4th to 5th Gen Intake Manifold Swap Information
01-26-2004, 06:24 PM
#121
Originally Posted by Anachronism
Assuming the 5th gen intake manifold will raise the 4th gen HP close to 5th gen levels it is obvious it is far superior. At 5500 RPM the 5th gen IM is giving a 20 HP benefit while the MEVI is showing a 0 HP improvement. Due to the low end loss with the MEVI there is little if any increase in average HP. In my opinion the MEVI is only worth it for those who can get the JWT ECU (with extended redline) or automatics that benefit because of their wider spaced gears.
The 5th gen intake manifold can probably be gotten from a junkyard fairly reasonably or at least bought from a dealer without dealing with importing them.
Obviously there are some major hurdles to overcome to install a 5th gen IM on a 4th Gen and it may never be cost effective. Still looking at the potential gains of this I am surprised nobody has at least made an attempt at the swap. There is a guy who put a 3.5 in a 2k Max and even someone who stuffed a Maxima V6 into a previous generation Altima, yet no one has attempted this
The 5th gen intake manifold can probably be gotten from a junkyard fairly reasonably or at least bought from a dealer without dealing with importing them.
Obviously there are some major hurdles to overcome to install a 5th gen IM on a 4th Gen and it may never be cost effective. Still looking at the potential gains of this I am surprised nobody has at least made an attempt at the swap. There is a guy who put a 3.5 in a 2k Max and even someone who stuffed a Maxima V6 into a previous generation Altima, yet no one has attempted this
Where did you get "At 5500 RPM the 5th gen IM is giving a 20 HP benefit while the MEVI is showing a 0 HP improvement. Due to the low end loss with the MEVI there is little if any increase in average HP" from?
And what about the TQ loss in the 5th gen?
Dig around, there are other threads about it, not just this one.
$ for $ the MEVI will beat the 5th gen intake manifold hands down
My 2 cents
01-26-2004, 06:34 PM
#122
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,430
Originally Posted by Big D
Well actually yes I did. You however obviously didn't and just dug deep to find it, 2 days after I made my post.
Peace
Eric
01-26-2004, 07:08 PM
#123
Originally Posted by bags533
Where did you get "At 5500 RPM the 5th gen IM is giving a 20 HP benefit while the MEVI is showing a 0 HP improvement. Due to the low end loss with the MEVI there is little if any increase in average HP" from?
And what about the TQ loss in the 5th gen?
Dig around, there are other threads about it, not just this one.
$ for $ the MEVI will beat the 5th gen intake manifold hands down
My 2 cents
And what about the TQ loss in the 5th gen?
Dig around, there are other threads about it, not just this one.
$ for $ the MEVI will beat the 5th gen intake manifold hands down
My 2 cents
01-26-2004, 10:59 PM
#124
Originally Posted by EZEMaxima
Sorry you are wrong there, I was busy working on my recently acquired MEVI. If you check my posting on the 4th gen forum and on my website. And like i said on my first post on this subject, it's just my .02 cents. Why are you getting all upset for? If you want to go ahead then install a 5th gen runner on your car then go ahead. You could be right about better power curve, but for me it doesn't matter now. I already acquired a MEVI to put in my car.
Peace
Eric
Peace
Eric
01-27-2004, 08:25 AM
#126
Bags...might want to read this:
https://maxima.org/shoptalk/sub_read...ns/index.shtml
...UNLESS you're referring to <2000rpm.
https://maxima.org/shoptalk/sub_read...ns/index.shtml
...UNLESS you're referring to <2000rpm.
01-27-2004, 10:44 AM
#127
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,362
Originally Posted by bags533
Where did you get "At 5500 RPM the 5th gen IM is giving a 20 HP benefit while the MEVI is showing a 0 HP improvement. Due to the low end loss with the MEVI there is little if any increase in average HP" from?
And what about the TQ loss in the 5th gen?
Dig around, there are other threads about it, not just this one.
$ for $ the MEVI will beat the 5th gen intake manifold hands down
My 2 cents
And what about the TQ loss in the 5th gen?
Dig around, there are other threads about it, not just this one.
$ for $ the MEVI will beat the 5th gen intake manifold hands down
My 2 cents
Calculations by Nealoc and SteVTEC show little average horsepower gain with the MEVI.
