Flywheel situation update- 3rd vs 4th vs 5th gen
10-22-2001, 12:55 PM
#1
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Flywheel situation update- 3rd vs 4th vs 5th gen
I got a call back from my machine shop who was gonna lighten my flywheel and they told me this. They unbolted the secondary ring gear from the main ring gear and they tell me that there really isnt any place to lighten the OE flywheel, and even if there was, there wouldnt be enough meat to remove to yield a siginificant difference. Now that I think about it, I dont think anybody in the 4th or 5th gen's have had their OE flywheel chopped. Only 3rd gen's including Jeff92se and Matt93gxe. Jeff92SE- this tells me that the 3rd generation's flywheel is different then the 4th gen. Is the 3rd Gen 1 piece instead of 2 piece?
Ive been doing some math and searching this afternoon and came up with these.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....light=flywheel
The formula according to Phuong for calculating flywheel weight reduction is:
1/2 FW weight * [(flywheel radius x gear x final drive)/(tire radius)]^2
The example cited in this thread http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....light=flywheel is of a 5th generation tire size. On my 4th generaion, I am running 225 50 16s. I did the conversions and plugged in the formula. BTW, the 4th gen's M/T gearing is like this according to my FSM on page MT40. Ratios: 1st (3.285), 2nd (1.850), 3rd (1.272), 4th (0.954), 5th(0.795), Reverse (3.428) and Final gear is (3.823). For those of you who want to plug the formula in easier in 1st gear it will be 1/2 flywheel weight * [(120mm*3.285x3.823)/314.96mm]^2.
Going from a 24 pound to a 12 pound flywheel in a 4th generation running 225 50 16s would yield a weight reduction at 186.24 pounds in 1st gear. This is more then a 5th gen's 126.33 pound reduction, and it will be even more significant considering a 4th generation is lighter then a 5th.
Now I'm back to my dilemma if either just getting the OE flywheel resurfaced and balanced with the p plate for $30, or spending close to $500 on either a Stillen or an Unorthodox Racing flywheel. Now that I've done the math for a Stillen flywheel and it is more significant then a 5th gen, it makes me wonder. On the other hand, last time I went down the drag strip I had full interior and both my stereo in tow (2 15" woofers, I estimate with them and the amps to be around 100 pounds in the trunk) AND my spare tire/jack, and I ran a 14.6.
By the way, what is the realistic weight of the U/R flywheel? I guess I can figure this out by weighing the 2ndary flywheel piece and adding 5 pounds to that...
I might write a program that can determine the amount of mass taken of flywheel just like the Miata net tire calculator.
Ive been doing some math and searching this afternoon and came up with these.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....light=flywheel
The formula according to Phuong for calculating flywheel weight reduction is:
1/2 FW weight * [(flywheel radius x gear x final drive)/(tire radius)]^2
The example cited in this thread http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....light=flywheel is of a 5th generation tire size. On my 4th generaion, I am running 225 50 16s. I did the conversions and plugged in the formula. BTW, the 4th gen's M/T gearing is like this according to my FSM on page MT40. Ratios: 1st (3.285), 2nd (1.850), 3rd (1.272), 4th (0.954), 5th(0.795), Reverse (3.428) and Final gear is (3.823). For those of you who want to plug the formula in easier in 1st gear it will be 1/2 flywheel weight * [(120mm*3.285x3.823)/314.96mm]^2.
Going from a 24 pound to a 12 pound flywheel in a 4th generation running 225 50 16s would yield a weight reduction at 186.24 pounds in 1st gear. This is more then a 5th gen's 126.33 pound reduction, and it will be even more significant considering a 4th generation is lighter then a 5th.
Now I'm back to my dilemma if either just getting the OE flywheel resurfaced and balanced with the p plate for $30, or spending close to $500 on either a Stillen or an Unorthodox Racing flywheel. Now that I've done the math for a Stillen flywheel and it is more significant then a 5th gen, it makes me wonder. On the other hand, last time I went down the drag strip I had full interior and both my stereo in tow (2 15" woofers, I estimate with them and the amps to be around 100 pounds in the trunk) AND my spare tire/jack, and I ran a 14.6.
By the way, what is the realistic weight of the U/R flywheel? I guess I can figure this out by weighing the 2ndary flywheel piece and adding 5 pounds to that...
