If my fact is correct, Nissan was the first to introduce a high output 3.5L V6 in the US market that really create a major impact in performance (I think Isuzu Trooper & Chrysler M300 have their version of the 3.5L V6 in the US market prior but they were not as popular). Now suddenly other car manufactures start doing it too: Toyota, Honda/Acura, Chrysler, Cadillac, Mercedes, GM, and even Hyundai/Kia, etc... all have their own versions.

Is 3.5L V6 engine package a compromise for power/smoothness? Has Nissan started a trend w/this engine configuration? Is Nissan 3.5L V6 engine still the best interm of technological advance compare the like of Acura or Mercedes?
I wonder what is the maximum engine output (N/A) for this configuration in production form? 350-400hp?

 

The power that Nissan is getting from their 3.5 V6 is just "okay". Acura is putting a 300hp V6 into the next RL. And Acura was getting 275hp from their NSX v6 a long time ago.

BMW was getting 300hp from their smaller displacement 3.2 I-6 long ago also.

 

i am pretty sure the NSX is only a 3.2 and it was 290hp. Also you can say that the nissan 3.5 VQ is good for about 300hp since the next 2005 Z track edition will have 300hp.

 

And let's not forget torque. What other N/A V6 can give you 280+ pounds of torque in stock form? Not much in the price range.

 

The original NSX is a 3.0L 260hp V6's. They later upgraded to 3.2L w/290hp.
The new 3.5RL is rated @ 300hp w/single overhead cam (SOHC) vs. Nissan dual overhead cam (DOHC) setup.

Speaking of 3.5L V6 only, currently Acura/Nissan are at similar engine power output. I am anxious to see what AMG from Mercedes will do to improve the current 268hp SLK coupe?

 

i hear that the slk/c- class amg cars are going to be v8's. i got this info from 2 people who work with merc.
and who put the acura in the same class as a mercedes?

 

SLK55 and the C55, 362-hp handcrafted AMG V-8

0-60 in 4.9* sec for both (*MB Catalog) - I think the numbers are VERY conservative. The SLK55 should be in the low 4s

 

Why the increase in displacement? More power. 3.5 is not some magical displacement. The main reason is Nissan is better at making 6 cylinder engines and the other manufacturers are jelious.

Honda has always had really high peak numbers. That is what VTEC does. That does not mean that it is a better engine. Compare area under the curve. Honda looses in that hands down.

Who would pay 90 grand for a Honda V6 with less than 300hp anyway? You could get a G35 or 350Z for 1/3 of that. I would get a R34 Skyline GT-R for a much better import supercar IMO. Or I could almost get a Lingenfelter TT Corvette with 725 hp that runs ~9.5s @ 145mph in the 1/4 for all out speed.

 

I'm sure the current 3.5 VQ engine can wring out more than 300 hp. I guess they haven't tapped the full potential. Probably just going through rigorious testing to see what limit can the VQ can withstand without blowing a motor. Take the 5.6 V-8, I don't remember seeing one in that displacement til the Titan showed up. The biggest I remember around that time was the 4.5 V-8 which was found on the Infiniti.

 

isnt 350z in japan have 350HP??

 

no

also i dont think people who buy NSXs really want a ho-hum sports coupe that everybody and their brother have (ie 350/g35 ) also it is possibly the most agile sports car on the market

 

No and double no. In Japan there is an unofficial rule that no car can have abover 280bhp. While most of the high performance cars exceed this amount, the highest rated car is raed at 280bhp

 

The Skyline GT and Fairlady Z in Japan have the VQ30DD with I think about 260hp.

 

Honda is having to push the crap out of their 3.2-3.5L SOHC V6 engines to get them to make the power that they are. They cranked the TL's 3.2L all the way up to 11.0:1 compression and shifted the powerband even higher just to get it up to 270hp. As a result, people are complaining once again about the lack of low-end torque. The previous 3.2L (260hp) had a more balanced powerband with plenty of low-end. Peak torque was at like 3200rpm vs 5000rpm now. Same old Honda trick. With the RL engine it's also running 11.0:1 compression and has a similar high-end biased powerband to get 300hp. Peak torque is at 5000 rpm and low-end will probably once again be lacking, along with street performance. The SOHC heads limit ultimate revving capability (they're pushing the limits at 6800 rpm redlines) and it also doesn't allow them to use variable phase valve timing as effectively as a DOHC. They're still using the traditional two-step VTEC system. Anyways, heavy AWD automatic cars need power in the lower 2/3rd of the rev range where people will actually be driving most of the time, not in the top 1/3rd of the rev range where you'll hardly ever be. I can't wait to race a 300hp RL in my 190hp stock 5spd. I don't think I'll win, but they won't be pulling away from me either.