I have read most of the threads on this subject.
If the 5th gen IM will raise the 4th gen to 5th gen power levels and if can be done for a reasonable cost (two big Ifs, I know) then it is (IMO) far superor to the MEVI.
My 2/100 of a buck
This is a very long thread and I don't want to repost the same information twice. Check my posts #76,78, and 80 in this thread for more info and dynos that show how I came to these conclusions.
01-27-2004, 11:01 AM
#129
Licensed to Spell
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Murrieta (southern California)
Posts: 4,521
:o)
Sorry if this was asked, I just didn't have time to read 5 pages. I did read the 1st page though. I am interested. I am just confused about one thing. What would be the benefit to using the 2000-2002 VI over of the Middle East/Japanese VI?
01-27-2004, 11:33 AM
#130
If you're going to do the IM, just do the entire engine to get the true gains of the 5th gen 3.0 over the 4th gen. We do not know, or at least I don't for sure, if the IM is soley responsible for the gains. But 4th gens are lighter so you would benefit even more because you have to drive around w/o a hood, because the engine wont clear the hood to close it, and I think I recall some issues with firewall spacing too. And also, being a MEVI owner, I can tell pretty well when my VI opens/closes, and I was riding with my friend in a 5th gen, and it sounds like theirs open at different RPM's in relation to the gear they're in(auto). In 1st, it seemed to open at 6.2k, and in 2nd, around 5.5-5.6k, what it sounded like, I'm no resonance sound expert either.
01-27-2004, 11:39 AM
#131
As far as I understand:
MEVI is a plenum intake with runners that are "resonance tuned" to change from a longer to shorter path at higher rpm. This is a compromise at lower RPM for torque and only 'holds' hp into to the upper RPM range, which can't really be taken advantage of with the stock 6400rpm limiter.
VIAS is a TWO different length runner non-plenum intake that has a "power-valve" that switches between the two runners around 5K rpm. This setup increases torque below 5K and causes the hp to keep climbing from 5K to the stock 6400rpm limiter.
Basically, past 5K, the MEVI only HOLDS hp, while the VIAS actually GAINS hp. Put the VIAS, 7000+rpm JWT ECU, and a set of cams on a lighter 4th gen....
. 
MEVI is a plenum intake with runners that are "resonance tuned" to change from a longer to shorter path at higher rpm. This is a compromise at lower RPM for torque and only 'holds' hp into to the upper RPM range, which can't really be taken advantage of with the stock 6400rpm limiter.
VIAS is a TWO different length runner non-plenum intake that has a "power-valve" that switches between the two runners around 5K rpm. This setup increases torque below 5K and causes the hp to keep climbing from 5K to the stock 6400rpm limiter.
Basically, past 5K, the MEVI only HOLDS hp, while the VIAS actually GAINS hp. Put the VIAS, 7000+rpm JWT ECU, and a set of cams on a lighter 4th gen....
.
Originally Posted by ptatohed
Sorry if this was asked, I just didn't have time to read 5 pages. I did read the 1st page though. I am interested. I am just confused about one thing. What would be the benefit to using the 2000-2002 VI over of the Middle East/Japanese VI?
01-27-2004, 01:53 PM
#135
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
You figure out IF the -K manifold will fit and the rest shouldn't be a big deal.
01-27-2004, 01:59 PM
#137
No...no...no.
The manifold just needs vacuum and a RPM switch of some sort.
The REAL problem is what you need to make the -K manifold fit/work, ie upper, lower manifolds, and whether the 4th gen. injectors/fuel rail or anything else in the way of the -K manifold.
The manifold just needs vacuum and a RPM switch of some sort.
The REAL problem is what you need to make the -K manifold fit/work, ie upper, lower manifolds, and whether the 4th gen. injectors/fuel rail or anything else in the way of the -K manifold.
Originally Posted by Big D
So the only REAL major problem would be to get the 4th gen ECU to work with the -K. Or would we just need the 5th gen ECU if we got the whole engine anyway?
01-27-2004, 02:01 PM
#138
That's only a problem for DP nitrous, but I *think* I've seen them tapped before. It's an advantage by keeping heat transfer to a minimum.
Originally Posted by spanishrice
The only thing I do not like is that the manifold is plastic.
