karguy

In August 1998 I started converting the family cars to AMSOIL S2000
0W-30 synthetic oil. This was done after many months of research on oils, oil filters and air filters. I used their Engine Oil Flush prior to converting to synthetics (AMSOIL recommendation). I converted the following cars last year - 96 Honda Civic, 97 Maxima SE, 97 Maxima GLE, 97 I30, 98 Civic EX (VTEC) and a 2000 Nissan Altima. The cars have had no problems since conversion, all have quieted down and perform better (smoother). I installed AMSOIL Super Duty Oil Filter (SDF) on each car. I also installed an AMSOIL 2 Stage Air Filter on the I30 and 98 Civic. Testing has shown this filter to be superior to K&N filters. You can check this out at WWW.AMSOIL.COM
The gas milage on these 2 cars increased 8% to 10%. All cars converted experience MPG increases. AMSOIL's claim to improved milage is true! It cost me $50 to convert each car but this includes cost of oil and 2 filters which will last 12 months or 35,000 miles. Cost per year for oil and filters in subsequent years will $35 since I have switched to Baldwin filters (they make AMSOIL Oil FILTER). You can do the math on $$ savings on oil and oil filters. My plan is to convert I30 To AMSOIL's Synthetic ATF in near future. No problems to date, better milage and improved performance performance on all converted cars. No!! I am not associated with AMSOIL in any manner. I get my oil off eBay for about $ 5.00 Qt. including shipping. Be well!!!!

karguy

Sorry, I started converting the cars in 2001 not 1998. That is what I get for posting in the middle of the night! Be well!!!!

MaxDriver98

You change your oil every 35,000 miles??

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

It's good to see a post like this every once in a while from somebody not associated with the company.

got rice?

iTrader: (2)

yep yep, initial costs are more but in the long run you save money. I'm an Amsoil ***** for life!

ftb87

Are you doing any oil analysis? If not then your asking for big trouble.

If you change your oil every 35k + 2 filter + make up oil + 2 oil analysis...then what is your total cost?

Would it make sence to just use an API certified oil, change every 3k and have the extra assurances that I have good clean oil in my auto?

Frank

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

If you want to throw that kind of money away; whatever makes you sleep at night.

As far as cost is concerned, let's consider this:

You put 15,000 miles/year on the car, the average distance.

If you change your oil every 3K and use Mobil 1. You can buy the Mobil 1 for $4/ quart and a Mobil 1 filter for $10. Using 5 quarts per oil change, you will spend $150.


If you use Amsoil at full retail at $5.70 and use the same Mobil 1 filter, but "extend" the intervals to 5K instead, you will spend $115.50. YOU SAVE $34.50

If you use Amsoil and "extend" the drain interval to 7500 miles, you spend $77 and save $73.

Now factor into the equation that I have been offering Amsoil motor oils, transmission fluids and filter to orgy members for my cost. You now save even more money and use a better product.

As for drain intervals:

A drain interval of 5K or 7500 miles is not unreasonable or even long by Amsoil's standards, but if you wanted to extend the drain interval beyond 7500, oil analysis should be used.

For arguments sake, let's say you are a die hard "I only change my oil every 3K" type of guy. You decide to try to extend your drain interval to the incredibly huge number of 5K in the example above. Just to be on the safe side, you send in a sample of your oil to Blackstone Labs, another oil analyis company, but one who is independent of the one Amsoil uses. Blackstone charges you $18 for this service. You STILL save $16.50 and learned at 5K your oil was still as good as new. Even if you stick with the 5K drain interval you continue to save money. How can you go wrong here? You used a better oil, protected your car, gave yourself peace of mind and saved money.

Like I said above, whatever makes you sleep at night.

RussMaxManiac

I would like to recommend changing it at 20k at the most. Tests shown on a few cars the oil started to loose its protection ability around 20k in stop n go and highway driving. 35k is way to much.

ftb87

Karguy,

please name all of the Amsoils approved by API? BTW I run 5-30 in my maxima (have and since 10k, needed to break in the engine) and I like synthetic oil (mobil one, change every 5k and I use a wix filter, cost $20 per oil change).

if I ever had a engine failure and they find out that I used amsoil, my warantee would be void (not approved by API...read your manual). And no, I don't want to go through the legal hassel to prove amsoil is just as good (they should do that if their oil is so great).

I'm not here to bash amsoil....I just tired of hearing how great they are (so that some one on top of the pyrmid gets rich). Why can't you purchase this product at any parts store?

Frank

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

FT87

Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: Feb. 2002
Posted: Feb. 08 2002,6:31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friends.....

I posted this on another AMSOIL message board earlier as a response to the API question. In case you didn't catch that discussion here is the Companies position on the API certification issue. Is API important? Yes, for sub one dollar oils. For premium synthetics that would blow away the tests, not really. Remember cheap $.88 Wal-Mart oil passes API, they set pretty low standards for passing the tests. Ronbo


AMSOIL API Licensing

Q. Why aren't all AMSOIL motor oils API licensed

A. Good question. AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue. Let us address API licensing in depth, as well as the issue of warranties. Some AMSOIL motor oils are API licensed, some are not. If you're concerned about your warranty and feel pressures to use an API licensed oil, even after reading this answer, then the 5W-30 (XLF) or 10W-30 (XLT) XL-7500 or our 15W-40 (PCO) API licensed oils should be your choice. If you are looking for an alternative to frequent oil changes or just want the best performing oil for your car, then one of our top tier non-API licensed synthetic oils are for you. Read on, and decide for yourself.

API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?

An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies. The current specification is SJ/GF-2, and in July 2001 the first use of SL/GF-3 will begin.

