Rowan

iTrader: (1)

So in light of the Infiniti G35 vs Bimmer 328 in Car and Drivers most recent edition, what do you guys think? Why is the VQ considered non refined and what can Nissan do to improve on this so we can actually win a comparo? G35 performed better in pretty much every catogory yet the 3 series one, primarily, as stated due to refinement. So let's hear it if you're an engine guy.

This is in general maxima because of the vq but if it's not a strong enough link, mods, please move it as you see fit!

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

The VQ30 was considered a more refined engine than the VQ35 - smoother running and less peaky. The VQ35 is a torque monster and has tons of power, but having driven both I can say that the VQ30 is much smoother and "refined" IMO.....

LA02MAX

iTrader: (3)

You haven't driven a VQ35HR. It's not anything like the VQ35DE. Are you sure the article mentioned the engine being less refined, or was it talking about the chassis? I've heard nothing but good things about the HR (my friend's mom has one) and the dynos show that it makes power all the way to 7k+ RPMs. I'd still take a VQ35HR over an N53 Now an N54 on the other hand....

markd248

iTrader: (8)

I've heard a lot of complaints about Nissan trying to pull too much power from the vq35. Although that doesnt just pertain to the engine, I've heard people complain about their clutch and stuff.

I dont agree with those, but of course I don't think car and driver or road and track are really hardcore enthusiast magazines.

LA02MAX

iTrader: (3)

The clutch in the 5.5/6th gen is very strong. I doubt they would make the RWD clutch for the HR weaker...

KsuMax

factory snail

krismax

iTrader: (15)

yeah car and driver does complain about the HR and how its noisy and has vibration through the shifter . imagine that a 306 HP + car with some driver feedback .

bottom line you put a old *** in a exciting vehicle and he wont like it . performance wise it destroyed the 3 series but they appear not to care about performance

Nietzsche

iTrader: (7)

The fact is C&D has a hard on for BMW. Every now and then they fall, but it's rare. If it was a 335i I might see more validity but a 328-NO WAY. The interior is far better, exterior is beautiful, build quality is spot on, and lets not even talk about reliability differences. There is also the old kickback conspiracy, or just plain I love bimmers and am blinded by it(some people still love the taurus).

Rowan

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I agree with most of the above. However, I am asking more the question of what Nissan can do engineering wise to make the engine less harsh, particularly above 4500K. How does BMW do it (besides the more inherant smoothness of the inline six vs v6 layout. Also, I kind of think that some Toyota engines tend to rev up in a more smooth and certainly less noisy way than the VQ. I've never driven Toyota's new V6 though.

I don't really know anything about engine REFINEMENT. Sure, we all know that cams, valves, turbos, variable intake, exhaust, individual throttle bodies, direct injection tend to add POWER but what about refinement? Do balance shafts, micro polishing, higher tolerance design help? I don't know for sure.

Lefteezy

direct injection, like rowan said, would add to the refinement level.

MrGone

iTrader: (30)

Pushrods, it needs more pushrods.




Settle for a single chain or a VE style timing chain. If they want a motor to satisfy the girls, slightly less stroke, more bore, widen the engine. VTC's on all the cams.



Personally I think "refined" engines are boring and have no character. (by refined I mean smooth and linear)

Rowan

iTrader: (1)

Haha, I like precisely the opposite type of engine! If you can get good power from a refined engine that doesn't sound harsh when pushed, I'd take that any day over pushrod or SOHC engines!

LA02MAX

iTrader: (3)

I've driven the new camry V6 and I thought it sounded horrible up top (much worse than my VQ) but it did pull really hard about 5k rpms.

You have to realize that the two makes you just listed (toyota and bimmer) are the most sack ridden makes in the media. Just because toyota and bmw do make excellent products doesn't mean they're ALWAYS better than the competition. Just because the BMW seemed 'more refined' doesn't make it a better car. If the G35 did everything better than the BMW (driving-wise) it should have won, but I don't really care as I don't pay attention to them at all for this very reason. It's all up to what the buyers want, so you can't just go by what a magazine says is better.

krismax

iTrader: (15)

what makes me laugh is there comparing apples to oranges the g35 has 76hp more than the 3 series there testing it against.

more hp will bring less smoothness

LA02MAX

iTrader: (3)

V6 vs. I6

R1C3RCKT

i know the VQ uses a timing chain instead of a timing belt which toyota uses in their 3.0L V6s. I"m not sure about the 3.3 or 3.5L toyota v6 egines, but inherently timing chains make more noise than timing belts, but they do not have to be replaced, whereas timing belts are made of rubber and need to be replaced.

GoalieKeg

iTrader: (4)

Exactly. The whole article is pointless IMO. Basically all they're saying is, "let's compare two completely different cars, with completely different motors, and say one is more refined than the other." This is assinine due to the fact that if the motors had anything in common besides being 6 cylinders and fuel injected, well we might have a halfway decent article!


DIAF to Car and Driver.

As far as the word refinement, what do they mean when they use the word? Refinement, as in smooth torque curve? Smoother acceleration? As far as I'm concerned, when they use the word "refinement" they mean what feels better to my old arthritic borne bones when I drive on a daily basis - Pointless blabber.

When we look at the VQ series motor, we see durability beyond compare to ANY BMW motor. Timing chains that will last for hundreds of thousands of miles, VERY tight tolerances on most internal parts, micropolished cranks, etc. I remember a guy on here who took apart a 250k+ vq30 motor (that was in running condition), and found EVERY DAMN PART within measurable tolerance spec, and this motor was beat up. I'd like to see a BMW motor with that kind of mileage on it do that.

Once again, DIAF Car and Driver.

