I met a guy last night with a VW GTi VR6. He has Intake, exhaust and a garrett chip. He was a cool guy, and when i pulled into the local spot he came up to me and was like "nice car dude" and we talked a bunch and watched others race and such. He wanted a race, but we had just seen 2 people get arrested for racing, so i was like "dude i'll race you but not on this road." well we didn't end up racing last night, but im sure we will see eachother out cruising again. Im always up for a race, whether i know i'll win, lose, or the outcome is uncertain. I know a few people on here say "dont mess with GTi VR6s, they are a whole different animal than Jetta VR6s". I ran down and passed 2 GTi VR6s on a road course on monday, but that doesnt have a whole lot to do with this race. Anyhow, any opinions on rather i should do a stoplight drag with this guy or a highway speed race. it will be late at night either way, thats when we are out cruising, so traffic will be at a minimum. i'll probably do both races with him, but i'd like opinions on which race will show my max in a better light against this guy. Mods listed below... no power mods except a removed stock resonator.

 

Here are a few things to think about before you race him.
First off his car is a little lighter than the max so he'll have an advantage accelerating. Next is which max do you own, SE GLE GXE? Know your limiter, my friend had a GTI VR6 with the Garret chip and had the car up to 130+. Althought according to VW the VR6 is I think 170hp he's more than likely arround 190-200hp(at the cam) if he has done all he said. I think a light to light may be your best bet, unless you feel you can out drive him on a road corse, but you said you max's suspension was stock, what suspension mods did he have? My friend's VR6 GTI was a fast little car, just becareful and don't under estimate it!
1995 GXE 1st Place NOPI Nationals 2000
Skyline conversion???......its coming

 

I have a 96 GXE, mods are listed in my sig. the swaybar listed there has not arrived yet however. i think a race on a road course is pretty unlikely at 1:00am on a saturday night. im talking about street racing here. from reading your post about your race with the GTi, i think i'll have a better chance at a stoplight race rather than highway race. doesnt matter though, win or lose, it will be fun.

 

what year is his?

honestly .. I think you'll get your a$$ kicked if he has those mods ... not dissing u .. only speaking from experience ...

I got my a$$ kicked [& then I challenged him 2 a physical a$$ kicking when he wouldn't stop tailgating me] by a 2000+ GTI 1.8T with at least exhaust .. it wasn't friendly enuff 4 me 2 find out if he had a chip .... those things r much lighter than our rides ...

RussMaxManiac (sp?) almost got whipped @ highway speeds ...

give it a shot ... u never actually know until u try ... but I think you'll lose ....

let us know what happens either way ...

 

Per your sig you have no performance mods on your car. I suggest DO not run him... You will lose guranteed.. My friend just ran a 15.3 at the track friday night, but he couldn't hook up good, he only has a k&n panel filter and chip. Intake, Exhaust wake that car up alot more. They can do stock high 14s with a good driver. Not a car to mess with. I have lost to my friends on the highway, and rolling, but not as bad off the line or rolling compared to highway.

Also friend had a 4th gen ran him, modded, he lost worse than me....

 

You will get rocked! Don't bother running him unless you have a 5spd, intake and Y-Pipe. Read this post of my experience with GTI VR6:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=44931

 

when i only had my intake, i raced a stock 5spd vr6 jetta(newer, heavier ones), my max is auto, and i lost by at least a car length, and a GTi, especially the older ones, are lighter... i recomend passing this race by, unless you just want the thrill
-Barto

 

Phat, he has a 96 SE, its gonna take more than that too get by a GTI if us 2k's guys have to get a ypipe and intake only.

 

why would it be any diffeent between 96 and 2k? i have 98 and beat a 2k? as long as its auto vs auto shouldnt be a diff between 4th vs 5th...4th has advantage at lower speeds and 2k at top end

 

With no y-pipe and intake plus a heavy set of wheels, you'll get beat...probably (unless he can't drive).

I've had a few encounters on the streets and track with VR6 GTIs and I typically walk them after 80mph if it's from a low mph roll. From a stop, I kill them....if I can hook up. Personally, I've never seen this massive topend pull of the VR6. It does really well, but I do walk them. At the track, I've seen two VR6 running mid 15s right around 90mph. On those nights, I was running low 15s at 93mph. Sweet cars though.

BTW, GTis aren't light. They weigh between 2700-3000lbs depending on year. After 91, these cars gained some serious weight.