As for the VQ, there's still plenty of potential. They're still only running a 10.3:1 compression ratio, DOHC heads can rev extremely high (much higher than 6600rpm). The only reason Nissan has kept the limit low is because with low rev limits you can use lighter valve springs which mean lower frictional losses and higher overall engine efficiency. If they wanted to, Nissan could easily make a 7000 or 7500rpm VQ engine. About a year ago I made comments to that effect and now we're seeing the 7000 rpm versions with more top-end in the G35c 6spd and the AE 350z with about 300hp. They're still not using dual VVT on both intake and exhaust. Right now it's just intake only. And they're still not using a variable lift VVT setup. They could make a Neo-VVL version of the VQ if they wanted to. With that, a VQ35 could easily make 320-330hp. They could also add direct injection and crank it up to 12-13:1 compression and still be pump gas friendly. But Honda isn't using direct injection yet either.

Due to internal geometry, the VQ35 is also setup for better top-end power inherently than Honda's J35. Honda's J-series V6 only has a narrow 98 mm bore spacing, so to get to 3.5L it's an undersquare setup. The VQ uses a 108 mm bore spacing and is still oversquare at 3.5L. The larger bore spacing lets you have wider cylinders with larger valve area and lower piston speeds (lower friction and vibration), all of which is favorable to top-end. The result is that the VQ35 can make the same 300hp as Honda can but without variable lift VVT, without a very high 11.0:1 compression, and without a crappy low-end response.

In summary, VQ > *

 

^^good technical info, SteVtec!
Any info on the Mercedes-Benz DOHC 3.5L V6 engine? They are making good torque number: 258 lb/ft @ a low 2400 rmp & 268 hp @ 6000 rmp from a 10.7:1 compression ratio.

**EDIT** I see that you are a member @ http://www.v6performance.net/forums/index.php?

 

Merc is well known to under-rate their engines, so unfortunately there's no way to know how accurate those numbers are without seeing a dyno or some track results. But at face value, Nissan is still getting more torque per liter out of their VQ35 than Benz is out of their 3.5L. Nissan is also getting more torque per liter than the Honda J35, and the Toyota 2GR-FE coming in the '06 Avalon.

 

How about the new Avalon engine?

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/deal...valon/index.htm

Pics can be found:
http://carspyshots.proboards2.com/i...&num=1101078268

Most important info:
-----------------------
II. All-New high-output 3.5L V6 engine

A. 2GR-FE DOHC 4-valve V6

1. first application of this all-new engine in any Toyota

2. 280 Hp @ 6,200 rpm

3. 260 ft/lbs @ 4,700 rpm

4. aluminum block & heads

a. short-stroke, high-rev design

b. bore X stroke = 3. 70" X 3.27" (94 X 83 mm)

c. short-stroke variant of 1GR-FE 4.0L V6 from 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra
ref: 1GR-FE = 3. 70" X 3.74" (94 X 95 mm)

5. New 4-valve engine specifically developed for this high-performance sedan

a. very low reciprocating-mass design

1) lower overall powerplant mass

2) improved operating efficiency

3) controls noise, vibration, and harshness

b. newest all-solid state Electronically-Controlled Throttle System w/ intelligence (ETCS-i)

B. New low-friction cylinder head

1. Dual VVT-i

a. variable valve timing w/ intelligence on both intake and exhaust cams, relative to crank angle

b. ECM can independently control timing and overlap to optimize power, emissions, and efficiency

2. roller-follower rocker arms

a. very low friction compared to direct ‘bucket’ lifters

1) major reduction in high-rpm friction caused by oil shear between cam lobe and lifter

b. permits unique ‘concave’ cam profile

1) faster valve opening & longer duration than conventional cam grind for bucket lifters

2) increases volumetric efficiency for more output

3) hydraulic lash adjustment reduces maintenance

285mo02
C. Performance enhancements

1. new cooling fan control

a. all solid-state fan speed control

b. best match of fan performance to fan noise

1) conventional 2-stage fan control is based on minimum req’d fan speed for each temperature threshold

2) linear fan speed control results in fan speeds that are always lower at any temp other than threshold

2. dual rear mufflers ensure engine performance without increased engine noise

3. intake manifold

a. dual-stage manifold length tuning improves torque and power

1) Toyota-1st electric actuator reduces complexity and mass over previous solenoid & vacuum actuator

2) new laser-welded fiber-reinforced plastic molding

b. two-stage air cleaner chamber

1) reduces air intake noise at low- to-mid-throttle openings

4. Overall efficiency:

a. City: 22 mpg

b. Hiway: 30 mpg

c. Combined: TBD

 

Toyota's GR series engine is new, first introduced in the US in the 03 4Runner (1GR, 4.0L). I have detailed documentation describing the previous MZ-series V6 (Camry, RX300, etc) so I'm not sure what exactly the differences are. The 1MZ-FE 3.0L and the 3GR-FSE (3.0L direct injection V6 used in the JDM Crown, not mentioned in the Avalon press release) both have the same exact internal geometry (bore x stroke), so I'm not sure if Toyota is retiring the MZ and going with the GR for future cars, or if they're going to keep running both lines.