Rowan

iTrader: (1)

I don't think it's pointless. From a buyer's perspective, mid size, entry level luxury, for around the same price those are two of your better choices. So why not compare them?

clayman88

iTrader: (1)

Not sure what will make it more refined, but I'm not holding my breath for the day any magazine rates a Nissan/Infiniti over the All-Powerful BMW.

doc2278

iTrader: (3)

agreed, VQ30 seems much more peppy and smooth (like a milkshake)

nismology

iTrader: (8)

That has everything to do with the VQ35's geometry and nothing to do with inferior build quality. If you already knew that, more power to you. This is for the ignorant...

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Seriously. It's a well-known fact that I6's are smoother in general since they are perfectly balanced by nature. Says nothing about the VQ.

4x4Max

iTrader: (12)

I've driven the new 306hp 6spd G35 sedan, and every person who i rode with was surprised at how much the shifter was vibrating. With a little practice, i could probably tell which RPM i'm at by the vibration level of the shifter. I think i'm the only one of the group that actually liked the vibration though, i like to 'feel' my car....

LA02MAX

iTrader: (3)

My stepmom's B6 Audi A4 did the same thing. I kinda liked it.

STARR

iTrader: (1)

just add some 0w30 German Castrol

4x4Max

iTrader: (12)

Thats what my max gets

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

The VQ already has all of this... unless you're saying something else.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

No balance shafts. Don't need 'em either.

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

I guess I could have put that better.

Frank Fontaine

One of the major issues right off the bat is V6 vs I6. The V6 cannot defy physics in its layout so it necessarily needs counter balance shafts, which adds weight, complexity, and friction. Even MB uses a V6 now..basically it's a more compact motor that can be used across many platforms, including FWD/AWD. But it's gonna be hard to deploy one and not shift weight of the vehicle to the front as a result.

Also, the VQ lacks direct injection, so you could say the fuel economy by 2k7 standards is actually fair to poor. The BMW N54 puts out 300 ft. lbs. to the VQ's what, 26x? Yet the VQ gets not so hot fuel economy.

Vibration is to be expected in a 20k car, but the G35 is a 40k car i.e. lack of refinement. As an analogy, the OP's question would be like asking "how can I teach my g/f manners?" Well, that's not easy because it has a lot to do with how she was brought up and where she is from. The VQ would have the same problem.

Frank Fontaine

V6's lack secondary balance--the counter balance shafts reduce this imbalance, with a trade-off being friction, weight, complexity. Unfortunately, the trade-off is worth it, as in an inline 4. And I6 has primary and secondary balance and doesn't need the shafts.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Preaching to the choir. I know what balance shafts do. Like i said, the VQ is smooth enough where it wouldn't be worth it to implement them. 4-cylinders are massage machines without them.

OffTheLine

No its not pointless comparing two entry level luxury sedans for potential buyers. Whats pointless is writing the article from a biased perspective. That and saying that one car is more refined then the either is so vague. Saying somethings refined is an opinion, not a real comparison. What a useless article!

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

Wait a second. Did the 328i win because its engine was more refined, or becaus it was more refined? BIG difference...

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I think it was a little of both. They commented on the lack of engine vibration, and also the feel of the chassis.

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

Okay, that makes sense.


The reason Infiniti lost the engine refinement comparison is twofold:

1. As has been said, even given similar levels of engineering and power, a V6 will be less smooth than an I6, period. There is no substitute for natural balance.

2. Second, BMW uses VALVETRONIC and direct injection. In a nutshell, those two things give them MUCH finer control over what the engine does. Infiniti has some nice tricks in the VQ35HR, but nothing that can match BMW's combo for power delivery and smoothness.


If the question is how the VQ can be made "more refined", the answer is to use similar tricks to what BMW is using. Throttle response via continuously variable valve timing and lift, combined with direct injection, could do wonders. But if the question is how the VQ can be made to compete with BMW's I6s for refinement, IMO the answer is that it can't be done. The best it can do is compete for power, price, reliability, and practicality (which is really what the G35 is about anyway).


And for all you people getting p*ssyhurt about BMW winning another comparison, eventually you will realize that even a 328i is plenty fast on real roads when you want it to be, and what BMW is able to accomplish with their chassis (balance, dynamics, ride, driver confidence, driver involvement, cohesive feel, etc.) is FAR more impressive than going fast and turning hard.

Frank Fontaine

*LOL* you didn't go to HS at Bronx Science, did you?

Physics is physics. Even MB has them in their V6's. And we all know that German physics is better than TN physics.

Frank Fontaine

I bought a 335i this year, and it's not as equipped as the e90 330i I gave up to my ex. The road feel is just something no Japanese car can achieve, at least not to date. I'm sure Lexus is working very hard and may someday unseat the 3 Series. People can hate it all they want, doesn't change how it drives. And I can easily see how a 328 (got one as a loaner when I did my 1200 mi oil change) is more pleasing to a driver than a new G35. Wont have the same toys at the same price, and far less HP. But what it does with what it's got is sweet.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Read much? I said the VQ is SMOOTH ENOUGH where it wouldn't be worth the added cost to implement them. The VQ can get away with not using them. 4-cylinders cannot without excessive NVH levels. Furthermore, despite the fundamental imbalance the OEM VQ35 crankshaft is good for 10,000 RPM before snapping.


And i dare you to find any V6 that is SUBSTANTIALLY smoother than a VQ30, balance shafts or not.

Frank Fontaine

Wasn't the entire point of this thread the fact that the VQ is not refined, and one of the complaints vibration? My 98 SE is smoother than my 335 at idle, and much quieter. That changes altogether above 2000 rpm. The VQ is a mess at 4500 rpm. And yes, the latter is a I6. But at the end of the day, the VQ is a fine motor for a car in the 20k range. Where it falls short is when it gets dropped into a 40k Infiniti. It's not all about 306 HP, it's how it's delivered.