Dave

 

Its 5 speed vs 5 speed. I dont care about losing, that doesnt worry me, if he was my mortal enemy i might, but hes a cool guy and we both like to race. I was just wondering which race would give the max a better showing, a stoplight drag or a highway race. I've gathered that a stoplight race is the way to go. I dont know what year his car is, but i think they've only made GTi VR6s since like 96 or 97 (does someone know the actual year they started the GTi VR6?) I've ridden in one with intake and exhaust before, last summer, and I dont recall it being terribly fast, but like i said it was a year ago. His car weighs 2800lbs according to him and a few other VW guys that were present. I'll race him next weekend if he's out and post up how i do.

 

The key is knowing what mods they had if any at all. If you go up against a GTI VR6 with chip, intake and exhaust I think you might lose. One with a chip and K&N would probably be even with you car based on your mods. "If you can hook up" is also the key and what racing is all about! The GTI is really held back by the crappy stock tires as well...trust me with good tires they are great off the line.

 

The only reason you beat one was because of the driver. We had this test a while back, even the auto 2k's will lanch as good as a 4th gen. I ran one back in the day with a heavily modded 4th gen and I still beat him by 1-2 car lengths, and JustinMC got pics

 

My friend ran him in his 4th gen, Ants.... He lost, highway, he had ypipe as well.

 

Stop light is the way to go, those cars have better gearing and top end than us, your only chance is the 1/4 with him, but its still iffy....

 

I was just about to post about my run in with a GTI VR6 saturday night from Lake Shore Drive around to 90E....man O man is all I have to say, if it's on curves you can kiss it goodbye my friend this guy (looked mostly stock) was hitting them doing 95mph's I mean I felt like a boat...but the good part is you won't get walked badly...when it straightens up you can gain ground but that little car will suprise you......But I think all in all you will probably lose..but can't really tell cause we were both pulling on each other....Well to sum it up...wait a check or two and do what Im doing.....leaving stock behind... But to all the non believers take it from me...that lil vR6 GTI is satan...not my style of car personally...kinda feminine, but overall not bad......

Depending on how long you had your Max enjoy it stock for a minute...that's what Im doing.....

You win some You lose some but you are shortly waking up the world to the VQ...even the few I've lost they still was shocked that they didn't completely walk me

Even raced a 85 Monte Carlo with a blower...that sucker hit the gas and the damn front end almost came off the ground..needless to say I got RAN...not even walked he jogged me (jokey joke ) fast SOB..but he thumbs up'd I laughed he did also and it was fun... I knew I couldn't win but like to see other cars do their thing

But after the long story (Sorry)
The GTI VR6 is fast BTW the one I raced was a Hatch back...Im in a 96 5sp....as STOCK as ALTEZZA's..J/k but im bone stock not even bulbs yet...arent I pathetic

 

With all this talk about GTI VR6s, this morning a co-worker and myself had to go check out a job site. It just happens that he has a black VR6 GTI 5 speed (completely escaped my mind that he had this). We took his car and I asked to to let me feel the "power". First thing I noticed is how closely spaced the gears are. He goes into 4th in what seemed to be the mid/upper 80s. Off the line, the power is decent, but it doesn't have the torque of the VQ. 2nd gear and 3rd felt good, but 4th felt a little weak. This car didn't feel long legged like a good running VQ. His car is stock and he bangs the gears quite well. I think I got him convinced to go the track me.

When we got back to the office, he wanted a ride in my car since another co-worker talked it up like it was a Z28 or something. As we pulled out of the parking lot, I gunned it in 1st I saw his neck snap and he says "Jesusssss". We get rolling at 3800rpm in 2nd down a entrance ramp and I punch it. Again his head snaps and shortly after I bang 3rd at 6200rpms and keep my foot buried till the top of 3rd. He looks over and says, "this car is much faster than mine. Your 3rd gear is wicked." As we turned around and came back, I told him about many of the mods for the VR6 and he said he wants to do some stuff which means I might be modding a VR6 here shortly. BTW, the seats in those cars are very nice.

Dave

 

Well he is stock and your car is modded out! Mod his GTI progressively. ie. he should get a Garratt Chip and K&N and you guys should do a few runs....makes a huge difference trust me. Then if he mods his exhaust like you I don't think you would be even with him anymore.

 

Dave, maybe that guy has a older Vr6 or its just a Friday model. My friends is fast and its defintely faster than my car. He was stock, his car has ALOT of TQ around 3300 rpm and it will snap your head back. He has a 2001 which to the VW guys have more power than the older ones. When he took me for a ride, he got up to 120 in no time flat...it pulls quick. And his 2nd gear hits 65 stock. Now with the chip it hits 75 mph in 2nd. So obviously the vr6 you drove was defintely different gearing, etc. I have in the past beaten several VR6s but never ran a newer one.