At face value though, the 2GR-FE looks like a good competitor to the VQ35 and Honda J35. I like the dual VVT-i, although 260 lb-ft still isn't matching the VQ35. But the 30 mpg hwy rating (preliminary obviously) is very impressive which bests the VQ35 which gets around 28 mpg. Unfortunately they didn't mention the compression ratio or injection type. It's probably still port injected. In Toyota terminology, 2GR-FE: the 2 means the 2nd engine of the GR family. F means an economy oriented head type (G is performance) and E means electronic fuel injection. (SE means direct injection). So a direct injected Toyota 3.5L of the GR family would be a 2GR-FSE.

 

^^^ but arent we comparing a DOHC VQ35 vs the "S"OHC 300hp 3.5 RL engine?

lets say in theory, they made a DOHC 3.5 engine for honda, do you think it would surpass Nissan's VQ35 "D"OHC with their usual inflated hp flywheel figures?

generally speaking, Toyota under rates power... along with benz/bmw/porsche etc....

and BTW, C&D tested the RL, and got 15.2, lol..... slower than the TL... so your 99 maxima 5spd can match it, and perhaps would die out on the HWY only....
it doesnt make sense to give it such low torque with high peaks on a heavy AWD luxury cruiser....

 

I thought we were just comparing 3.5L engines in general.

I'd have to disagree with pretty much everything here. Nissan doesn't inflate horsepower numbers as a rule. They did that once on the 02-03 Maxima, but people conveniently forget that the engine was really putting out about 265 lb-ft of torque, not 246 lb-ft as rated. Then there's the G35 sedan (rated 260hp) which dynoed as high as the 280hp coupe with the dyno numbers suggesting it's really 275-280hp, not the 260. So that was underrated. People seem to say that the QR25DE is overrated, because they compare it to the SR20DE without taking into account that the old SE-R had tiny little 14" rims vs the big whopper 17" ones on the SE-R Spec-V which adds a ton of inertial resistance on the dyno. Then we have the "265hp/255tq" Maxima. Despite a 3500 lb curb weight and whopper 55lb per corner 18" rims, that **** will still haul mid-14 1/4 mile times with the automatic. My calculations suggest it has the same 280hp/270tq as the version of the VQ35DE in the G35 coupe. Hell, maybe it is pretty much the same version.

As for Toyota, the dynos I've seen for them don't suggest any sort of underrating. That includes the Celica GT-S, the IS300, and the GS400. I do have one stock Camry dyno that suggests underrating, but it's only one dyno, and it had a very high SAE correction. The higher the SAE correction, the less accurate it becomes. It may have over-corrected. Since I haven't seen another Camry dyno I don't have anything to compare with, and then have no idea if it was just a fluke or legit. If you have some stock Toyota dynos that show under-rating, I'd love to take a look at them.

For BMW and Merc I agree, although I haven't seen any Porsche dynos. With BMW the 225hp 330i consistently dynos at about 200 rwhp which is about 235-240 at the crank. Although BMW seems to pay a lot more attention to inertial parasitics in the drivetrain. Whether the engine actually has 235-240 hp for real, or whether it's just very low inertial parasitics causing to dyno better than normal is unknown. Either way, the cars perform better than your typical 225hp, so I guess you can say that it's under-rated.


that's about what I calculated, which is why I can't wait to run one. The Acura dude will be wondering where the hell all of his 300hp went and why the heck he can't beat a crusty old 190hp Nissan.

 

STEVTEC I got to handed to you, you sound like you know your ****. I got to respect that, good work........

for a minute I thought our 3.5 engine was falling behind but guess not according to all this info........... this made my day.........go nissan!!!!!...........

 

2jzgte

 

Ye STEVTEC you do know your stuff im just wondering why cant VQ'S have both good low end and high end torque low end is already accomplished but after 5500 rpm's vq dies, on the high way the max isint all that great but i gotta give it to nissan there low end is amazing!

 

change your intake manifold

 

yea, I was about to mention the sentra engine QR25, but you beat me to it, lol
I don't know about VQ40, but the "VQ45 in the infiniti M45/Q45 seem over rated IMO."
They rate it at 340hp, yet still only manage mid 14s for the M45 and high 14s for the Q45?

A bimmer 540 has much less RATED HP, as well as a GS400, and they both run mid low 14s all day long....kinda off topic of the VQ35's, but still VQ series

What we're the dyno numbers that you've got, for the GS400?
and how much % loss are you using? 15 17 20%???