I might write a program that can determine the amount of mass taken of flywheel just like the Miata net tire calculator.
10-22-2001, 01:09 PM
#2
Search is such a great function 
For drag racing, I'd recommend you keep the stock flywheel. A 180ish lb weight reduction is generally good for .1 to .2 seconds (ie gutting your interior) but you will have some difficulty in the launch with a lighter flywheel. Most drag cars prefer stock flywheels for this reason.
If you're into road racing or autocrossing, that weight reduction in first and second gear will make a dramatic improvement in your times since it is over the course of 50-60 seconds (SoloII) or 1.5 to 2 minutes on road courses.
Your call.
For drag racing, I'd recommend you keep the stock flywheel. A 180ish lb weight reduction is generally good for .1 to .2 seconds (ie gutting your interior) but you will have some difficulty in the launch with a lighter flywheel. Most drag cars prefer stock flywheels for this reason.
If you're into road racing or autocrossing, that weight reduction in first and second gear will make a dramatic improvement in your times since it is over the course of 50-60 seconds (SoloII) or 1.5 to 2 minutes on road courses.
Your call.
10-22-2001, 01:22 PM
#3
I've been following your saga closely, and just so you know, some of us do care and are interested. Seems like some people on this board are only here to yell at you for how "stupid" you are for not being impressed with Nissan's 4G 5speed transmission durability. But what you doing to your driveline is what I had planned to do to mine instead of having the bearing simply replaced, but $$$ and school made me chose otherwise.
Anyways, I was just reading in european car today about their project 95 M3, which they bought a lightened flywheel for. The weight reduction (flywheel) was similar to your planned reduction. It translated to like 240lb taken off the car in 1st and like 150lb in second. They dyno'd the hp/tq gains and losses and found that at the very bottom end of the spectrum they lost about 10 hp and 10 ft-lb, and at the top they gained about 10 each, right at redline. The lightened flywheel hp and tq intersected the stock dyno pull at 5500 rpm. Their basic assesment was the loss in the low end is less dramatic than the gain at high end, and they would recommend it.
It is important to note however that their car is more road race oriented, whereas I think you are more drag race oriented, which may affect your decision. They did say that a 3000rpm clutch dump, which they had previously used to get their best 1/4 mile times, created a bog condition now with their lightened flywheel. Just some info to help you make your decision.
Anyways, I was just reading in european car today about their project 95 M3, which they bought a lightened flywheel for. The weight reduction (flywheel) was similar to your planned reduction. It translated to like 240lb taken off the car in 1st and like 150lb in second. They dyno'd the hp/tq gains and losses and found that at the very bottom end of the spectrum they lost about 10 hp and 10 ft-lb, and at the top they gained about 10 each, right at redline. The lightened flywheel hp and tq intersected the stock dyno pull at 5500 rpm. Their basic assesment was the loss in the low end is less dramatic than the gain at high end, and they would recommend it.
It is important to note however that their car is more road race oriented, whereas I think you are more drag race oriented, which may affect your decision. They did say that a 3000rpm clutch dump, which they had previously used to get their best 1/4 mile times, created a bog condition now with their lightened flywheel. Just some info to help you make your decision.
10-24-2001, 09:57 PM
#4
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Alright I decided against the lightened flywheel. I cant justify spending $500+ on somethin that probably wont even help me that much (although I've got probably around $1500 in the differential....) Then again on the other hand if the UDP has significant gains, the flywheel's gotta be able to do somethin. Too bad money is such a limiting factor in things...
so for now I just spend $20 on a resurfacing job.
so for now I just spend $20 on a resurfacing job.
10-25-2001, 12:27 AM
#6
hmmm, I fail to see how lightening a flywheel will cost anywhere near $500!
When it was time to replace the clutch in my car, I decided to have the flywheel lightened also...
I didn't have time for downtime on my own car, so I bought another flywheel from a junkyard for $50, then had the work done on it.. resurface and remove 2.5-3lb cost me $70. so total cost for a SECOND flywheel and the work was $120... plus I still have the original in the garage.
Of course, that was also just before install of my $300 ACT clutch.. which was just before my $900 tranny rebuild..
