How to properly adjust one's seat? Ergonomics, etc.
07-30-2010, 10:21 AM
#1
How to properly adjust one's seat? Ergonomics, etc.
Hey, so I've tried Googling this several different ways and couldn't find much on the topic, nor could I find anything on the Org.
Basically, in today's age of ergonomic everything, you'd think there would be plenty of write-ups on how to adjust your driver's seat for maximum comfort and support. Sure, a lot of it boils down to what "feels right" for you, but sometimes what feels right at first turns out to cause intense back pain later on. Some of the elements of proper driving position and whatnot have to be independent of feeling, though. Like sitting far enough away from the wheel to just be able to rest your wrists on the 12 o' clock position.
After purchasing my 2002 SE, I spent two hours (!) adjusting its seat, including test drives, because I simply could not sit comfortably. When you're sitting in a chair, part of your weight is held by your legs; when you're sitting in that funny car-driving position, almost all your weight is held by your lumbar/lower spine. When you're driving a six-speed and actively using both feet, all your weight is being held by your spine. A few months later, I'm having more lower back pain and driving my car just isn't helping. I know I could stand to strengthen my lower back, but it's not like I'm carrying around extra weight (6'2" and ~155 lbs) or anything to worsen the situation.
My question is, what do all the different adjustments do to improve comfort and support? I can raise and lower the seat, slide it forward and back, tilt the seat up and down, tilt the seat-back forward or rear-ward, and add or subtract lumbar support (fully maxed out still isn't enough, it seems), but what's the optimal position? How far should one have to extend their leg to press the clutch to the floor? What does raising the seat do or fix? What does adjusting the tilt do? Where, exactly, should the curve of the lumbar support fit my back?
Any help or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
Basically, in today's age of ergonomic everything, you'd think there would be plenty of write-ups on how to adjust your driver's seat for maximum comfort and support. Sure, a lot of it boils down to what "feels right" for you, but sometimes what feels right at first turns out to cause intense back pain later on. Some of the elements of proper driving position and whatnot have to be independent of feeling, though. Like sitting far enough away from the wheel to just be able to rest your wrists on the 12 o' clock position.
After purchasing my 2002 SE, I spent two hours (!) adjusting its seat, including test drives, because I simply could not sit comfortably. When you're sitting in a chair, part of your weight is held by your legs; when you're sitting in that funny car-driving position, almost all your weight is held by your lumbar/lower spine. When you're driving a six-speed and actively using both feet, all your weight is being held by your spine. A few months later, I'm having more lower back pain and driving my car just isn't helping. I know I could stand to strengthen my lower back, but it's not like I'm carrying around extra weight (6'2" and ~155 lbs) or anything to worsen the situation.
My question is, what do all the different adjustments do to improve comfort and support? I can raise and lower the seat, slide it forward and back, tilt the seat up and down, tilt the seat-back forward or rear-ward, and add or subtract lumbar support (fully maxed out still isn't enough, it seems), but what's the optimal position? How far should one have to extend their leg to press the clutch to the floor? What does raising the seat do or fix? What does adjusting the tilt do? Where, exactly, should the curve of the lumbar support fit my back?
Any help or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Eirik; 07-31-2010 at 07:46 AM.
08-02-2010, 01:12 PM
#2
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 16,033
Seriously...
Everybodys body is different.
What feels right for you, may not for another person of the same build.
It's what makes us individules.
This thread makes no sense.
Everybodys body is different.
What feels right for you, may not for another person of the same build.
It's what makes us individules.
This thread makes no sense.
08-03-2010, 11:12 AM
#5
I find it the most comfy when the seat is slightly tilted back while driving, but I am not that tall and so I have to strain my neck to see over the steering wheel haha.
But having the seat up more towards a 90 degree angle helps my neck but hurts my back more.
But having the seat up more towards a 90 degree angle helps my neck but hurts my back more.