 

Now if only Nissan had kept the 29xx-pound A32 chassis with a VQ35 engine and perhaps a VQ40 block under those 35 heads/IM We would all be spanking LS1 Camaros and Cobras stock

 

the new 325hp 545 does 13.6 13.7 in the 1/4 mind you

Q45 and M45 arent near those E.Ts with "340hp"

 

Wow, that's pretty good technical info. I'm good with engines and stuff but not something down to the wire as every 3.5 in the market cuz I am just a non-vice gear head.

 

The M45 and Q45 use the VK45DE which is in the same engine series as the VK56DE the titan comes with. The biggest VQ Nissan makes is the VQ40 in the new Pathfinder, Xterra, and Frontier. There is no VQ45. There is a stroker kit for the VQ35 which will bring it to about 4.2-4.3L, but that is stroked and bored a lot.

I know the gearing in the old Q45s were really tall and were designed for the market of those cars. Who buys these type of cars? Older people who want a huge car with a V8 but still want good gas mileage and doesn't really need to be that fast. It doesn't make sense to me either but that is what Cadillac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Lincoln, etc. have been doing for years. So I would assume the new ones were not geared for drag racing.

BMWs have more of a sport luxury image than most of these huge luxury cars. They can get away with shorter gearing and sportier suspension. The 525 also has an option for a 6 speed manual or 6 speed auto while the M/Q45 have 5 speed auto only.

The Q45 also weighs close to 4000lbs. The M45 weighs about 3800. Those are some pretty heavy cars. The 525 at about 3800lbs isn't too much lighter but it is lighter.

I would love to see you spank a LS1 camaro much less a cobra with some kind of hybrid VQ without some other serious mods. You do realize that the new cobras run in the high 12s. That is where some of the fastest FI Maximas are....

 

let me put my say into this.

Acura is just plain stupid. The New Acura RL has 300 horses with a v6 when all the cars in that catagorie that the RL performs in have v8 so that is why Acura cant even keep up with those cars. And the engine that was in the NSX, the 3.2, is in every other Honda/Acura like the legend sedan and coupe so that is outdated already too.

And I think that every other manufacturers are just trying to produce a engine like the vq series engine. Nissan knows what they are doing.

 

Your overrating the ls1, its not as fast as everyone thinks it, high 13's is the best I think that thing can run bone stock, Im almost certain a HiBrid Vq in a A32 body will run mid 13's to low 13's, and thats without any bolt ons

 

I heard on another forum that 310hp or so was the maximum, due to emissions, etc. Race versions of the VQ35DE produce 450hp. Like SteVTEC said, revising to the VVT system and valvetrain, bumping up the compression, etc would bring power up quite a bit, all while meeting emissions regulations.

According to Nissanhelp.com, even the VQ40 with an additional .5L of stroke over the VQ35, is still oversquare! It's only by a small amount(~1mm), but it's amazing how oversquare the VQ was to begin with.

Actually, the DOHC C30 and C32 V6s were used exclusively in the NSX. The RL, TL, MDX, and the now defunct CL used the SOHC J30, J32, and J35.

 

LS1's are under rated with their 320hp claim, its more like 335 340hp, just that they didn't want to outclass the C5 350hp vette.

the auto camaro SS can easily hit 13.6-13.8 AUTO

manual are mid low 13s on average, with the acception of a high 12sec one, once in awhile

 

Ok I have no problem admitting that with some kind of Hydrid VQ in an A32 you could beat a LS1 Camaro. But it would not "spank" it by any means with just the engine swap and everything else stock. Granted that is unlikely but LS1s also respond pretty well to mods so we are comparing apples to oranges again. I just find it funny to throw out those cars for no real reason.

In my opinion the NSX is nothing really special enough for the price.

Anyway

 

You're correct, except that the last-gen RL still used a SOHC C35 engine without VTEC. I was always mildly amused that Honda was using a non-VTEC engine in their flagship car for so long. It did have a nifty 3-stage variable intake manifold though, and peak torque at only 2800rpm IIRC. They've rectified that little issue now with the new RL though.

 

i do believe nissan makes one of the best V6's next to porshe,mercedes,and some other german companies,i dont see toyota or hondas engines "V6's" making and performing as good in so many cars and configurations as the VQ

 

What V6 did Porsche make?

 

and you cant compare a low 13 second car like a Camaro SS or Firebird WS6 to any type of Nissan with a V6... LS1's put out about 340hp, and as big as they are they weigh just about the same as a 4th gen...

If you want that type of power to weight ratio your better off comparing a high output M45 or Q45 to an M5

 

oops sorry i meant 6 cylinder engines