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Old Jul 25, 2010 | 10:50 PM
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Backpressure

I got into an argument today with some V-DUB clown about back pressure and if it's needed.

He was like, "N/A engines need some back pressure to make power" and I said "no, the less back pressure, the better, as long as you tune for the reduced back pressure and don't run lean. You just want some pipes over the heads so that cold air doesn't rush in and warp/burn your valves".

I also got into this same argument a week back at a local performance shop.

Why does everyone think that back pressure is a good thing?

It's like me saying "a dirty air filter gives you power because the engine creates more of a vacuum."

As far as I know, any torque loss at the low end will be dwarfed by the gains up top when running with open headers.


/rant
Old Jul 25, 2010 | 11:51 PM
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Old Jul 26, 2010 | 03:17 AM
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as far as i know back pressure needed on street cars where low end torque is used much more than high end hp. Getting duals on my stealth made the motor rev easier and felt like it was pulling harder up top, down low felt about the same tho. On my Camaro i am just running open headers for now and the motor likes it, revs quickly and pulls hard, although i think i detonated it with too low of octane

Last edited by yevgenievich; Jul 26, 2010 at 03:22 AM.
Old Jul 26, 2010 | 04:07 AM
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People confuse back pressure with scavenging.

You don't need one, you REALLY need the other.
Old Jul 26, 2010 | 04:07 AM
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Old Jul 26, 2010 | 06:13 AM
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Old Jul 26, 2010 | 06:20 AM
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No you need backpressure to make torque.
Old Jul 26, 2010 | 08:44 AM
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What is this "backpressure" you speak of?
Old Jul 26, 2010 | 08:48 AM
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oops, I farted.
Old Jul 26, 2010 | 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MorpheusZero
No you need backpressure to make torque.
That's how crush pipes make the big power.
Old Jul 26, 2010 | 12:21 PM
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bad.
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forum...bad-neither-2/
So, what is backpressure? Any fluid flowing through a pipe experiences drag on the walls of the pipe. This depends on a number of factors, including the diameter of the pipe, the smoothness of the inside of the pipe, the viscosity of the fluid, and the velocity of the fluid. This drag results in a pressure drop through the pipe. In order for the fluid to flow at all, the pressure on one end of the pipe must be higher than at the other. In an exhaust system, that pressure drop is what we refer to as backpressure. It's pretty obvious that the engine has to produce this pressure differential, so the less power it has to spend making pressure to push the exhaust out, the more power it can send to the wheels.

Given that exhaust pipes are pretty smooth, and that we can't change the viscosity (thickness) of the waste gas being forced through the pipes, we are left with basically 2 parameters we can have any control over: The pipe diameter and the gas velocity.

Unfortunately, the pipe diameter controls the gas velocity since the volume of gas is prescribed by the engine. So, we really only have one thing we can change. So, bigger pipes allow less pressure drop for a given volume of gas because the velocity is lower. The pressure drop (backpressure increase) is proportional the gas velocity squared, so if I double the gas velocity (by reducing the cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe by half) then I quadruple the pressure drop.

Well, there's an easy solution for that: Just make the exhaust pipe bigger. Bigger pipe, lower gas velocity, less pressure drop, so less backpressure. Wow, that was easy. After all, this is the way it's done for basically any type of commercial plumbing system. Need less pressure drop on a chilled water pipe or a natural gas line? Just make the pipe bigger.

But wait, there's a problem....Having a huge exhaust pipe has killed my low end torque!!! What's different? Oh, there's no backpressure!! Therefore backpressure makes torque!

Wrong.

An exhaust system is different than just about any other plumbing situation. How? Because the flow is pulsed, and this turns out to be a big deal. Every time a pulse of exhaust gas runs through the pipe, a strange thing happens: it as it passes, it has a little area of vacuum behind it. Just like a NASCAR stocker running around the track, the pulse generates a little bit of a vacuum behind it. In NASCAR, a driver can take advantage of another driver's vacuum by getting right behind him and driving in it. The wind resistance is drastically reduced. This is called drafting.

Well, how big the vacuum behind each pules is depends on the gas velocity. The higher the velocity, the bigger the vacuum the pulse has behind it.

Now, this means that I can "draft" the next pulse, just like in NASCAR. In NASCAR, it's called drafting, in an exhaust system, it's called scavenging. You've probably seen this term used when talking about headers, but the same concept applies in the pipe.

I get the maximum scavenging effect if the gas velocity is high, so the pipe needs to be small. By maximizing the scavenging effect, I help to pull pulses out of the combustion chamber, which means the engine doesn't have to work as hard to do that.

This has the most effect when there's a bunch of time between pulses...in other words, at low rpm. As the revs rise, the pulsed flow becomes more and more like constant flow, and the scavenging effect is diminished.

So, at low rpm I need a small pipe to maximize scavenging, and at high rpm I need a big pipe to minimize pressure drop. My exhaust pipe can only be one size, so it's a compromise. For a given engine, one pipe diameter will make the most overall power (i.e., have the largest area under the curve on a dyno chart).

So, the loss of torque has nothing to do with backpressure, and everything to do with gas velocity. So you need exhaust components that are not restricive (manifolds/headers, mufflers) and that are sized correctly for your application.

To further dispel the "backpressure is necessary" theory, try this if you want. If you have access to a vehicle with open headers, make a block off plate that will bolt to the collector. This plate should have only a 1" hole in it for the exhaust to flow through. That will give you PLENTY of backpressure, and zero scavenging. Then you can report back on how much low end power it has.

The one exception to sizing an exhaust is for turbo cars. Since the turbo is in the exaust stream, the gas flow spinning the impeller tends to come out of the turbo with the pulses greatly diminished. In this case, you can get away with running a larger pipe than on an equivalent HP N/A engine because you can't take as much advantage of the scavenging effect.
Old Jul 26, 2010 | 12:32 PM
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Old Jul 27, 2010 | 10:56 PM
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i think its funny that there are more smileys than comments on this Thread
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 06:42 AM
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Hopefully the OP has read the comments and learned something about exhaust systems.
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by BenStoked
This.

"Back Pressure" will never help you make power, but scavenging does help on the lower end... when the car is N/A.
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 09:49 AM
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interesting find on backpressure. sometimes i like to re-educate myself once in awhile and i had forgotten how to explain what backpressure does.
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Rydicule
This.

"Back Pressure" will never help you make power, but scavenging does help on the lower end... when the car is N/A.
Lies. Stop trying to screw with the noob. Ask any muscle car guy, I know a guy with a mustang who says his backpressure helps his low end. Don't tell me muscle cars don't have torque.
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MorpheusZero
Lies. Stop trying to screw with the noob. Ask any muscle car guy, I know a guy with a mustang who says his backpressure helps his low end. Don't tell me muscle cars don't have torque.
haven't seen an educated argument for backpressure, only against it.
and i looked for a while.
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BenStoked
haven't seen an educated argument for backpressure, only against it.
and i looked for a while.
Educated arguments are for sissies. You've got to FEEL it, man!
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 09:00 PM
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You are ALL wrong, back pressure... scavenging... it all does NOTHING!

Stickers are the true secrets to power and douche bagged-ness is the ONLY way to increase torque.
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 09:09 PM
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Ask any ricer, any real ricer....
Old Jul 28, 2010 | 09:25 PM
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maxgtr2000,












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