My Next BlehmCo Project... Big REAR Brakes!
07-24-2004, 08:56 AM
#1
My Next BlehmCo Project... Big REAR Brakes!
yup.. finally finished it yesterday. took several months running between my shop and the fab shop, but here ya go... all done. works great!
And yes, there IS a parking brake back there. No, it's not off a Z32 like the calipers and rotors.
Yes, there are a lot of custom parts I had to fab.
No, you can't just piece these together from junk parts... (well you can for some, but there's a lot of custom fab involved too.. good luck getting the parts made for you.)
Install is a PITA. I'd say 8 out of 10 on work required, but 6/10 on difficulty.
If you have worked on drum brakes before, this will be cake. If you've never done them, then you'd be best off taking it to a shop.
Price? TBA. I'm still working out details with the accountant. You're going to be very pleased though.
And yes, there IS a parking brake back there. No, it's not off a Z32 like the calipers and rotors.
Yes, there are a lot of custom parts I had to fab.
No, you can't just piece these together from junk parts... (well you can for some, but there's a lot of custom fab involved too.. good luck getting the parts made for you.)
Install is a PITA. I'd say 8 out of 10 on work required, but 6/10 on difficulty.
If you have worked on drum brakes before, this will be cake. If you've never done them, then you'd be best off taking it to a shop.
Price? TBA. I'm still working out details with the accountant. You're going to be very pleased though.
07-24-2004, 05:03 PM
#8
No, he said:
So the calipers and rotors are off a Z32 (you were right), but the parking brake is not.
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
And yes, there IS a parking brake back there. No, it's not off a Z32 like the calipers and rotors.
07-24-2004, 06:11 PM
#9
Yes, those are Z32 calipers and rotors. Some of the the internal parts are off another car, and the rest of them are custom fabbed by me.
The car is Mike Hill's (kwd2kse) 2000 Maxima. Not mine- wish it was! He's just my local test mule for goodies like this..
So far, the performance on them is GREAT, but we're waiting a little while to really beat on them. I will tell you that with me driving, he was nauseated and made me pull over after just three 60-5mph stops.. We haven't got enough miles on it yet to really say much, but the calculations I've made on everything this should be very similar to the factory bias with this kit in back and the Z32 calipers and 2004 Max rotor up front.
The master cylinder is possibly a tad small for this, as the pedal is a bit spongy, but I also think it's because of the Valvoline fluid we used. I've noticed it tends to be a little spongy after a bleeding, and it will firm up in a hundred miles or so. Very annoying, but my car does that as well with ATE blue.
Anyway, we're going to give the car a few hundred miles to break everything in, then I'll pull it apart and check everything over before offering the kit for sale. Look to see a group deal or something on them in the next few weeks.
The car is Mike Hill's (kwd2kse) 2000 Maxima. Not mine- wish it was! He's just my local test mule for goodies like this..
So far, the performance on them is GREAT, but we're waiting a little while to really beat on them. I will tell you that with me driving, he was nauseated and made me pull over after just three 60-5mph stops.. We haven't got enough miles on it yet to really say much, but the calculations I've made on everything this should be very similar to the factory bias with this kit in back and the Z32 calipers and 2004 Max rotor up front.
The master cylinder is possibly a tad small for this, as the pedal is a bit spongy, but I also think it's because of the Valvoline fluid we used. I've noticed it tends to be a little spongy after a bleeding, and it will firm up in a hundred miles or so. Very annoying, but my car does that as well with ATE blue.
Anyway, we're going to give the car a few hundred miles to break everything in, then I'll pull it apart and check everything over before offering the kit for sale. Look to see a group deal or something on them in the next few weeks.
07-24-2004, 09:38 PM
#12
I'm trying to keep the price down as much as I can on them... They're not going to be cheap by any means, but I will tell you that most front brake kits will cost significantly more- especially if they say Brembo or AP on them. 
I'm going to try to keep the entire thing (with new pads & rotors and used Z32 calipers) to under $1000. That's my goal on it, but it will depend on final fab shop prices and such, and how many people are truly interested in it. I can't buy these parts just 1-2 at a time do to the machining lot charges, and they're too expensive to buy 20 sets out of my pocket and have them sitting on the shelf for months.
What I'm going to do is basically have a pre-order set up so you pay half up front, I get the parts in stock, then collect the other half of the money before shipping. that will help me offset the machining costs and ensure you guys have a kit with your name on it.