08-03-2010, 12:33 PM
#6
There's been lotsa ergonomics studies done. I only payed attention to the ones referring to racing seating positions. BTW, did you know that Nissan has a patent on the front lip of your seat? They found that elevating the knee area helps the driver respond faster. It somehow pre-tensions the nerves and muscles so you get faster reflexes.
Which makes me wonder... isn't that called "bucket seats"??? How did Nissan get a patent on that?!
Anyways, will post research studies on seating positions in the coming week. I'm working on another Nissan special project to compliment the lanyards in my sig.
Dr J
Which makes me wonder... isn't that called "bucket seats"??? How did Nissan get a patent on that?!
Anyways, will post research studies on seating positions in the coming week. I'm working on another Nissan special project to compliment the lanyards in my sig.
Dr J
08-03-2010, 08:07 PM
#7
Like I said, I couldn't find anything even remotely scientific on this topic, so anything you could post would be very useful to me. I did see one or two videos on YouTube concerning racing positions, but that is absolutely no help for driving for more than ten minutes!
NJMax: Again, ergonomics, as a concept, transcends individual body types. If we sat on benches with no fiddly *****, then we'd all suffer the same. All the controls we're given allow us to adjust the seat to support our bodies, but each one of those controls has a specific reason for existing--reasons I can't discern and am extremely interested in learning.
NJMax: Again, ergonomics, as a concept, transcends individual body types. If we sat on benches with no fiddly *****, then we'd all suffer the same. All the controls we're given allow us to adjust the seat to support our bodies, but each one of those controls has a specific reason for existing--reasons I can't discern and am extremely interested in learning.
08-04-2010, 07:06 PM
#8
Wow! I am 6ft ~160lbs we have similar body type and I can NEVER get truly comfortable in my max. I've always wanted to make a thread on the subject but I am glad you did. Will subscribe and see what the orgers can come up with. I usually first try to set up my distance from the clutch and see how it feels to engage the clutch as well as braking + throttle. It's kind of weird a good clutch position isn't the best position for brakes/throttle and vice versa.
08-04-2010, 09:47 PM
#9
How's this -
1) fore/aft - extend arm directly in front, wrist falls onto steering wheel top
2) legs slightly bent for pedals, minor changes from #1 fore-back for feel, aim for slight leg angle with clutch fully depressed
3) height raised high leaving head/helmet clearance and gauges still visible
4) back tilt between 60-72deg, shoulders in solid contact with seat back
5) bottom tilt to comfort with just slight pressure upwards
6) (4th gen racer option-pull headrest out, and flip 180deg for more helmet room)
1) fore/aft - extend arm directly in front, wrist falls onto steering wheel top
2) legs slightly bent for pedals, minor changes from #1 fore-back for feel, aim for slight leg angle with clutch fully depressed
3) height raised high leaving head/helmet clearance and gauges still visible
4) back tilt between 60-72deg, shoulders in solid contact with seat back
5) bottom tilt to comfort with just slight pressure upwards
6) (4th gen racer option-pull headrest out, and flip 180deg for more helmet room)
08-04-2010, 10:54 PM
#10
Well a Google Scholar search for the 2 research articles I read aren't coming up, I'll hafta dig up some old magazines.
Based off experience and what was taught in racing school, follows a lot of what BeJay1 said.
Since most pedal distances aren't adjustable, begin with fore-aft seating position. Put seatback to vertical, then notch back 2 notches, or hold power seat for 2 sec. That should be ~15deg from vertical. Skoot your butt as far back into the seat as possible. Move seat forward, press clutch down as you normally would, then start sliding the seat back until your knee almost lock out. Should be ~15deg bend in your knee. A goniometer is very helpful here. I use it. (I also use an inclinometer to measure backrest angle too).
2) Next is extending the seat support under the knee. I know most BMW have it, but I've never been in a Maxima with this. It should be just under the medial muscle bulge of the quad muscle. Nissan has a patent on this. Just sit in a GT-R, and take note how behind the knee feels comfortable yet responsive.
