Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Did any of those bbk equipped cars have upgraded rears also?? Again, there is a big reason cars come with huge rotors now. It's not all about fade resistance or feel. You can accomplish both without huge rotors. But you don't have to believe me. Just drive someone's car that has a bbk on it.

But I fail so see what the difference inbetween "fade resistance" and "decrease fade". Seem one in the same to me?

"The big decrease in distance(over OEM) happens when going at higher speeds" Anything at 60mph and above is higher speeds to me.

MAX2000JP

Unsprung weight does improve braking, handling, etc. You could go one step further and say a Carbon ceramic braking system has even more of these advantages. I am fully aware of this....

You will not fully use 100% of the potential of YOUR brakes without a sticky tire. If you think otherwise, argue somewhere else. You cannot tell me that your braking wouldn't be improved with a r-compound that was at track temperature.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Not making sense. Any brake system would benefit. Also any brake system would be hurt by inferior tires also. It's just that with a bbk, braking is that much better in all situations.

MAX2000JP

Exactly, this was my point 15 posts ago when I said tires are the factor for decreasing stopping distance

There are a few basic facts that must always be kept in mind when discussing brake systems: Source Stoptech

1) The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. The brakes slow the rotation of the wheels and tires. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use - which, in the case of aftermarket advertising, may or may not be the ones originally fitted to the car by the OE manufacturer.

2) The brakes function by converting the kinetic energy of the car into thermal energy during deceleration - producing heat, lots of heat - which must then be transferred into the surroundings and into the air stream.

The amount of heat produced in context with a brake system needs to be considered with reference to time meaning rate of work done or power. Looking at only one side of a front brake assembly, the rate of work done by stopping a 3500-pound car traveling at 100 Mph in eight seconds is 30,600 calories/sec or 437,100 BTU/hr or is equivalent to 128 kW or 172 Hp. The disc dissipates approximately 80% of this energy. The ratio of heat transfer among the three mechanisms is dependent on the operating temperature of the system. The primary difference being the increasing contribution of radiation as the temperature of the disc rises. The contribution of the conductive mechanism is also dependent on the mass of the disc and the attachment designs, with disc used for racecars being typically lower in mass and fixed by mechanism that are restrictive to conduction. At 1000oF the ratios on a racing 2-piece annular disc design are 10% conductive, 45% convective, 45% radiation. Similarly on a high performance street one-piece design, the ratios are 25% conductive, 25% convective, 50% radiation.

3) Repeated hard stops require both effective heat transfer and adequate thermal storage capacity within the disc. The more disc surface area per unit mass and the greater and more efficient the mass flow of air over and through the disc, the faster the heat will be dissipated and the more efficient the entire system will be. At the same time, the brake discs must have enough thermal storage capacity to prevent distortion and/or cracking from thermal stress until the heat can be dissipated. This is not particularly important in a single stop but it is crucial in the case of repeated stops from high speed - whether racing, touring or towing.

4) Control and balance are at least as important as ultimate stopping power. The objective of the braking system is to utilize the tractive capacity of all of the tires to the maximum practical extent without locking a tire. In order to achieve this, the braking force between the front and rear tires must be nearly optimally proportioned even with ABS equipped vehicles. At the same time, the required pedal pressure, pedal travel and pedal firmness must allow efficient modulation by the driver.

5) Braking performance is about more than just brakes. In order for even the best braking systems to function effectively, tires, suspension and driving techniques must be optimized.

For maximum brake potential, vehicles benefit from proper corner weight balance, a lower CG, a longer wheelbase, more rear weight bias and increased aerodynamic down force at the rear

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Nice copy / paste. If you think your stock brakes are fine because you can slam the pedal down and lock them up, go ahead and keep thinking that.

It's funny that you think Nissan went to great pains to design your brakes. Considering they are nearly idenctical to the 4-gen and 3-gen systems. The only difference being the weight kept going up. And that post sums up my point regarding the 5-gen brake rotor problem nicely.

MAX2000JP

I copied and pasted to show the misinformation in your arguement and even some of mine. Carrol Smith and Stoptech are valid sources, instead of the both of us just argueing.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

If the tires are the overwhelming factor stopping the car, then why not just use really thick rotors that are just 10" in diameter?? You just admitted that large rotors help. BUT you stated those cars I mentioned are for track duty. But that also confirms my point that large rotors actually do help stopping distance. Correct? Or else you would have said, cars with large rotors (despite what car they are installed) doesn't do anything. Then you just posted a link that said "the stopping distances are improved from high speeds". That again supports my case. If it's truely the tires and not the BBK, the speed of the vehicle would not matter. Just the tires. I'm not argueing about the fade resistance or feel. As I agree with you. BBKS greatly help both.

