maxima Bought At Year Beginning of Year 2 = 30,831 – 8119 = 22712

Savings End of Year 2 = 8950 – 2539 = 6411

Savings End of Year 3 = 6411 – 2235 = 4176

Savings End of Year 4 = 4176 – 1981 = 2195

Savings End of Year 5 = 2195 – 1777 = 418

Accord Bought At Year Beginning of Year 2 = 26,751 – 4950 = 21,801

Savings End of Year 2 = 4950 – 2297 = 2653

Savings End of Year 3 = 2653 – 2022 = 631

Savings End of Year 4 = 631 – 1792 = -1161

Savings End of Year 5 = -1161 – 1609 = -2770

This is taking into account that you have a car that is much better in build quality, features, and other luxury items the Maxima has that the Accord does not. Now if you look at just comparing the values to other cars. This next analysis looks at the cars as investments where the previous looks at cars as an expense. Also, this isn’t relevant if you don’t plan on selling the Maxima later on down the road. Anyway here is next analysis.

Maxima Bought At Year Beginning of Year 2 = 30,831 – 8119 = 22712

Savings End of Year 2 = 22712 – 2539 = 20173

Savings End of Year 3 = 20,173 – 2235 = 17938

Savings End of Year 4 = 17938 – 1981 = 15957

Savings End of Year 5 = 15957 – 1777 = 14180

Percentage of Purchase Price Retained = 14,180/22,712 = 62.433%

Accord Bought At Year Beginning of Year 2 = 26,751 – 4950 = 21,801

Savings End of Year 2 = 21,801 – 2297 = 19504

Savings End of Year 3 = 19504 – 2022 = 17482

Savings End of Year 4 = 17482 – 1792 = 15690

Savings End of Year 5 = 15690 – 1609 = 14081

Percentage of Purchase Price Retained = 14,081/21,801 = 64.588%

So, basically yes the Accord doesn’t lose as much value as the Maxima does used or new. I was wrong in this regard. Yes, flame me until the end of time! But, the thing that I don’t like about the last analysis is that it makes assumptions like the Maxima and Accord are exactly the same. This is like saying that a car is meant only to get you from point A to point B. So it depends on what you look at. I mean I look at as I have a chance to own a $30,000 vehicle for $13,000 (My original purchase price). If I bought an Accord I got to purchase a $26,000 vehicle for $13,000. Personally, they can keep there 2% and their Accord.

But Yes I was wrong from purely a money standpoint that the Maxima is a better value. At least I can admit it.

bonzelite

iTrader: (2)

i always buy used cars. i let the other lucky folks buy them new. then i keep them until they fall apart. then i have them fixed again.

your analysis is amazing, despite your error. you were mostly correct anyway. with the maxima, you get more for the money than say with a competitor. you get that maxima-ethic of performance with luxury that is not really found in the honda or camry.

you're really paying for the temporary new car smell and adreniline rush when you buy new. i'm sure that is nice.

Mishap

MaximaMoJo - I agree it makes sense to buy a Maxima used if that's the car you want. The topic was poor resale value which is a serious issue for all those who try to sell their Maximas if they bought it new or used.

As for buying a $30,000 car for $13,000...you're just getting a $13,000 car. I don't get a $100,000 car by buying a 1984 Bentley for $10,000. It's a $10,000 car w/ $100,000 car problems. Same goes for a used Max...it doesn't run well on regular and get 40mpg like a new Sentra will in that price point. It also doesn't have a warranty at that point and a portion of its usable life is gone.

For you guys driving your cars until they die depreciation isn't an issue so don't be so sensitive about people talking about how a Maxima depreciates faster than a Honda Accord. There is higher demand for older Accords since they seem to have a better reputation and tend to suit people who buy used cars better. They don't take premium gas and get better gas mileage in general b/c of 4 cylinder models.

Cars w/ luxury appointments short of BMW's tend to lose value fast. People looking to save money buying used tend to value low mileage and inexpensive maintenance costs over leather, sunroof, or V6. That doesn't mean the Max isn't providing a lot for the money.