3) Seat height as BEJAY1 states. I find that it's dependent on the height of the windshield, as you wanna see as far out as possible, so being higher is better, within reason and safety.
4) Seat tilt, which's the elevation of the front of the seat, should be supportive of the thigh, and up to your comfort. I never found any research or studies on this. You're on your own.
5) Seatback angle... ~15deg for combo of comfort, safety, and fatigue. The more alert you need to be, the more vertical it should be. When fitting my patients, I've found up to 25deg for heavyset folk. More than 30deg won't allow the shoulder seatbelt to function properly... You're gonna submarine if you hit the car in front of you, or you're gonna hyper extend and whiplash your neck if you're struck from behind.
Now here's the hardest part, because of the lack of adjustability in most cars: Arm position. BEJAY1's on the dot, about being able to flex the wrist over the top of the steering wheel. When assuming the 10-and-2 hand positions, elbows should be 90deg bent. Slightly straighter for comfort and long drives, Slightly more bent for active steering such as drifting, rallying, and stuntdriving. Note that for those 3 driving styles, you're usually going to grip below horizontal, 8pm and 4pm.
For daily driving, you're gonna hafta experiment with tilt and telescope to get the wrist over the top, and secondarily elbows at 90. And here's where it sucks for me, being 6'1"... shift levers are never in the right place!!! Luckily for newer maximas, you guys don't hafta shift, thanks to automatic tranny's. For everybody else, adjustable short throw shifters might help you find a good position.
Added: Top of headrest needs to be above the top of the ears. There's debate on this, some say level with the top of the ear, some say the rear protrusion of the skull should be supported by the headrest. Headrest too low, you get whiplash, headrest too high, you hyper-flex the cervical joints. I'd say the former is worse.
Will dig up my old periodicals and find the numbers and angles. Might take a while. Sorry.
Dr J
Based off experience and what was taught in racing school, follows a lot of what BeJay1 said.
Since most pedal distances aren't adjustable, begin with fore-aft seating position. Put seatback to vertical, then notch back 2 notches, or hold power seat for 2 sec. That should be ~15deg from vertical. Skoot your butt as far back into the seat as possible. Move seat forward, press clutch down as you normally would, then start sliding the seat back until your knee almost lock out. Should be ~15deg bend in your knee. A goniometer is very helpful here. I use it. (I also use an inclinometer to measure backrest angle too).
2) Next is extending the seat support under the knee. I know most BMW have it, but I've never been in a Maxima with this. It should be just under the medial muscle bulge of the quad muscle. Nissan has a patent on this. Just sit in a GT-R, and take note how behind the knee feels comfortable yet responsive.
3) Seat height as BEJAY1 states. I find that it's dependent on the height of the windshield, as you wanna see as far out as possible, so being higher is better, within reason and safety.
4) Seat tilt, which's the elevation of the front of the seat, should be supportive of the thigh, and up to your comfort. I never found any research or studies on this. You're on your own.
5) Seatback angle... ~15deg for combo of comfort, safety, and fatigue. The more alert you need to be, the more vertical it should be. When fitting my patients, I've found up to 25deg for heavyset folk. More than 30deg won't allow the shoulder seatbelt to function properly... You're gonna submarine if you hit the car in front of you, or you're gonna hyper extend and whiplash your neck if you're struck from behind.
Now here's the hardest part, because of the lack of adjustability in most cars: Arm position. BEJAY1's on the dot, about being able to flex the wrist over the top of the steering wheel. When assuming the 10-and-2 hand positions, elbows should be 90deg bent. Slightly straighter for comfort and long drives, Slightly more bent for active steering such as drifting, rallying, and stuntdriving. Note that for those 3 driving styles, you're usually going to grip below horizontal, 8pm and 4pm.