01-27-2004, 05:09 PM
#139
Originally Posted by krismax
I cant agree on the money thing, this will cost less than $500 for me to do this.About $300-400. Once i figure this out 2000 and and JW cams go in.
Do it for ~$500 and I will be impressed.
01-27-2004, 05:11 PM
#140
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Bags...might want to read this:
...UNLESS you're referring to <2000rpm.
...UNLESS you're referring to <2000rpm.
was NOT referring to STOCK dyno's.. I'll see if I can find what I was "thinking about" when I posted
01-27-2004, 05:17 PM
#141
Originally Posted by Anachronism
Based on the dyno comaprisons put together by SteVTEC and Max_Gators dyno showing his 5th gen with and without the VI working.
Calculations by Nealoc and SteVTEC show little average horsepower gain with the MEVI.
I have read most of the threads on this subject.
If the 5th gen IM will raise the 4th gen to 5th gen power levels and if can be done for a reasonable cost (two big Ifs, I know) then it is (IMO) far superor to the MEVI.
My 2/100 of a buck
This is a very long thread and I don't want to repost the same information twice. Check my posts #76,78, and 80 in this thread for more info and dynos that show how I came to these conclusions.
Calculations by Nealoc and SteVTEC show little average horsepower gain with the MEVI.
I have read most of the threads on this subject.
If the 5th gen IM will raise the 4th gen to 5th gen power levels and if can be done for a reasonable cost (two big Ifs, I know) then it is (IMO) far superor to the MEVI.
My 2/100 of a buck
This is a very long thread and I don't want to repost the same information twice. Check my posts #76,78, and 80 in this thread for more info and dynos that show how I came to these conclusions.
and look at post like #61 it's from me..lol
While I do agree that the DUAL inatkes is better than the MEVI, I just don't see the improvements being that great VS a MEVI. As always I could be wrong.
NOW stock 4th gen VS stock 5th gen, I agree the 5th gen is better.
01-28-2004, 09:57 AM
#143
It only gets UGLIER. Top end with the -K, ypipe, and intake *PULLS* to redline. NO NA 4th gen dyno, stock or modded I've seen except IronLungs' cam w/MEVI dyno comes close.I'm pretty sure this mod will require the lower manifold swap inorder to clear the hood, but that probably means you'd have to change the injectors/rail which DEFINITELY won't be <$500 even IF possible.
Originally Posted by bags533
NOW stock 4th gen VS stock 5th gen, I agree the 5th gen is better.
01-28-2004, 10:20 AM
#144
Well just from pricing this out in the past.........I found several places online that will offer both the upper and lower intake manifold for 250.......some were even lower. Then though you have to think about the other things mentioned above, injector interferance, coil packs not being long enough.
You'll also need different throttle and cruise control cables. I can see this being a day project to get working assuming it fits.......
Krismax I'm with you on doing this.....perhaps we can share knowledge as time goes on. I'm going to order the upper intake manifold to start...I need to check out my lower injectors anways.and while the stocker is off I'm going to see how the 5th gen would fit
As an edit-
I just checked car-parts.com and several places are selling both the upper and lower intake manifold for 200 bucks. One of the guys that was selling the lower was selling.......the lower manifold including injectors and fuel rail for 150.00.
You'll also need different throttle and cruise control cables. I can see this being a day project to get working assuming it fits.......
Krismax I'm with you on doing this.....perhaps we can share knowledge as time goes on. I'm going to order the upper intake manifold to start...I need to check out my lower injectors anways.and while the stocker is off I'm going to see how the 5th gen would fit
As an edit-
I just checked car-parts.com and several places are selling both the upper and lower intake manifold for 200 bucks. One of the guys that was selling the lower was selling.......the lower manifold including injectors and fuel rail for 150.00.
01-28-2004, 11:48 AM
#145
Originally Posted by infinitiblast
Well just from pricing this out in the past.........I found several places online that will offer both the upper and lower intake manifold for 250.......some were even lower. Then though you have to think about the other things mentioned above, injector interferance, coil packs not being long enough.
You'll also need different throttle and cruise control cables. I can see this being a day project to get working assuming it fits.......