As for build quality over an Accord...only the engine is superior. The rest of the car reeks of cost cutting. I've worked on enough of these cars to see where Nissan cut corners especially 4th-5th gen models. Then again my Prelude doesn't even have door courtesy lights.

bonzelite

iTrader: (2)

i do know that one of the most stolen cars in LA is the honda accord. next is the camry. so old or new, we maxima nuts ain't gonna have that problem. not really. i'm more concerned with my wheels being stolen. not the car. nobody cares.

there are just more hondas bought and and sold in general. and they are in more of a demand. one would think that if the market were saturated with the same car, they'd be devalued. but the opposite is true. because so many people drive hondas and toyotas, so many people need parts. and the wave spreads and everyone wants one, too. they're more popular. price goes up. stays up.

i've seen, too, that parts for nissan are more expensive in general than the other guys. like wicked expensive. so let's go get us a honda! (puke).

Mishap

Maximas are most popular car in the northeast being NJ, NY. They're the most commonly stolen car there too. Really depends on where you are in the country. F150's most commonly stolen in Texas etc. For the NE guys theft and HID theft problems are an issue.

High theft rates affect insurance but the chances of your specific Accord or Maxima getting stolen is pretty low. My Prelude apparently is pretty high on the list...something like 4 per 1000 cars. Not nearly as bad as the Integra which gets something like 20 per 1000. Maxima engines don't fit anything but Maximas so the demand for them isn't there.

bonzelite

iTrader: (2)

i have noticed that there are a LOT of members from the NE part of the country on this org.

Frank Fontaine

Yeah, you're right. People at times are ready to go with a short fuse for whatever reason, so much so that they obscure facts. After researching BMW's, I found that even though the depreciation is rock-solid, ie excellent, that is from a % standpoint. The actual $ amount is almost as much as a Maxima in its 1st year, making the BMW expensive (3 series). But % wise way better than a Maxima. Then again, the Maxima is an artificial price anyway. At any given time a Nissan could get a factory rebate.

If the topic of affordability is brought up, people are so sensitive they claim they choose Maxima but can afford a BMW. Sheesh! Afford means being willing and able to buy which constitutes a demand. A person who buys a Maxima is definitely not willing to buy a BMW, and most likely, but not for certain, not able to either. Hey, there's no shame in not wanting to pay $1200 for 4 brakes, which is what an M3 runs. You're not gonna use pliers or a c-clamp to do its brakes. Heck, it doesn't even come in half with only 1 piston on the inside, that's just not the cheesy nature of the brakes in a BMW. I openly admit I paid $31 for the caliper tool and get Nissan rear pads for about $38--do I sound like a person who would like to pay over a grand for brakes? Of course not. That $1200 I'd rather spend on a Viking dishwasher!

But I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about getting what you pay for. You buy a 190,000 house in Dallas, that's what you're getting. You buy a 700,000 house in Boston, that's what you're getting. They may be the same in square footage and identical looking, but you're still getting what you pay for. I'll take the latter, if I can afford it, any day of the week. I wouldn't get the former and claim I could have the latter but don't want it.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

The stock exhaust really gets me. The S pipe behind the 97-99 cat is soooooooooo dumb. Its restrictive and lowers the B pipe below the frame (for lack of better word). The flex section comes apart. The hangers rust off.... yeah I hate the exhaust.

hotshtsr20

really? i cant sell a used maxima for $30,000? damn, you should be an indusrty analyst, you could tell people all kinds of important tips. Im glad you warned me, i was planning on doing this for a living.

you DO pay yourself $8,000. youre just not looking at it the right way. by buying used, you saved $8,000 (or whatever) because you didnt go out and buy that new car, essentially putting money in your pocket you can spend for more important things. Cars are horrible investments, which is why i buy used: to lose as little money as possible. let someone else pay for that huge hit the first year of ownership.