I'm going to try to keep the entire thing (with new pads & rotors and used Z32 calipers) to under $1000. That's my goal on it, but it will depend on final fab shop prices and such, and how many people are truly interested in it. I can't buy these parts just 1-2 at a time do to the machining lot charges, and they're too expensive to buy 20 sets out of my pocket and have them sitting on the shelf for months.
What I'm going to do is basically have a pre-order set up so you pay half up front, I get the parts in stock, then collect the other half of the money before shipping. that will help me offset the machining costs and ensure you guys have a kit with your name on it.
07-25-2004, 09:09 AM
#13
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
I'm trying to keep the price down as much as I can on them... They're not going to be cheap by any means, but I will tell you that most front brake kits will cost significantly more- especially if they say Brembo or AP on them.
I'm going to try to keep the entire thing (with new pads & rotors and used Z32 calipers) to under $1000. That's my goal on it, but it will depend on final fab shop prices and such, and how many people are truly interested in it. I can't buy these parts just 1-2 at a time do to the machining lot charges, and they're too expensive to buy 20 sets out of my pocket and have them sitting on the shelf for months.
What I'm going to do is basically have a pre-order set up so you pay half up front, I get the parts in stock, then collect the other half of the money before shipping. that will help me offset the machining costs and ensure you guys have a kit with your name on it.
I'm going to try to keep the entire thing (with new pads & rotors and used Z32 calipers) to under $1000. That's my goal on it, but it will depend on final fab shop prices and such, and how many people are truly interested in it. I can't buy these parts just 1-2 at a time do to the machining lot charges, and they're too expensive to buy 20 sets out of my pocket and have them sitting on the shelf for months.
What I'm going to do is basically have a pre-order set up so you pay half up front, I get the parts in stock, then collect the other half of the money before shipping. that will help me offset the machining costs and ensure you guys have a kit with your name on it.
07-25-2004, 10:41 PM
#18
16s will be too small for the front brakes, but the rears should fit fine under any wheels that will fit the "stock" 300ZX conversion..
Larrio, the Max master cyl is 15/16" and the Z is 1".
the pedal is a tad spongy on Mike's 5th gen, but it's still more than enough to lock the tires. I engaged ABS twice just playing around, and wasn't even really trying to do it. they just bite THAT hard now. I still think most of the spongy is more to do with the brake fluid and pads than anything. He said it did start going away after a day of driving the car.
Larrio, the Max master cyl is 15/16" and the Z is 1".
the pedal is a tad spongy on Mike's 5th gen, but it's still more than enough to lock the tires. I engaged ABS twice just playing around, and wasn't even really trying to do it. they just bite THAT hard now. I still think most of the spongy is more to do with the brake fluid and pads than anything. He said it did start going away after a day of driving the car.
07-26-2004, 05:48 AM
#22
Originally Posted by Larrio
Could you please elaborate on that? thanks
07-26-2004, 11:37 AM
#23
Brake fluid?
there's tons of good fluids out there- just some are a little spongy to start with. I run ATE blue or yellow in my car, and it's great stuff- but I always make it a point to bleed it a few days before an event so the pedal has a chance to firm up again before going out onto the track.
stuff I'd recommend
ATE blue/yellow
MOTUL
Wilwood's fluid (I'm guessing it's MOTUL in a wilwood bottle, but I have no real basis to argue that point. still good stuff nonetheless.)
Castrol LMA fluid
Ford DOT 3
Valvoline Synthetic
Again, there's still plenty of pedal there- way more than enough to lock the brakes up-- but it's a hair softer than before because you're doubling the piston area in the rear over the stock calipers.
there's tons of good fluids out there- just some are a little spongy to start with. I run ATE blue or yellow in my car, and it's great stuff- but I always make it a point to bleed it a few days before an event so the pedal has a chance to firm up again before going out onto the track.
stuff I'd recommend
ATE blue/yellow
MOTUL
Wilwood's fluid (I'm guessing it's MOTUL in a wilwood bottle, but I have no real basis to argue that point. still good stuff nonetheless.)
Castrol LMA fluid
Ford DOT 3
Valvoline Synthetic
Again, there's still plenty of pedal there- way more than enough to lock the brakes up-- but it's a hair softer than before because you're doubling the piston area in the rear over the stock calipers.
07-26-2004, 10:47 PM
#24
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 838
Time for a product review!!
OK. I'm the test mule for the Matt's front, and now the rear brake kits. I've got almost 200 miles on the rear brakes at this point, so its time for me to chime in with my observations.