Krismax I'm with you on doing this.....perhaps we can share knowledge as time goes on. I'm going to order the upper intake manifold to start...I need to check out my lower injectors anways.and while the stocker is off I'm going to see how the 5th gen would fit
As an edit-
I just checked car-parts.com and several places are selling both the upper and lower intake manifold for 200 bucks. One of the guys that was selling the lower was selling.......the lower manifold including injectors and fuel rail for 150.00.
You'll also need different throttle and cruise control cables. I can see this being a day project to get working assuming it fits.......
Krismax I'm with you on doing this.....perhaps we can share knowledge as time goes on. I'm going to order the upper intake manifold to start...I need to check out my lower injectors anways.and while the stocker is off I'm going to see how the 5th gen would fit
As an edit-
I just checked car-parts.com and several places are selling both the upper and lower intake manifold for 200 bucks. One of the guys that was selling the lower was selling.......the lower manifold including injectors and fuel rail for 150.00.
01-28-2004, 11:53 AM
#146
00-01 use saturation type injectors vs. 95-99s use peak-and-hold type injectors.
You can't run 00-01 injectors with your ECU...are you going stand-alone?
You can't run 00-01 injectors with your ECU...are you going stand-alone?
Originally Posted by krismax
Yes i will update you ,make sure you do the same . PM me whenever. Sorry if i just bought your stuff but listen to this guys. I just got upper,lower with fuel rails and injectors for $265 shipped The great thing is I'll probably spend another $75-125 to complete. And at that point I'am cheaper and better than MEVI
01-28-2004, 12:04 PM
#147
Actually, I take that back, according to Russ Collins of RC Engineering, saturation injectors *CAN* be used in peak-and-hold systems, but not the other way around.
http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonict...rs/RCtech.html
http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonict...rs/RCtech.html
01-28-2004, 12:18 PM
#148
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Actually, I take that back, according to Russ Collins of RC Engineering, saturation injectors *CAN* be used in peak-and-hold systems, but not the other way around.
http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonict...rs/RCtech.html
http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonict...rs/RCtech.html
I wonder if the connectors are the same.
01-28-2004, 12:40 PM
#149
I think we wont have any issues keeping out 4th gen fuel rail and injectors, on my intial measurements all is good. BUt an actual test fit will be needed to confirm this.
Nah you didnt get my stuff.......there is always new stuff on that site.
BUt an actual test fit will be needed to confirm this.Nah you didnt get my stuff.......there is always new stuff on that site.
01-28-2004, 01:17 PM
#150
Hell, there's an entire engine on EBay right now for $400 BuyItNow. There's every part you'd need.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=33615
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=33615
01-28-2004, 06:36 PM
#151
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,430
Originally Posted by Big D
All I was saying is that you don't know what you were talking about.
Originally Posted by Big D
So the only REAL major problem would be to get the 4th gen ECU to work with the -K. Or would we just need the 5th gen ECU if we got the whole engine anyway?
are you psychic?????
Eric
01-28-2004, 06:38 PM
#152
Originally Posted by BSwithTF
Hell, there's an entire engine on EBay right now for $400 BuyItNow. There's every part you'd need.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=33615
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=33615
01-29-2004, 12:56 PM
#153
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
No...no...no.
The manifold just needs vacuum and a RPM switch of some sort.
The REAL problem is what you need to make the -K manifold fit/work, ie upper, lower manifolds, and whether the 4th gen. injectors/fuel rail or anything else in the way of the -K manifold.
The manifold just needs vacuum and a RPM switch of some sort.
The REAL problem is what you need to make the -K manifold fit/work, ie upper, lower manifolds, and whether the 4th gen. injectors/fuel rail or anything else in the way of the -K manifold.
I can i ask you this , what are the butterflys in the lower manifold in the 2000 for? can i just remove this stuff? thanks
01-29-2004, 01:04 PM
#154
Originally Posted by krismax
Well my first big snag is you CANT use the 4 th gen lower manifold. My only choice is to use the 2000 lower but the problem is my 96 connectors dont quite hook up, If the fuel injector resistance (my 96 10-14 ohms) was the same for mine and the 2000 and same cc's couldnt i just have the 2000 connectors wired on ?
I can i ask you this , what are the butterflys in the lower manifold in the 2000 for? can i just remove this stuff? thanks
I can i ask you this , what are the butterflys in the lower manifold in the 2000 for? can i just remove this stuff? thanks
It restricts the entire intake path at low RPMs (<3600RPM) when engine coolant temp is below 120F I think... for emissions purposes (adds "swirl" to the intake air)
01-29-2004, 01:09 PM
#155
Interesting...-K injectors are 13.5-17.5 ohm per the ESM.