For daily driving, you're gonna hafta experiment with tilt and telescope to get the wrist over the top, and secondarily elbows at 90. And here's where it sucks for me, being 6'1"... shift levers are never in the right place!!! Luckily for newer maximas, you guys don't hafta shift, thanks to automatic tranny's. For everybody else, adjustable short throw shifters might help you find a good position.
Added: Top of headrest needs to be above the top of the ears. There's debate on this, some say level with the top of the ear, some say the rear protrusion of the skull should be supported by the headrest. Headrest too low, you get whiplash, headrest too high, you hyper-flex the cervical joints. I'd say the former is worse.
Will dig up my old periodicals and find the numbers and angles. Might take a while. Sorry.
Dr J
Last edited by ThurzNite; 08-04-2010 at 10:59 PM.
08-04-2010, 11:53 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Stone Mountain, Georgia
Posts: 339
I think this thread is really interesting. I knew that you should be seated far enough away from the wheel to rest your wrist at the 12 o'clock position, but I'm curious as to what else should be done for maximum control and safety.
Subscribed.
Subscribed.
08-05-2010, 10:21 AM
#12
personally, 6'0" I have my seat all the way back because of my knees hitting the wheel.
Also because you're supposed to be as far back from the airbag as possible.
Seat all the way down so I don't hit my head.
I believe I tilted the front of the seat a notch for more leg support.
Wheel all the way out and lowered to where I can just see the top of the speedometer.
Wheel is just above my legs then.
I adjusted the seatback so I can reach the wheel with my shoulders still touching since reaching forward on long drives causes me shoulder fatigue.
Also try to take notice if my posture/head is hunching over or more upward to prevent neck pain.
I went with comfort with the lumbar... but it depresses whenever I accelerate and pops back once letting go of the throttle. Dealer deny this happening. Replaced it once since I was adamant mine was tilted horizontally, yet the new one still depresses.
I tilted the head rest all the way forward and it touches ear level if i lean my head back.
always wondered if you're supposed to be resting your head, but that was never comfortable. I know it is an active restraint for me and will move forward if needed anyway.
Also because you're supposed to be as far back from the airbag as possible.
Seat all the way down so I don't hit my head.
I believe I tilted the front of the seat a notch for more leg support.
Wheel all the way out and lowered to where I can just see the top of the speedometer.
Wheel is just above my legs then.
I adjusted the seatback so I can reach the wheel with my shoulders still touching since reaching forward on long drives causes me shoulder fatigue.
Also try to take notice if my posture/head is hunching over or more upward to prevent neck pain.
I went with comfort with the lumbar... but it depresses whenever I accelerate and pops back once letting go of the throttle. Dealer deny this happening. Replaced it once since I was adamant mine was tilted horizontally, yet the new one still depresses.
I tilted the head rest all the way forward and it touches ear level if i lean my head back.
always wondered if you're supposed to be resting your head, but that was never comfortable. I know it is an active restraint for me and will move forward if needed anyway.
08-05-2010, 10:45 AM
#13
Edit: Looks like you and I are both right. Early generation airbags were too powerful. Newer ones don't smack you as hard. But more belt-less idiots are dieing.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...rotection.html
At least Maxima's don't send Shrapnel to you: http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...-acura-tl.html
Ok found the article, however it's dated 2008. So keep that in mind. They recommend 10inches from steering to sternum: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...view/index.htm
Dr J
Last edited by ThurzNite; 08-05-2010 at 10:54 AM.
08-05-2010, 06:22 PM
#14
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Naples, Florida
Posts: 35
This is a pretty interesting thread. I am 6'3" and weigh 215 pounds. The Maxima is one of the most comfortable cars I've owned. As others have stated individual preference plays a huge role. I have my drivers seat extended all the way back with the seatback tilted slightly back as well. My headrest is extended about 2 inches and I prefer my steering wheel tilted down so that it rests just over the top of the gauges and extended almost all the way out. This gives me easy access to all the controls and maximum comfort. The only setting I adjust from time to time would be the lumbar support. The only thing I really wish I had on my Max was the extension on the drivers seat for under the leg/knee support. I had this on a Mustang GT I had years ago and it was fantastic on long trips. Since I only have the cloth seats that come standard on my S I'll have to do without.