After the pics above were taken and before we road tested the car, we powdercoated the rear rotors black to make them match the fronts. We made the mistake of getting some powder on the wear surface. This on top of the zinc plating was a mistake. It took about 100 miles to wear it off. Once it was gone, the pedal feel changed for the better. I also have stainless brakes lines front and rear now. As Matt mentioned, I have Valvoline synthetic brake flued.
Compared to having the 300ZX front calipers and stock rears: brake pedal travel is about 1/2 cm more now before brake engagement-VERY minor. The pedal is firmer. The sponginess we encountered on the initial drive is gone - I believe when the powder coat and the zinc plating was off the pad surface this issue went away. I do not feel a master cylinder change is necessary. Under normal, average, conservative driving conditions (ie, not trying to throw passengers out the windshield) the brakes behave comparable to the stock system. When you push the pedal harder, you better be holding on. On a 50mph to zero demo for my 16 year old son today, his rear end came off the passenger seat and was held in by the seat belt. Thought his eyes were going to pop out. And yes I'm older, the stop made my nauseous again - it stops that hard and fast. The ABS engaged twice, only for a split second , on the stop. I'm also running Bridgestone S-03's with 1/4 tread, size 245/45/17. These tires stick like there's glue on the road.
Last but equally important for me. With the front 300ZX calipers and stock rears, the nose of the car would dive drastically on heavy braking. Now, the car stays fairly flat, similar to the stock brake system. The brake bias seems to be just a tad more to the back compared to stock. But thats my 30 years of agressive and racing driving experience saying that, not any sophisticated equipment. All you guys with front only BBK - 300ZX, Brembo, Wilwood AP Racing, etc - this rear system is a must. And for you guys running cheap tires, get some good tires to get the full potential out of these brakes.
Mike
After the pics above were taken and before we road tested the car, we powdercoated the rear rotors black to make them match the fronts. We made the mistake of getting some powder on the wear surface. This on top of the zinc plating was a mistake. It took about 100 miles to wear it off. Once it was gone, the pedal feel changed for the better. I also have stainless brakes lines front and rear now. As Matt mentioned, I have Valvoline synthetic brake flued.
Compared to having the 300ZX front calipers and stock rears: brake pedal travel is about 1/2 cm more now before brake engagement-VERY minor. The pedal is firmer. The sponginess we encountered on the initial drive is gone - I believe when the powder coat and the zinc plating was off the pad surface this issue went away. I do not feel a master cylinder change is necessary. Under normal, average, conservative driving conditions (ie, not trying to throw passengers out the windshield) the brakes behave comparable to the stock system. When you push the pedal harder, you better be holding on. On a 50mph to zero demo for my 16 year old son today, his rear end came off the passenger seat and was held in by the seat belt. Thought his eyes were going to pop out. And yes I'm older, the stop made my nauseous again - it stops that hard and fast. The ABS engaged twice, only for a split second , on the stop. I'm also running Bridgestone S-03's with 1/4 tread, size 245/45/17. These tires stick like there's glue on the road.
Last but equally important for me. With the front 300ZX calipers and stock rears, the nose of the car would dive drastically on heavy braking. Now, the car stays fairly flat, similar to the stock brake system. The brake bias seems to be just a tad more to the back compared to stock. But thats my 30 years of agressive and racing driving experience saying that, not any sophisticated equipment. All you guys with front only BBK - 300ZX, Brembo, Wilwood AP Racing, etc - this rear system is a must. And for you guys running cheap tires, get some good tires to get the full potential out of these brakes.
Mike
07-26-2004, 10:54 PM
#26
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 838
Thanks for the comments on the car, even if it was dirty for me, and the Konig's are my spare wheels. I got a nail in the sidewall of one of the Michelin's that are mounted on the Volks. They'll be back on the car soon.
07-27-2004, 10:10 AM
#27
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by kwd2kSE
Compared to having the 300ZX front calipers and stock rears: brake pedal travel is about 1/2 cm more now before brake engagement-VERY minor. The pedal is firmer. The sponginess we encountered on the initial drive is gone - I believe when the powder coat and the zinc plating was off the pad surface this issue went away. I do not feel a master cylinder change is necessary. Under normal, average, conservative driving conditions (ie, not trying to throw passengers out the windshield) the brakes behave comparable to the stock system. When you push the pedal harder, you better be holding on. On a 50mph to zero demo for my 16 year old son today, his rear end came off the passenger seat and was held in by the seat belt. Thought his eyes were going to pop out. And yes I'm older, the stop made my nauseous again - it stops that hard and fast. The ABS engaged twice, only for a split second , on the stop. I'm also running Bridgestone S-03's with 1/4 tread, size 245/45/17. These tires stick like there's glue on the road.