(didn't know the tranny needed rebuilt until I had it out of the car for the clutch swap. so I STILL ended up with a week of downtime as I drove dad's second car while the tranny was in the shop)..
As for driving differences, I don't really notice much in loss of driveability.. launching is quite a bit different, but I'd say that's mostly due to the ACT clutch.. it's either grab, or no-grab.. not much smoothly slipping the car into movement..
I mean you CAN smoothly engage it, but you have to rev to about 2500 and sloooowly let out on it..
for normal driving, I just go to about 1500 and slip the clutch, then feather the gas for a smooth start.
as for off-the-line drag starts, I doubt if you'll see a difference on a 4th gen. those things have a LOT more torque down low than my VE, and I don't have problems launching at stoplights and leaving honduhs breathing my exhaust fumes.
I would definitely recommend getting it done if I had to do it again- whether it be for drag racing or road course stuff.
Also remember that it doesn't take any weight off the meaty part of the flywheel.. on the 3rd gens, there's a big, thick ring around the outer edge (just inside the starter tooth ring, whatever it's called).
there are pics on my website of the whole clutch replacement process, and I took many pics of the stock and modded flywheels for reference.
www.ee.utulsa.edu/~mblehm/pics/car/clutch
When it was time to replace the clutch in my car, I decided to have the flywheel lightened also...
I didn't have time for downtime on my own car, so I bought another flywheel from a junkyard for $50, then had the work done on it.. resurface and remove 2.5-3lb cost me $70. so total cost for a SECOND flywheel and the work was $120... plus I still have the original in the garage.
Of course, that was also just before install of my $300 ACT clutch.. which was just before my $900 tranny rebuild..
(didn't know the tranny needed rebuilt until I had it out of the car for the clutch swap. so I STILL ended up with a week of downtime as I drove dad's second car while the tranny was in the shop)..
As for driving differences, I don't really notice much in loss of driveability.. launching is quite a bit different, but I'd say that's mostly due to the ACT clutch.. it's either grab, or no-grab.. not much smoothly slipping the car into movement..
I mean you CAN smoothly engage it, but you have to rev to about 2500 and sloooowly let out on it..
for normal driving, I just go to about 1500 and slip the clutch, then feather the gas for a smooth start.
as for off-the-line drag starts, I doubt if you'll see a difference on a 4th gen. those things have a LOT more torque down low than my VE, and I don't have problems launching at stoplights and leaving honduhs breathing my exhaust fumes.
I would definitely recommend getting it done if I had to do it again- whether it be for drag racing or road course stuff.
Also remember that it doesn't take any weight off the meaty part of the flywheel.. on the 3rd gens, there's a big, thick ring around the outer edge (just inside the starter tooth ring, whatever it's called).
there are pics on my website of the whole clutch replacement process, and I took many pics of the stock and modded flywheels for reference.
www.ee.utulsa.edu/~mblehm/pics/car/clutch
10-25-2001, 05:48 AM
#8
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,530
Originally posted by Matt93SE
hmmm, I fail to see how lightening a flywheel will cost anywhere near $500!
When it was time to replace the clutch in my car, I decided to have the flywheel lightened also...
-SNIP-
Also remember that it doesn't take any weight off the meaty part of the flywheel.. on the 3rd gens, there's a big, thick ring around the outer edge (just inside the starter tooth ring, whatever it's called).
there are pics on my website of the whole clutch replacement process, and I took many pics of the stock and modded flywheels for reference.
www.ee.utulsa.edu/~mblehm/pics/car/clutch [/B]
hmmm, I fail to see how lightening a flywheel will cost anywhere near $500!
When it was time to replace the clutch in my car, I decided to have the flywheel lightened also...
-SNIP-
Also remember that it doesn't take any weight off the meaty part of the flywheel.. on the 3rd gens, there's a big, thick ring around the outer edge (just inside the starter tooth ring, whatever it's called).
there are pics on my website of the whole clutch replacement process, and I took many pics of the stock and modded flywheels for reference.
www.ee.utulsa.edu/~mblehm/pics/car/clutch [/B]
10-25-2001, 06:20 AM
#9
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Originally posted by ericdwong
OK I think you misunderstood my post. A lightened flywheel for a 4 gen would cost $500 cause the alloy flywheel is the only way to go. You can't lighten a VQ's flywheel cause its a 2 piecer.