MAX2000JP

Nissan used the same brakes for fiscal purposes. From my experience, the 5th gen rotors warp because of the pads. I changed to a different pad and have had no issues. Have you ever read Carrol Smith's article on "Why warped discs arent caused by heat"?

Mizeree_X

iTrader: (9)

I just want to re-iterate TopElement's question: Have you driven a Maxima with a BBK? I installed a 4-wheel BBK on my car and experienced a very real decrease in stopping distance, and I doubt all of it was due to the new brake fluid I added when I swapped calipers.

Zack342

iTrader: (89)

MAX2000JP let it go man....... its not worth it

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

No but I read this:

Quote:

3) Repeated hard stops require both effective heat transfer and adequate thermal storage capacity within the disc. The more disc surface area per unit mass and the greater and more efficient the mass flow of air over and through the disc, the faster the heat will be dissipated and the more efficient the entire system will be. At the same time, the brake discs must have enough thermal storage capacity to prevent distortion and/or cracking from thermal stress until the heat can be dissipated. This is not particularly important in a single stop but it is crucial in the case of repeated stops from high speed - whether racing, touring or towing.

Are stating that this is not correct? Because you just posted it.

But this is the brake setup that you say is just fine. Even though these brakes were just okay with the 3-4th gens. Add a few more hundred lbs and don't change the design at all. And look what happens. Many rotor warpage problems. If the warping was truely the pads, how come the 3-gens/4-gens aren't experiencing NEARLY the warpage rate? Did Nissan start using different pads for the 5th gen?

MAX2000JP

Ask Carrol Smith that...I am not "expert" on the subject myself. You mentioned the Vette, Porsches, BMWs. These cars are track tested on the Nurburgring and various road course. Team Corvette tested a bunch of different brake ducts to get the temperature right when testing in Germany. These cars have performance suspensions, which in conjunction with good brakes and tires, produce amazing results. Stopping distances are improved at high speeds again because of the better thermal properties of a BBK. A lot of thermal energy is created from a 80-0 or 120-60 stop. More area means better disapation of heat and more predictable stopping. Maybe I should have said, less fade equals better stopping distances.

MAX2000JP

My answer would be this: Interesting read BTW.
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Are you now saying that the previous statements you copied pasted are now incorrect?

MAX2000JP

Please read it first...theres no way u could have read all that information by now

Both articles are written by the same guy btw.

Edit:

Pads on the 4th gen and 2000-2001 pads are different. Different SKU numbers per Courtesy parts. Does this mean they share different compounds, I dont know.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

But why even have big rotors at all? According to you they do nothing. It wouldn't matter what car they are installed on.

So let's say I could magicly install the Porsche optional huge 14" brakes with the carbon fiber rotors, it would do absolutely nothing because my maxima suspension is not "optimal"??? Or it's FWD?


Actually you should not say that. A larger torque arm advantage from using a larger rotor and a caliper further away from the centerline of the rotor will apply more braking force onto the rotor. If you could elminate all fade and with all other factors being equal, the sytem with the larger rotors will stop sooner. Now add fade. The system with the larger rotors will still peform better in areas of fade resistance and stopping distance.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I only read your statements. Which contradict themselves.

This is what you need to find out.

MAX2000JP

Those statements were made by Carrol Smith, which shows your arguement to be incoherent. Again, I am no expert on braking systems. I would take Carrol Smith numerous years of racing as a valid source.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Okay I guess it's not conversation. Just a cut/paste thing. And you shouldn't just copy/paste unless you are ready to discuss what you are pasting. It's clear that you might not.

MAX2000JP

Reading compreshension ownz u....I never stated big rotors do nothing. I specifically stated they increase feel and remove energy more effectively.

MAX2000JP

I cited the source.....I also find it interesting about the contradiction seem in those 2 articles. Maybe we should email Carrol Smith for some further information?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Here's another one. You quote StopTech's site to support your theory that bbk that use large rotors don't help.

But StopTech offer just that. Kits that ultilize larger rotors/multipiston calipers.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

How exactly do they do that?? Because they are bigger? Or because they have more mass??? Let's assume the logical and say because they have more mass. Is that correct??

MAX2000JP

See you are misinterpretting me...I never never said BBKs are useless. Under extreme conditions, such as road racing they are crucial. My arguement was/is that they dont improve stopping distances as much as people think. When braking multiple times hard, they do because of the greater thermal properties they exhibit.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

just answer this

Mizeree_X

iTrader: (9)

Hey look, I can copy and paste too (from the same Stoptech article):

"A few things are now obvious:

1) Line pressure can only be increased by either increasing the mechanical pedal ratio or by decreasing the master cylinder diameter. In either case the pedal travel will be increased.