08-10-2010, 09:15 AM
#15
From my understanding, six generation Maximas had more seat support/comfort than 5.5 gens. I would assume that the newest, seventh generation Maximas would be extremely comfortable, given the increase in price (even adjusted for inflation) over previous generations. Good to hear your brand-new car is extremely comfortable! I would pity you if you bought something that expensive only to find it strains your back. =/
BeJay & Dr J: Cool, I'll write that stuff down and see if the scientific method for seat adjustment helps me at all. I completely forgot that Google Scholar existed, doh! My problem with finding information on the subject is my inability to word the search to omit the phrase "car seat" as that, invariably, presents links on strapping in an infant's car seat.
Personally, the 5.5th gen cars need one more click to adjust the steering wheel tilt up and/or the ability to telescope. If it could go up another click, just one!, my knees wouldn't hit it on the way up from the clutch pedal. I've just learned how to bend my left leg sideways so the piston action clears the wheel by a hair. My '01 Taurus had a much wider range of steering wheel positions aaaaand adjustable pedals aaaaaand traction control, all for $12K fewer monies than the Maxima. What were you doing, Nissan? =(
Oh, and a bucket seat is simply any car seat that's not a bench. =P
BeJay & Dr J: Cool, I'll write that stuff down and see if the scientific method for seat adjustment helps me at all. I completely forgot that Google Scholar existed, doh! My problem with finding information on the subject is my inability to word the search to omit the phrase "car seat" as that, invariably, presents links on strapping in an infant's car seat.
Personally, the 5.5th gen cars need one more click to adjust the steering wheel tilt up and/or the ability to telescope. If it could go up another click, just one!, my knees wouldn't hit it on the way up from the clutch pedal. I've just learned how to bend my left leg sideways so the piston action clears the wheel by a hair. My '01 Taurus had a much wider range of steering wheel positions aaaaand adjustable pedals aaaaaand traction control, all for $12K fewer monies than the Maxima. What were you doing, Nissan? =(
Oh, and a bucket seat is simply any car seat that's not a bench. =P
08-12-2010, 09:37 AM
#17
Hey. Dr. J, can you add your thoughts on the lumbar adjustment? Where on your lower back should the spring be pressing?
To make small adjustments continually, you have to have the proper baseline to start, yeah?
To make small adjustments continually, you have to have the proper baseline to start, yeah?
08-12-2010, 12:13 PM
#18
Put your hands on your back and find the tops of the iliac crests. The meat of the lumbar support should be at that level.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
There's a new Maxima product that'll address the lumbar situation. It'll complement the lanyards I'm selling in my sig.
Dr J
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
There's a new Maxima product that'll address the lumbar situation. It'll complement the lanyards I'm selling in my sig.
Dr J
Last edited by ThurzNite; 08-12-2010 at 12:16 PM.
05-19-2014, 10:10 AM
#19
Night falls and the day breaks. Four years pass (!) and I'm back to this thread through, ironically, Googling.
I never did thank you Dr. J! Your detailed writing did, indeed, help me cope with driving the '02 Maxima. In fact, I'm going to drag my laptop out to my car this afternoon and do a full reset of the seating position to see if I've drifted away from the ideal arrangement.
ThurzNite nee Dr. J, what's this mystical Maxima product you spoke of? I'm now starting to think that stick-shift Nissans with a sunroof simply can't support tall people... My '05 Max has been even less comfortable than my '02 was!
The extra steering wheel adjustments are a God-send, for sure, but the seat itself somehow puts all the stress on my lumbar spine without offering any support. Super depressing.