The 00-01 injectors are 290-295cc vs. the 4th gen. 260cc, so that's not a problem. If it is during startup/warmup, you'll just need an adjustable FPR to turn down the base fuel pressure a few psi, however I doubt that's necessary. Just splice on the 00-01 connector.
[edit]
I think sprillis explanation on the butterflys is better.
[/edit]
The 00-01 injectors are 290-295cc vs. the 4th gen. 260cc, so that's not a problem. If it is during startup/warmup, you'll just need an adjustable FPR to turn down the base fuel pressure a few psi, however I doubt that's necessary. Just splice on the 00-01 connector.
[edit]
I think sprillis explanation on the butterflys is better.
[/edit]
Originally Posted by krismax
Well my first big snag is you CANT use the 4 th gen lower manifold. My only choice is to use the 2000 lower but the problem is my 96 connectors dont quite hook up, If the fuel injector resistance (my 96 10-14 ohms) was the same for mine and the 2000 and same cc's couldnt i just have the 2000 connectors wired on ?
I can i ask you this , what are the butterflys in the lower manifold in the 2000 for? can i just remove this stuff? thanks
I can i ask you this , what are the butterflys in the lower manifold in the 2000 for? can i just remove this stuff? thanks
01-29-2004, 01:13 PM
#156
Originally Posted by spirilis
The butterflys in the lower 2000 manifold are probably the Swirl Control Valve for cali-spec models. It's only an emissions thing, and can be disabled (butterflys left wide open).
It restricts the entire intake path at low RPMs (<3600RPM) when engine coolant temp is below 120F I think... for emissions purposes (adds "swirl" to the intake air)
It restricts the entire intake path at low RPMs (<3600RPM) when engine coolant temp is below 120F I think... for emissions purposes (adds "swirl" to the intake air)
Another ? i have is one the front of the 2000 IM by the TB there is four screw holes with a plastic thing that turns what is supose to be on there?
01-29-2004, 01:18 PM
#157
Originally Posted by spirilis
The butterflys in the lower 2000 manifold are probably the Swirl Control Valve for cali-spec models. It's only an emissions thing, and can be disabled (butterflys left wide open).
It restricts the entire intake path at low RPMs (<3600RPM) when engine coolant temp is below 120F I think... for emissions purposes (adds "swirl" to the intake air)
It restricts the entire intake path at low RPMs (<3600RPM) when engine coolant temp is below 120F I think... for emissions purposes (adds "swirl" to the intake air)
01-29-2004, 01:22 PM
#158
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Interesting...-K injectors are 13.5-17.5 ohm per the ESM.
The 00-01 injectors are 290-295cc vs. the 4th gen. 260cc, so that's not a problem. If it is during startup/warmup, you'll just need an adjustable FPR to turn down the base fuel pressure a few psi, however I doubt that's necessary. Just splice on the 00-01 connector.
[edit]
I think sprillis explanation on the butterflys is better.
[/edit]
The 00-01 injectors are 290-295cc vs. the 4th gen. 260cc, so that's not a problem. If it is during startup/warmup, you'll just need an adjustable FPR to turn down the base fuel pressure a few psi, however I doubt that's necessary. Just splice on the 00-01 connector.
[edit]
I think sprillis explanation on the butterflys is better.
[/edit]
01-29-2004, 01:36 PM
#159
Originally Posted by krismax
Im a **** person, so if I just splice you think it will be good to go?
And one other ? under where the TB goes a couple inches in back underneath is that the EGR hookup spot . And is there a book or something that will give more info and pictures on this.
01-29-2004, 01:39 PM
#160
Originally Posted by krismax
Thanks so it can come off ,but that's wierd its federal model. Its hard getting info on this subject , iv'e called everyone no one knows or refuses to help. If i just get some answers to a few ?'s i can do this .
Another ? i have is one the front of the 2000 IM by the TB there is four screw holes with a plastic thing that turns what is supose to be on there?
Another ? i have is one the front of the 2000 IM by the TB there is four screw holes with a plastic thing that turns what is supose to be on there?