OK I think you misunderstood my post. A lightened flywheel for a 4 gen would cost $500 cause the alloy flywheel is the only way to go. You can't lighten a VQ's flywheel cause its a 2 piecer.
10-25-2001, 09:47 AM
#10
flywheel really isnt worth $500. you can only feel it rev up fast in 1st n 2nd. other than that.. nothing really. i dont think it was worth all that much ..
make your own.
its easy. if you know Autocad or proE
make your own.
its easy. if you know Autocad or proE
10-25-2001, 08:23 PM
#11
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Originally posted by Chebosto
flywheel really isnt worth $500. you can only feel it rev up fast in 1st n 2nd. other than that.. nothing really. i dont think it was worth all that much ..
flywheel really isnt worth $500. you can only feel it rev up fast in 1st n 2nd. other than that.. nothing really. i dont think it was worth all that much ..
10-26-2001, 02:45 PM
#13
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Some More Objective Flywheel Data
Alright I unbolted my secondary ring gear from the flywheel today and weighed it using my parent's postal scale, which is accurate to the .1 of an ounce. With the bolts that hold it to the flywheel, I put it on the scale and low and behold it came out to ONE pound, 10.8 ounces! That's less then two pounds total! So, the Unorthodox Racing flywheel of 5 pounds would realistically be around 6.675 pounds with the secondary ring gear bolted in place.
According to the Stillen website, their flywheel is at 13 pounds. According to my bathroom scale, the stock flywheel by itself weighs anywhere from 18-22 pounds cause I couldnt get an accurate reading. I will probably take the flywheel to a post office tomorow to have them weigh it (my parent's postal scale is only 5 pound capacity).
So, once again going back to the forumulas I rechecked my math. Looks like I screwed up somewhere, this time around I got a 137 pound weight reduction going from 24 to 12 pounds on a gen 4. If someone can recheck my math and advise. Anyway, at worst case scenario, the weight reduction would be about 11 pounds (going from 18 pound flywheel to a 7 pound flywheel). Here the reduction is 125 pounds or so. Now, the opposite extreme, if the stocker weighed 24 pounds, and we give the new flywheel a 7 pound weight, thats a 17 pound reduction. Then, going from a 24 pounder to a 7 pound is a 194 pound weight reduction. Assuming my car is 3100 pounds (I should get it weighed), thats about a 6% reduction in its weight. Of course weight is not the only factor here, theres also engine bogging, shifting of power in the power band. Since nobody here seems to have the Unorthodox Racing flywheel, I guess my only real way to say if its worth it or not is to go ahead and buy one then report back here. After all, launching the car will need readjustment as I've changed so many variables already (clutch, ATB, motor mounts). And, if the underdrive pulley made a significant difference, primarily cause of its weight reduction, I can imagine what this would do. Still hoping for 13s naturally aspirated, and I'll need all the help I can get.
According to the Stillen website, their flywheel is at 13 pounds. According to my bathroom scale, the stock flywheel by itself weighs anywhere from 18-22 pounds cause I couldnt get an accurate reading. I will probably take the flywheel to a post office tomorow to have them weigh it (my parent's postal scale is only 5 pound capacity).
So, once again going back to the forumulas I rechecked my math. Looks like I screwed up somewhere, this time around I got a 137 pound weight reduction going from 24 to 12 pounds on a gen 4. If someone can recheck my math and advise. Anyway, at worst case scenario, the weight reduction would be about 11 pounds (going from 18 pound flywheel to a 7 pound flywheel). Here the reduction is 125 pounds or so. Now, the opposite extreme, if the stocker weighed 24 pounds, and we give the new flywheel a 7 pound weight, thats a 17 pound reduction. Then, going from a 24 pounder to a 7 pound is a 194 pound weight reduction. Assuming my car is 3100 pounds (I should get it weighed), thats about a 6% reduction in its weight. Of course weight is not the only factor here, theres also engine bogging, shifting of power in the power band. Since nobody here seems to have the Unorthodox Racing flywheel, I guess my only real way to say if its worth it or not is to go ahead and buy one then report back here. After all, launching the car will need readjustment as I've changed so many variables already (clutch, ATB, motor mounts). And, if the underdrive pulley made a significant difference, primarily cause of its weight reduction, I can imagine what this would do. Still hoping for 13s naturally aspirated, and I'll need all the help I can get.