I even went so far as to buy a new (sitting on a shelf in a warehouse since its manufacturing in October 2008) OEM seat cushion for the Max (~$100 + $130 install) thinking that the previous owners put a hurting on it. The new cushion is noticeably softer and the (admittedly minimal) side bolstering on the cushion itself is no longer flattened with age/fat people, but it doesn't seem to be helping my back any.
It seems that, besides there not being enough headroom to get the proper angle for your knees, that the seat pan is too short.
I wish I could drive to wherever you are and get properly fitted, but I don't know if my spine could make it.
6'2" and 180 lbs* and being pained by a sedan the size of a minivan? That's not right.
Anyone got some G35/37 sport seats with adjustable thigh support they want to sell me? =/
*Got married in December of 2010. Guess the eating's a lot better now! (Or, you know, working a desk job vs a blue-collar job)
Edit: Okay, played with the seat settings again and measure a bunch of seats to get a handle on what might be different with the Max's driver's seat versus the rear passenger buckets, which are nothing but heavenly. I think the front seats are a little too narrow, so your butt doesn't correctly fit on the seat pan. The front seats are something like 2" more narrow at the back of the seat pan versus the rear buckets! But, more importantly, I experimented with seat height and discovered that the reason my spine hurts so much is that the seats are too low to adequately support my weight.
If I raise the front tilt up, it definitely feels more comfortable... but my head presses, firmly, against the ceiling.
So maybe it's not the seat necessarily (though the seatback is certainly too short to support my shoulders), but simply that the sunroof eats too much of the car's headroom, forcing my seat to be lower than my body needs.
I never did thank you Dr. J! Your detailed writing did, indeed, help me cope with driving the '02 Maxima. In fact, I'm going to drag my laptop out to my car this afternoon and do a full reset of the seating position to see if I've drifted away from the ideal arrangement.
ThurzNite nee Dr. J, what's this mystical Maxima product you spoke of? I'm now starting to think that stick-shift Nissans with a sunroof simply can't support tall people... My '05 Max has been even less comfortable than my '02 was!
The extra steering wheel adjustments are a God-send, for sure, but the seat itself somehow puts all the stress on my lumbar spine without offering any support. Super depressing.
I even went so far as to buy a new (sitting on a shelf in a warehouse since its manufacturing in October 2008) OEM seat cushion for the Max (~$100 + $130 install) thinking that the previous owners put a hurting on it. The new cushion is noticeably softer and the (admittedly minimal) side bolstering on the cushion itself is no longer flattened with age/fat people, but it doesn't seem to be helping my back any.
It seems that, besides there not being enough headroom to get the proper angle for your knees, that the seat pan is too short.
I wish I could drive to wherever you are and get properly fitted, but I don't know if my spine could make it.
6'2" and 180 lbs* and being pained by a sedan the size of a minivan? That's not right.Anyone got some G35/37 sport seats with adjustable thigh support they want to sell me? =/
*Got married in December of 2010. Guess the eating's a lot better now! (Or, you know, working a desk job vs a blue-collar job)
Edit: Okay, played with the seat settings again and measure a bunch of seats to get a handle on what might be different with the Max's driver's seat versus the rear passenger buckets, which are nothing but heavenly. I think the front seats are a little too narrow, so your butt doesn't correctly fit on the seat pan. The front seats are something like 2" more narrow at the back of the seat pan versus the rear buckets! But, more importantly, I experimented with seat height and discovered that the reason my spine hurts so much is that the seats are too low to adequately support my weight.
If I raise the front tilt up, it definitely feels more comfortable... but my head presses, firmly, against the ceiling.
So maybe it's not the seat necessarily (though the seatback is certainly too short to support my shoulders), but simply that the sunroof eats too much of the car's headroom, forcing my seat to be lower than my body needs.
Last edited by Eirik; 05-21-2014 at 08:38 AM.
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