How is buying a $30,000 car a couple of years down the road like buying a $100,000 bentley for $10,000? that car is MANY years older, has REALLY expensive parts and is British, therefore completely unreliable (Jags, Bentleys, MGs, Astons, all british, all crap). That was a completely unrelated comparison. How about we compare operating costs to something related: an Accord. the O2 sensors are about $180 each from kragen. I dont even want to imagine how much they cost from Honda. coil packs: expensive (more so than the Max). Ever try to change a clutch on ANY honda? you have to take apart the whole damned front suspension just to get the axles out. Just about anything on that car reeks of high replacement cost. the Maxima is extremely reliable AND it has the lowest warranty replacement costs per car of ANY car in its class.

besides, a 1 or 2 year old maxima is still under warranty. i found nearly a dozen 2002 Maximas for ~ $13,000 at the local nissan dealership (not exactly known for its deals on used cars) with plenty of miles left on the original warranty. Most of the problems (if they are going to show) happen towards the end of the warranty or after it anyway, so youre really in the same boat. Warranty claims are expensive, so manufaturers design them to last longer that the warranty, funny how that works. Extended warranties were approx $2000, for up to 70,000 or 80,000 miles. Total would then be about $15,000. this would be the same price as a Spec V. the Spec V would have no homelink (no matter what you do, not offered). No ultra smooth 227 hp V6, you get a tinny sounding 4 with 170 hp that wont rev for beans (ultra high piston speeds, weak valvespings, etc). Crap shifter feel. Harsh ride with no real handling benefits. Funky interior. No space. The styling on the new sentra is horrible. The list goes on and on.

i looked at accords too, most were about $17-20,000 for similiar options and miles/condition (V6, sunroof, 20,000 miles) and the extended warranty was another $3,000. Way too much money for a rather boring car. Where's the TQ?

i ended up finding this maxima at another dealership for $7700. 66,000 miles, 5 spd. Perfect paint and body. No warranty, but my dad's a TV repairman, and he has a killer set of tools. i can fix it man! (alright, no more Fast Times At Ridgmemont High quotes, i promise).

but, we digress. apparently there is another opinion other than mine. if you want to continue this wonderful debate, PM me, I am sure some people want this debate to stop.

MaximaPolak

iTrader: (9)

The only flaw I see in the Maxima is the sh.it that nissan puts customers through.

I really don't mind the FWD.
I love the engine.

RastaManMax

iTrader: (5)

Biggest flaw is rear beam.

LEMAR

FanaticMadMax

I have to say the biggest flaw is the rear torsion beam suspsension instead of the independent axle.

bonzelite

iTrader: (2)

not in my case. but i see your point. but i have to live with the dorky automatic belts.

hotshtsr20

i dont know if you guys are doing this, but the B14 SE-R guys (who share the same basic suspension) have been bending the rear beam to take out the toe in that is built into it from the factory. this toe in fights turn in, and adds additional load to the fron tires. a little toe in is nice for high speed stability, but nissan put a lot into it, like nearly 1" of toe in. i had my rear beam bent by Darin @ West End Alignment (i can get his phone # if you want) to 0" toe and it made a HUGE difference in handling. Gone is the nasty front end plow (i can even get it to 4 wheel drift VERY consistently) and the steering and handling feel is perfect. before, you had to run some pretty nasty spring rates in the rear to get it to have a nice neutral feel, which made it really hairy at the edge. now, i reduced my rear spring rate (450F/400R, this is a B14, so i dont need the same rates to stave off body roll) and it is very intuitive for handling. it handles with the same turn in and tossability that the older B13 SE-R with its independent rear suspension has, but the stability that the B14 offers. the rear beam suspension has NO toe or camber curve on turn in, making your alignment consistent throughout the suspension's travel, this makes it more stable and consistent, a good thing if you ask me.

so, if you like to autocross, or want a "lively" handling car, set rear toe to 0". if you want a little more safety and understeer (good for those who arent track seasoned drivers) run about 1/8" or so toe in, more rear toe in means more high speed stability and understeer. be careful with turning and braking at the same time, as the car is MUCH more willing to rotate (just like the older IRS cars).

the only drawback i see to a bent rear suspension is the ride quality isnt as good as independent, but you cant have everything.

not every alignment shop can do this. i think the only person in the US is Darin @ west end alignment. it requires a special jig to bend it properly.