10-26-2001, 03:41 PM
#14
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Re: Some More Objective Flywheel Data
Dood if you really want 13's NA your going to need at least 195-205fwhp and that is assuming you have a sticky track and slicks (sub 1.9 60fts). Now the effect of the flywheel would only help you in the 1/8 mile at most. Even then you'd be in 2nd gear right around 90ft and hit 3rd before the 1/8. Anything after that the flywheel won't have as much effect. You basically have 2 options for more power NA, get a better intake manifold and/or better exhaust manifolds. I've seen 00 VQ30DEs go for $1000-1800, but I'm guessing that if you found a core 00+ VQ the intake manifold/collector shouldn't cost more than $400-600. We know it bolts on (same part # intake manifold-cylinder head gasket) and the vaccum hose routing shouldn't be that hard to do. Assuming you did this manifold swap you are agoing to need the ECU reprogrammed for a higher rev limiter. Just looking at the 5th gen dynos verifys that the car would have an ideal shift point at 7000rpm. From a dyno I have it lists the 3rd gear rpm/mph at 69 and 4th as 51 rpm/mph. Which means you would be able to hold 3rd gear to the new rev limiter and trap around 98-100mph. If you wanted to go even farther you could order new billet cams from nissan and get crower or ISKY to reground them. I'm sure a modded 5th gen could hit 13's NA with bolt ons and 200lb weight reduction + 1.9 60fts.
Originally posted by ericdwong
Still hoping for 13s naturally aspirated, and I'll need all the help I can get.
Still hoping for 13s naturally aspirated, and I'll need all the help I can get.
10-26-2001, 06:23 PM
#15
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Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,628
Originally posted by Nealoc187
I've been following your saga closely, and just so you know, some of us do care and are interested. Seems like some people on this board are only here to yell at you for how "stupid" you are for not being impressed with Nissan's 4G 5speed transmission durability. But what you doing to your driveline is what I had planned to do to mine instead of having the bearing simply replaced, but $$$ and school made me chose otherwise.
Anyways, I was just reading in european car today about their project 95 M3, which they bought a lightened flywheel for. The weight reduction (flywheel) was similar to your planned reduction. It translated to like 240lb taken off the car in 1st and like 150lb in second. They dyno'd the hp/tq gains and losses and found that at the very bottom end of the spectrum they lost about 10 hp and 10 ft-lb, and at the top they gained about 10 each, right at redline. The lightened flywheel hp and tq intersected the stock dyno pull at 5500 rpm. Their basic assesment was the loss in the low end is less dramatic than the gain at high end, and they would recommend it.
It is important to note however that their car is more road race oriented, whereas I think you are more drag race oriented, which may affect your decision. They did say that a 3000rpm clutch dump, which they had previously used to get their best 1/4 mile times, created a bog condition now with their lightened flywheel. Just some info to help you make your decision.
I've been following your saga closely, and just so you know, some of us do care and are interested. Seems like some people on this board are only here to yell at you for how "stupid" you are for not being impressed with Nissan's 4G 5speed transmission durability. But what you doing to your driveline is what I had planned to do to mine instead of having the bearing simply replaced, but $$$ and school made me chose otherwise.
Anyways, I was just reading in european car today about their project 95 M3, which they bought a lightened flywheel for. The weight reduction (flywheel) was similar to your planned reduction. It translated to like 240lb taken off the car in 1st and like 150lb in second. They dyno'd the hp/tq gains and losses and found that at the very bottom end of the spectrum they lost about 10 hp and 10 ft-lb, and at the top they gained about 10 each, right at redline. The lightened flywheel hp and tq intersected the stock dyno pull at 5500 rpm. Their basic assesment was the loss in the low end is less dramatic than the gain at high end, and they would recommend it.
It is important to note however that their car is more road race oriented, whereas I think you are more drag race oriented, which may affect your decision. They did say that a 3000rpm clutch dump, which they had previously used to get their best 1/4 mile times, created a bog condition now with their lightened flywheel. Just some info to help you make your decision.