 

You guys talk as if this "Garrett" chip adds a ton of hp. With all this talk about VR6s, I decided to do a little searching and while I couldn't find a good VR6 forum, I did find some member pages and a timeslip posting. Many people state that the Garrett chip "feels" like it added some power, but not a ton. One guy even questioned if it added anything. The quickest posted NA VR6 was a 14.9@96mph with 2.4 60 foot. Mods were a chip, cam, I/E. The S/C'd VR6s were consistently in the upper 13s@102mph (SC Maxima territory).

Just because adding a chip can extend your 2nd gear from 65mph to 75mph doesn't mean much of anything. The JWT ecu does the same thing, the problem is the intake manifold doesn't allow the 4th gen VQ to make power after 5800 rpms, therefore revving to 7000rpms is absolutely pointless. For reference my VQ is only making 146fwhp at 6300rpms vs 176fwhp at 5600. The VR6 is a same way. It's rated at 174hp at 5800rpms and 171ft/lbs of torque at 4500 therefore little can be done to extend the topend breathing of the VR6.

This is the first time I've ever heard that the VR6 is supposedly underrated from the factory. The other thing I don't understand is that the VR6 GTI has continued to get slower with every year of production. I haven't seen a GTI VR6 or VR6 anything post better than lower 7s 0-60 and mid 15s in the mags. I would assume my buddies 97 VR6 GTI would be one of the quicker ones seeing that it is lighter than the new one.

Russ, I don't think your buddies VR6 is any quicker than your car. I think he's just a better driver. Until you guys take it to the track and compare slips, we'll never really know. Didn't your buddy run a 15.3 with bad traction or something in his VR6 with a chip and intake? I've run 15.0s@94mph with horrible 2.4 60 foots and chirping 2nd pretty hard and in the heat. If I can run those ets with a lack of traction, you should be able to do nearly as good.


Dave

 

Dave, let me say one thing I made a mistake on, yes my car does hiut 67-68 in 2nd gear, I tested it tonight. Sorry about that. The other thing is, it doesn't take much to drop it on the freeway and seeing who starts to pull. He started to pull right away.

 

I think you are right about the older ones being faster ie. 1993-1999 (before the new style). My friends 1999 just ripped a 2001 3 cars by mid third gear with even starts. But I'm telling you man they are faster than you think....0-60 times on the older ones have always been under 7seconds (with stock tires) and they pull nice right up to 120mph (top of 4th) I've hit 145 in one by myself..you need it chipped to do that as well! I know for a fact their 4th gear is stronger than ours for sure. My buddy's 1999 VR6 gave me a better run than a GTP, 740, and about on par with older 5.0 Stangs. I don't know what else to say other than tell your co-worker to drop in those low cost mods and you guys go out for a few runs against each other rather than ride in each others cars.

 

I'll need to drive his car to get a better idea. Maybe we'll line'em up one afternoon after work.

From the passenger seat, the VR6 feels snappy, but lacks the "long legged" acceleration of the VQ. Atleast that's what I felt. The gearing feels very much like my buddies 2k Si in that the gears are tighter and closer spaced. Seeing that he shifted to 4th in what seemed like the mid 80s, it sounds like the VR6 has much better 1/4 mile gearing compared to the 4th gen VQ and I think this why they trap out a little higher.


Dave

 

I have a FSTB, RSB, Hiflo intake and Short Throw shifter all of which make a huge difference. I was able to hold all the same corners as the 1999 GTI VR6 I was running with and keep the lead. My car feels a 1000X better with the FSTB/RSB and run it a lot harder than before those mods. I have a Cattman Y-Pipe going on soon so I'm very interested to see how I run against the VR6 again. I'm not concerned about 1st-2nd since I know I got him already...I just wanna pull hard in 3rd-4th-5th. He passed a Boxter at 235KM/hr (about 145mph) since the Boxter had a limiter....that would suck to be passed by a VW Golf at 140mph while your driving your Porsche full out!

 

Hey gang...

I just registered here so I could post on this topic. There seems to be some confusion as which car will win. I worked for a VW tuner for a while, as well as a VW dealer, and I run a VW club in So Cal.

I'm assuming the GTI VR6 in question is an A3 (1994-1998). Note...1993 was 2.0L only (115hp) in the A3 models if I recall correctly.

Well, let's see...the VR6 was introduced in the Corrado SLC in 1992.5, rated at 178hp/174tq. A free-flowing cat made this one a little stronger than the others to follow in the GTI...the VR6 in the 94-98 GTI is rated at 174hp/172tq, +/- 2hp. Curb weight is right around 3,000 lbs. These cars would run low 15's at low 90's trap speeds. 0-60 is about 6.8 to 7.4 secs.