Last but equally important for me. With the front 300ZX calipers and stock rears, the nose of the car would dive drastically on heavy braking. Now, the car stays fairly flat, similar to the stock brake system. The brake bias seems to be just a tad more to the back compared to stock. But thats my 30 years of agressive and racing driving experience saying that, not any sophisticated equipment. All you guys with front only BBK - 300ZX, Brembo, Wilwood AP Racing, etc - this rear system is a must. And for you guys running cheap tires, get some good tires to get the full potential out of these brakes.
Mike
Last but equally important for me. With the front 300ZX calipers and stock rears, the nose of the car would dive drastically on heavy braking. Now, the car stays fairly flat, similar to the stock brake system. The brake bias seems to be just a tad more to the back compared to stock. But thats my 30 years of agressive and racing driving experience saying that, not any sophisticated equipment. All you guys with front only BBK - 300ZX, Brembo, Wilwood AP Racing, etc - this rear system is a must. And for you guys running cheap tires, get some good tires to get the full potential out of these brakes.
Mike
I too also have nasty nose dive with just the front BBK. In fact because of this, I was going to get a set of those D2 coilovers. But if this balances out the car....itll keep me outta trouble with my wife.
1/2 CM is virtually undetectable. To "ME" that is worth while. Thanks for the review and continue to post with feedback for those of us that are probably pulling the trigger...but might be having some buyers remorse...hehe.
07-27-2004, 12:18 PM
#28
Jon, the nosedive problem will NOT go away with the coilovers. (I know from experience). That would be like pouring tons of cornstach into the river to plus the dam.. it's just covering up the problem..... Which is huge front brake bias.
I've done the numbers on all this stuff and with the Z32 rears and my Z32 BBK up front, the brake bias is within a couple % of stock. it's 1-2-3% more toward the rear- which is fine. The cars have a bit of front bias tendency to begin with to make them more safe for the soccer mom that slams on her brakes in a corner. with tons of rear bias, the back end will come around. with more front bias, it just plows straight ahead- easier to control push than spin.
Since the people that will be interested in this kit are going to be either track junkies that need better brakes, OR they're going to be ballers with a big system in the back, both groups will benefit from slightly more rear bias. so it's exactly what the car needs.
back to the point... the nosedive is just about gone with this kit. bias is back to factory, or just a tad better- which is needed.
does that help, or just muddy the waters any more?
I've done the numbers on all this stuff and with the Z32 rears and my Z32 BBK up front, the brake bias is within a couple % of stock. it's 1-2-3% more toward the rear- which is fine. The cars have a bit of front bias tendency to begin with to make them more safe for the soccer mom that slams on her brakes in a corner. with tons of rear bias, the back end will come around. with more front bias, it just plows straight ahead- easier to control push than spin.
Since the people that will be interested in this kit are going to be either track junkies that need better brakes, OR they're going to be ballers with a big system in the back, both groups will benefit from slightly more rear bias. so it's exactly what the car needs.
back to the point... the nosedive is just about gone with this kit. bias is back to factory, or just a tad better- which is needed.
does that help, or just muddy the waters any more?
07-27-2004, 12:37 PM
#29
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Jon, the nosedive problem will NOT go away with the coilovers. (I know from experience). That would be like pouring tons of cornstach into the river to plus the dam.. it's just covering up the problem..... Which is huge front brake bias.
I've done the numbers on all this stuff and with the Z32 rears and my Z32 BBK up front, the brake bias is within a couple % of stock. it's 1-2-3% more toward the rear- which is fine. The cars have a bit of front bias tendency to begin with to make them more safe for the soccer mom that slams on her brakes in a corner. with tons of rear bias, the back end will come around. with more front bias, it just plows straight ahead- easier to control push than spin.
Since the people that will be interested in this kit are going to be either track junkies that need better brakes, OR they're going to be ballers with a big system in the back, both groups will benefit from slightly more rear bias. so it's exactly what the car needs.
back to the point... the nosedive is just about gone with this kit. bias is back to factory, or just a tad better- which is needed.
does that help, or just muddy the waters any more?
I've done the numbers on all this stuff and with the Z32 rears and my Z32 BBK up front, the brake bias is within a couple % of stock. it's 1-2-3% more toward the rear- which is fine. The cars have a bit of front bias tendency to begin with to make them more safe for the soccer mom that slams on her brakes in a corner. with tons of rear bias, the back end will come around. with more front bias, it just plows straight ahead- easier to control push than spin.