10-27-2001, 09:51 AM
#16
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Re: Re: Some More Objective Flywheel Data
Originally posted by Nismo87SE
Dood if you really want 13's NA your going to need at least 195-205fwhp and that is assuming you have a sticky track and slicks (sub 1.9 60fts). Now the effect of the flywheel would only help you in the 1/8 mile at most. Even then you'd be in 2nd gear right around 90ft and hit 3rd before the 1/8. Anything after that the flywheel won't have as much effect. You basically have 2 options for more power NA, get a better intake manifold and/or better exhaust manifolds. I've seen 00 VQ30DEs go for $1000-1800, but I'm guessing that if you found a core 00+ VQ the intake manifold/collector shouldn't cost more than $400-600. We know it bolts on (same part # intake manifold-cylinder head gasket) and the vaccum hose routing shouldn't be that hard to do. Assuming you did this manifold swap you are agoing to need the ECU reprogrammed for a higher rev limiter. Just looking at the 5th gen dynos verifys that the car would have an ideal shift point at 7000rpm. From a dyno I have it lists the 3rd gear rpm/mph at 69 and 4th as 51 rpm/mph. Which means you would be able to hold 3rd gear to the new rev limiter and trap around 98-100mph. If you wanted to go even farther you could order new billet cams from nissan and get crower or ISKY to reground them. I'm sure a modded 5th gen could hit 13's NA with bolt ons and 200lb weight reduction + 1.9 60fts.
Dood if you really want 13's NA your going to need at least 195-205fwhp and that is assuming you have a sticky track and slicks (sub 1.9 60fts). Now the effect of the flywheel would only help you in the 1/8 mile at most. Even then you'd be in 2nd gear right around 90ft and hit 3rd before the 1/8. Anything after that the flywheel won't have as much effect. You basically have 2 options for more power NA, get a better intake manifold and/or better exhaust manifolds. I've seen 00 VQ30DEs go for $1000-1800, but I'm guessing that if you found a core 00+ VQ the intake manifold/collector shouldn't cost more than $400-600. We know it bolts on (same part # intake manifold-cylinder head gasket) and the vaccum hose routing shouldn't be that hard to do. Assuming you did this manifold swap you are agoing to need the ECU reprogrammed for a higher rev limiter. Just looking at the 5th gen dynos verifys that the car would have an ideal shift point at 7000rpm. From a dyno I have it lists the 3rd gear rpm/mph at 69 and 4th as 51 rpm/mph. Which means you would be able to hold 3rd gear to the new rev limiter and trap around 98-100mph. If you wanted to go even farther you could order new billet cams from nissan and get crower or ISKY to reground them. I'm sure a modded 5th gen could hit 13's NA with bolt ons and 200lb weight reduction + 1.9 60fts.
10-29-2001, 01:56 PM
#17
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Even More Objective Flywheel Data
Alright I got my OE flywheel weighed at the local post office, and they confirmed it was calibrated to spec, etc. The stock flywheel WITHOUT the secondary ring gear or bolts weighs 18 pounds, 7 ounces. I used my own postal scale and found the bolts and secondary ring gear to be 1 pound, 10.7 ounces. Add these two together and the total rotating mass (not including pressure plate) is 20 pounds, 1.7 ounce. Since the secondary has to be used with either flywheel the difference in weight is roughly 13 pounds, 7 ounces. Or 13.4375 pounds. Plug this number into our favorite equation up above and the weight reduction in first gear is equivalent of removing 153.8 pounds of static weight.
What do I conclude from this? The difference isnt as great as the 24 pound to 6 pound as I had hoped for. Since the unorthodox racing unit is even lighter then the Stillen unit it should make much more of a difference. I also looked on the Unorthodox Website regarding the underdrive pulley, and the drop in weight is almost 6 pounds. If people say their UDP's make a big difference, a 13 pound weight removal from the flywheel should make a huge difference.
What do I conclude from this? The difference isnt as great as the 24 pound to 6 pound as I had hoped for. Since the unorthodox racing unit is even lighter then the Stillen unit it should make much more of a difference. I also looked on the Unorthodox Website regarding the underdrive pulley, and the drop in weight is almost 6 pounds. If people say their UDP's make a big difference, a 13 pound weight removal from the flywheel should make a huge difference.
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