2) Clamping force can only be increased either by increasing the line pressure or by increasing the diameter of the caliper piston(s). Increasing the size of the pads will not increase clamping force. Any increase in caliper piston area alone will be accompanied by an increase in pedal travel. The effectiveness of a caliper is also affected by the stiffness of the caliper body and its mountings. It is therefore possible to reduce piston size while increasing caliper stiffness and realize a net increase in clamping force applied. This would typically improve pedal feel.

3) Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque."

Jeff's or Matt's BBK: larger rotor radius, larger caliper piston area. These increase the clamping force as well as the BRAKE TORQUE, which in turn affects stopping distance.

Now, a few caveats: Do tires make a difference? Of course they do. Even with 10-piston calipers and 15" rotors and a perfectly balanced brake bias, they wouldn't improve a thing if the tires do not provide adequate traction to keep the car in contact with the ground. HOWEVER, the stock Maxima braking system does NOT bring the tires to their traction limit (obviously this is highly dependent on the tires on the specific car, I only have experience with Maximas I have driven). However, we can reasonably assume that someone who is thinking about purchasing a BBK has also invested in tires that provide a high level of dry traction. So, you can see tangible benefits from bigger brakes without changing tires if you are still operating within the traction limit of said tires.

MAX2000JP

To put it simply....Surface area.

If you get a chance, read this also: Explains basically all we are discussing.

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...ons_122701.htm

This is why I would buy from Stoptech, they are honest.
"In order to brake effectively, the tires must comply with and grip on the road. Your braking system is no better than your tires and suspension. The best money that you can spend is on really good tires and really good shocks."

"If the braking system is only marginal, upgrading the pads and brake fluid and/or getting more air to the system will probably cure the problem at minimal cost. Replacing the stock rubber flexible hoses with stainless braid armored Teflon hoses will improve the ability to effectively modulate the braking force at moderate cost."

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Surface area? What if the rotors were 19" in diameter but only 0.5" thick? Lots of surface are right?

MAX2000JP

You are really picking at straws here. Please read the last link I provided you, it will answer that question for you.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

3) Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque.

You only mention that it's the brakes ability to handle the heat that's repsonsible for better brake distance. That IMHO is false. From all the people that have installed the 300z calipers/pads/rotors, none have reported better performance in the dist dept. This was also mentioned by Shadow and is repeatly mentioned by Miseree and your own link. Why is that? The 300z calipers and rotors both feature increased performance in piston area and thermo mass capabilities. According to you, because of these two things only, braking dist reduction should have happened. But has apparently has not. Why is that only when these same parts are coupled with a rotor that puts the caliper futher away from the centerline does the braking performance increase?

Understand that and we don't have an arguement.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

MAX2000JP...i assume you don't have a BBK? you're basically taking 3rd hand information? bench racer? drive a car w/ BBK and then draw your own conclusions instead of copy and pasting what others say.

also how realistic is R compound for street use?

MAX2000JP

That is what I said on page 1, again you arent reading my posts correctly.

MAX2000JP

No, I dont own a BBK. IMO it's a waste on a Maxima, since it will never be anything close to a competent racecar. I would buy a BBK on a track car and that's where I would run R compounds.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

hmmm ok fair enough.

well i can't speak for others but personally i'm very hard on my brakes...but on a street level. a lot of NYC stop and go and fast braking. i've experienced some fading in the past and i feel the BBK is the best upgrade for what i need it for. it stops shorter and resists fading a lot better. that shorten distance saved me a few times when i have those dum dum cabs cut me off and slam on the brakes.

MrGone

iTrader: (30)

Donkeys BBK saved him from hitting a deer shortly after he installed his.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

You aren't addressing my questions but who cares now? If you agree that using larger rotors benefit stopping dist and that is partially accomplished by the increased torque arm, then we don't have a problem. Because you have then agreed to all points.

Zack342

iTrader: (89)

MAX2000JP give up man i feel so bad for you. between Jeff and his Minions your going to keep getting owned even though you have had some valid points.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Why don't you either stay out of it or state your points. I asked NO ONE to stand up for me. If I was wrong, they would have said so.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

you want some of this too punk?

Zack342

iTrader: (89)

No, I have had my share but I am gaining an extensive Knowledge of braking and brake components. This is a great thread. Also who are you calling a punk? What is your definition of Punk based on?