Since the people that will be interested in this kit are going to be either track junkies that need better brakes, OR they're going to be ballers with a big system in the back, both groups will benefit from slightly more rear bias. so it's exactly what the car needs.
back to the point... the nosedive is just about gone with this kit. bias is back to factory, or just a tad better- which is needed.
does that help, or just muddy the waters any more?
I dont fit either catagory though...not a track junkie or system man.
Hit me up in PM with what you think my price tag is going to be with the options you know Ill need. Basically I am going to want to do the back just like the front.
Plus, any good pics of it? They look cool in through the rims....but I want to see the "techie" stuff to see what I am getting into...
Sigh....anybody want to loan me some $$$?
07-27-2004, 03:38 PM
#33
Originally Posted by 1MAX2NV
I wonder if anyone makes off the shelf 2 piece rotors. I think that would look hot but it would cost alot more.
Nope.. not unless you want to spend $750+ just for the rotors. I've priced it out, and it's highly unlikely more than 1 or 2 people would be wiling to spend that much. the Z uses an internal drum for the parking brake, and the hats for that are ~$250 each... Then the rotors are another $125 each on top of that. then you'll need mounting bolts, so there goes another $25-35 .. that's $780 there, then you have to ship it. so $800 JUST for the rotors. Add another couple hundred for calipers and pads, then the parking brake assemblies and mounting brackets on top of that. $$$$$.
Jon, with ANY car, you can cause the back end to come around with enough braking while you're turning- but if you keep sending the bias to the front to reduce that, you end up compromising stopping distances- which I'm sure you'll agree are much better than stock with your front setup... and that's with ~8X% front bias. with this kit, you'll get back to the factory-designed ~72% front bias (trying to remember these numbers.. it's been a while since I've done the calculations)... your stopping distances should drop even more. you'll definitely be at the limit of the tires, not the brakes. You just have to be smart and not brake while you're going into a corner. take a few laps on a big roadcourse where you're entering turns at 100+ and you'll quickly learn the limits of braking and steering at the same time.
Total pricing right now is still up in the air. I'll post it when I get some more concrete numbers, but I'm shooting for the entire kit to come in around $1000 with calipers and rotors- which is cheaper than any front brake kit that's big enough to need the rears upgraded. But again, numbers are still not final. I have a few more ducks to chase down and when I get them all in a row I'll post final pricing.
07-27-2004, 07:55 PM
#35
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
take a few laps on a big roadcourse where you're entering turns at 100+ and you'll quickly learn the limits of braking and steering at the same time.
Now throw in quick changes in elevation. Reciepe for some good stuff.Thats why I am comfortable (mostly) with it the way it is. ANd that why I think I was able to get those numbers (at least the reduction in length).
Dont forget to get those techie pics...
07-27-2004, 08:01 PM
#36
Would having ABS or not make a difference in having this upgrade, would it make it easier or harder for the install of this also. I was just talking about this to my mechanic the other day and he said he would have to research it as to find a way that I could have a parking brake. But this is why I love the org cause everyone is always thinking of that next great thing. Ill be looking for when you will be selling these Matt cause ive always wanted a big rear brake of some sort cause the whole stock and big front brake just looks ghey to me. Thanks a lot and im probably saying this for most of the community, for attempting and making this happen
07-27-2004, 09:37 PM
#37
5th gens all come standard with ABS, and I've made the kit to fit around it. there's less than 1mm clearance around the sensor and on some of the other parts, but it does clear. very tight tolerances. this isn't as easy as fabbing up a lower tie bar or anything!
I need to test-fit a set on a 4th gen once I get some kits ready to go. I'm assuming they will fit since the rear axles are basically the same, and the rear brakes are identical.... but you never know. the rear wheel hub/bearing is different between 4th and 5th gens, so I can't make any promises-- especially since the 4th gen came with and without ABS.
I need to test-fit a set on a 4th gen once I get some kits ready to go. I'm assuming they will fit since the rear axles are basically the same, and the rear brakes are identical.... but you never know. the rear wheel hub/bearing is different between 4th and 5th gens, so I can't make any promises-- especially since the 4th gen came with and without ABS.
07-28-2004, 07:24 AM
#39
There's no difference in MY parts for abs or non-abs. I just had to build the kit to fit around the sensors and stuff inthe wheel hub. it's already done and I'm not redesigning it unless I discover a major flaw ex post facto.