Frank Fontaine

I just skimmed your post so I'm just giving my .02. What I took away from what you said is a 1 1/2 yr. old Maxima is 13 grand, and accord 4 more than that. I think we all agree that's in the ballpark, I think a 2k2 is maybe a little more than 13, maybe 15-16, but who knows, maybe it's 13. As long as we all acknowledge that the 30k Maxima price is totally artificial, then we are all really saying the same thing. An Acura TL Type S costs more than a Maxima, when it is driven off the lot, and at any given point in time if it's the same model year from thereon. They're not equal, period. What is hokey is the people who claim they compared a Maxima to a BMW and decided to go with the Maxima. That's just not very realistic or mature. And there's nothing wrong with having a Maxima today and aspiring to a BMW when the finances fall into place. But to claim "I can afford both and and so smart that I chose a Maxima or a minivan or suv," well, that's like saying I compared a GE Profile gas range to a Viking, and went with the GE Profile. The former is about $1600 and the latter $3800. And yes Virginia, you get what you pay for.

waveridr85

iTrader: (4)

seats, seats seats, they absolutly suck, eels liek im sitting in a folding chair

TZapper

Interior rattling.

Chuck Vaughan

Besides the public's bias towards Toyota and Honda products, I think Nissan itself is partly responsible for the low resale value of the Maxima. When they introduced the "Maxima 2000", they did so in about april of 1999. Which left a lot of leftover 1999's on the lot for a long time, which they then sold at deep deep discounts. Goodbye resale value for anyone who just bought a 1999 in October, and forget it for people that bought 1998's in Sept.

Same thing happens in 2003; not only is there an Altima with the same engine and nearly the same appointments for less money, but then the 6th generation comes out mid-year. There goes your resale value.

The flaws that I have noticed in my 4th gen:

Trunk release button on the door is in a bad location and is always active; I have popped my trunk out on the road several times;

Dashboard rattles; I have had to stuff all sorts of compressible foam in the dash crevices and cover the glovebox mating surfaces with weatherstrip, and new rattles still crop up;

No transmission indicator on the dashboard (the crappy cargo vans at work have this!)

The gooseneck hinges and torsion bars for the trunk hinges are 1950's technology;

Going from IRS to a beam axle in 1995 was a total bean-counter move;

The seats get pretty uncomfortable after a long ride;

I still love it, though; I've had it for 6 years and have 116k miles on it and I still love my car. I have never owned a car for this long before, and have always gotten bored with what I'm drivng after 3 years or so. Not so with the Max.

Frank Fontaine

Now that you mention it, the hinges are very unrefined. The lack of a folding rear seat is really pretty stupid on the 4th gen, but it saved a few $ on production costs.

btw it's not a bias towards Toyota and Honda, they're better cars both from a quality standpoint and design as well. Not everyone looking for a car makes their decision strictly on HP, which Nissan will always have more of when comparing like models. I'll say it a million times even to deaf ears, Nissan's list prices are totally artificial. An Armada made in MS for 43k?? C'mon now. And who is gonna pay more than 28k for a Maxima made in MS? If you do, don't belly-ache when the car wholesales for 15k 2 years later!

Anyway, here's food for thought--1/3 of all cars that are purchased, the owners owe more on the car than its worth. That's why they invented gap insurance.

bk2kmax

Well actually it is 2 flaws, 1 everyone has already said and that is FWD, the other is that this car needs an independent rear suspension instead of the beam axle.

Andyman692

so bk2kmax,

you're saying that maxima owners are sacrificing quality for HP/Speed?

Is there any toyo or honda that can do what the maxima does for the same price? Or if you pay more, you can do what the maxima does with the quality right?

im thinkin about gettin a '97 with 60k miles on it, i hear all this moaning, so should i look at something else? Thousands of people here didn't just buy it for the looks, right?!

nismology

iTrader: (8)

There is another thread in this forum about why the owners here purchased their maximas, and most will agree the bang-for-the-buck factor overshadows the negative issues...