I've heard a lot of Max owners on other boards claim high 14's stock. If that's true, then you have a good chance of beating an A3 GTI VR6.

With a GIAC chip, intake + exhaust, expect the VR6 to pick up about 20hp (crank). On the late-model VR6, we tested an Autotech chip which made an average gain of 12.5hp between 3k-6k rpm to the WHEELS on the dyno. The I/E/C VR6 in that GTI should be putting out ~194hp/~182tq. With those mods, a high 14 (14.8-14.9) at around 93 mph is possible, but would require the right tires, a great launch, and a 60-ft. at 2.3 or faster.

The Corrado VR6 could run 14.9 stock, but this is not typical. Most would run low 15's. It's the same with the VR6 GTI. I've *heard* people claim 14.9 stock, but I've yet to see it. I would think 15.1-15.4 for a stock GTI VR6 is more realistic; and 14.8-15.1 with the mods you mentioned.

Hope that helps NEALOC! Catch you in Car Chat...

 

Ya see, Sean knows what he's talking about. He has experience in the VW community. I'd say mod for mod, the VR6 and the 92+ Maximas are so close it's very hard to tell who will win. Maybe I've gotten lucky, maybe I'm a better driver, maybe my car is a little faster than most (doubt it), and that's why I beat VR6s.

As Sean posted and from what I've read on other VW sites, the VR6 gains about 18-20hp flywheel hp and 15 ft/lbs of torque with a chip, intake, exhaust (typical mods). The VR6 is already at a disadvantage due to being rated lower in hp/tq and weighing the same as the 4th gen. The VQ gains about 20hp and a whopping 20+ ft/lbs of torque, all at the flywheel, with a y-pipe, exhaust, and intake.

I'd say in an all out race from 0-120, I'd think the Maxima's torque advantage would show and let the Max pull ahead.


Dave

 

Only one way to find out. I'm not debating 1/4mile VR6 times or 0-60 times. Stock for stock 5spds a GTI will pull on a Max in 4th somewhere between 100-120. I'm telling you man their 4th is stronger but the one I ran with had a K&N and Garratt. And to the VW guy...A3 and A4 bodies shared the 1999 year since the A4 body came out later into 1999. VW sold A3 body cars in fall of 1998 as 1999 cars. This was the case in Canada at least.

 

Sean:

Is that flywheel hp/tq or at the wheels for the VR6? I'm assuming at the flywheel because 12.5 X 1.18 (typical tranny loss 18%) equals about 15. Add that to 174 and you get about 189hp (I assume 194hp means you're adding in for an intake). Currently, my Maxima is making 175 fwhp and 193 fwtq or about 208hp and 228 ft/lbs of torque at the fly. My mods at the time were a y-pipe, intake, cat, and B-pipe with the stock muffler. So technically, if my math is right, I should be making about 14hp and 46 ft/lbs more torque than a typically modded VR6? Assuming the VR6 does have slightly better gearing, I give up some of my torque advantage, but I should still come out on top.....like I have in the past

Ahhh hell, it's just a numbers game now. I need to find the last VR6 I raced 2 months ago.


Dave

 

Yes, flywheel HP. But as far as the conversion goes...it's usually never as high as 18%. My own car suffers only a 9% loss for drivetrain/friction, as per the coast down before my dyno showed (~190hp/~200tq @ wheels).

But regardless...numbers will vary a lot - even between the same identical car on two different days, or in two different places. I say leave a post on VW Vortex, and see if there's any VR6 owners near you. Ask if they would be up for a friendly run, just to put this debate to an end. Go grab a bite to eat, teach him about Nismos, he'll teach you about VR6's, and then "go play on the freeway" as momma used to say. Bring a video camera, post the vid, and enjoy. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone with a Maxima around here. Save for one which belongs to a friend's dad which was recently supercharged, but it's a show car, and from what I understand, he would never race it. Ahh well.

 

If you really want to race the guy - do it at a TRACK - street racing is a)illegal b) ignorant c)dangerous (to others) d)the fastest way to loose your car in some states (including the one I live in - new laws on this are BRUTAL)...

So, find a track - pay the small fee - and race -

 

While you message is commendable, why'd u bump a 9 year old thread?

 

i dunno but he seems lil tard... he has a sig that says 99 max with vg30de lol

 

lol i thought someone got on Neal's username.... then I saw the dates..

fail

 

check the dates son, this thread is 9 years old

 

wow...

 

9 years

 

I don't know what's worse....the fact that he bumped up a 9 year old thread, or the fact that he completely ignored the seven 1/4 mile times listed in Neal's sig.......