Costs

The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from 125 thousand to 300 thousand, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to 275 thousand to 500 thousand for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for 825 per year for non-members and 625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.

Who Licenses What Formulas?

Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.

Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula

API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.

Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers. Click HERE for more information about Group I through Group V basestocks.

There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil.

Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula.

Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas

Phosphorous content - .10% maximum
(API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only)

NOACK volatility - 15% maximum

Click HERE for an explanation of NOACK Volatility

The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.

The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.

AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.

Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not

1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.

2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

FT87 here is some more I just got off the top of my head:

The rest:

Warranties And API Licensed Motor Oils

Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement. Mail to:

AMSOIL INC.
Attention: Technical Services Department
AMSOIL Building
Superior, WI 54880

or e-mail to tech@amsoil.com.

They will almost never put it in writing, but if they do, please send us a copy of that, too. Either way, we will send them a letter informing them cease the intimidation of our customers. Click HERE to read a sample letter.

Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and our insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved. Click HERE to see the AMSOIL Limited Warranty.

How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?

First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.

We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.

AMSOIL INC.'s products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period.

Conclusion

AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want.

AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards.

API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils. For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

this again?!!? it's starting to sound like a broken record.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=80599

And Dan yes, THIS again. But then again, if search was used........oh well

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

Jeff already posted all the good stuff on API certification and warranties. I'm not going to list ALL the API approved oils available from Amsoil, but the XL7500 series is API approved and available in 5W-30.

davis4005

I'm sticking with a Nissan Filter, and Vavoline 10W-30 every 3,000 miles. Even if it's synthetic you can't go for 20,000 because the metal, carbon, and any other things that get into the engine are not dissolved by the synthetic oil. Plus I enjoy changing my oil

AltyPaul

I think AMSOIL and the other high quality oils are worth the mention. Let me throw this in the equation though. I changed the oil my wife's car for $8.40 this past weekend. (Shell API CERTIFIED MARK, SL Grade and oil filter) If you factor that I change the oil every 4000 miles, my cost per 15,000 miles is $33.60. That's half the AMSOIL solution. A study done by Consumer Reports of NYC taxi cabs shows that regular dino oil can handle 6000 miles easy between changes. http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.shtml

karguy

Iwas a mrmber of the 3000 mile 3 month club for over 40 years before I switched to AMSOIL. I had good results, 2 cars that went over 200,000 miles without ever having the head removed. The 1989 Toyota Celica is almost at 250,000 miles, is driven daily and still doesn't
burn oil. I just believe that the synthetic technology is such that it makes sense to evaluate state of the art technologies. Also I would like OPEC to see if there is any food value in their oil when they try to eat it! My next step is to install an AMSOIL Remote Bypass kit and only change oil when necessary as indicated by scheduled engine oil analysis. This will be done to I30 when I figure out where to put the filter. There are many certified testimonials where this has been done on big rig diesel trucks and wear on the engines was a fraction of that expected for similar vehicles using dino oil. Check WWW.AMSOIL.COM for info on this. I know a lot of you like to work (tinker) on cars and I am one, however I would like to reduce oil related maintenance to a minimum! Be well!!!! Long live the United States to hell with OPEC!!!!!

AltyPaul

If you really want to screw OPEC, get a hybrid car. The amount of oil we use for lubrication is much smaller than our fuel oil consumption.

My father has always changed his dino oil every 3000-4000 miles. All of his engines had well over 200,000 miles on them. One V6 (Oldsmobile 3.8) he had had close to 300,000 miles on it, when he gave it to me. He's never used synthetic. He was pretty hard on his cars too.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Synthetics are superior to regular oil in every single area. That taxi cab test was inconclusive at best.

AltyPaul

I disagree. I test of 75 taxi cabs of 4.5 million miles, with 60,000 miles on each engine, which including tearing down their engines, showed that there was no measurable difference among oil brands, including synthetic. They do go onto say though... "worth considering for extreme driving conditions high ambient temperatures and high engine load or very cold temperatures." If you are in that category, I think it's a wise investment.

I currently use synthetic in my car, but I'm probably going back to dino oil. I'm going to submit samples for oil analysis.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

This article contradicts yours. Your test only mentions "no measurable difference". That is HIGHLY subjective.

http://mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

iwannabmw

iTrader: (3)

I swear there is taxicab test out there that proved the exact opposite of the CR test, I just can't find it right now.

When it comes to things automotive, I could care less what CR has to say. Their opinions are so generalized and mainstream as to be useless for my purposes. I mean they crucified the Isuzu Trooper because it had a tendency to get tippy if a DOUBLE lane change was initiated at 40 mph. Hello! Of course it's tippy, its a freakin truck with a high center of gravity. Why not boil water, stick your hand in it and complain that it's hot.

As far as the taxicab test goes, those things are pretty much never shut off. If most wear occurs at startup of course the wear rates will be low for the test. Whatever.

bill99gxe

iTrader: (1)

there seems to still be much ignorance to conquer.........how disappointing.....

bill99gxe

iTrader: (1)

Russ,

That is a generalization and probably inaccurate, as that particular result was on a Honda V-6 with the standard Amsoil synthetic. The Series 2000 synthetic has a different additive package that allows for 1 year/35k change intervals. A mistake by me was made in that particular interval as well, as I didn't change the filter at the correct time (6 months) as recommended by Amsoil.


However, it does prove that their recommendations should be followed.

bill99gxe

iTrader: (1)

CAN'T go for 20,000?

I'm very tempted to drive 25k in a year just to prove that statement incorrect. Right now, my 99 is recommended by Blackstone to go 17k. Care to change your mind or do you prefer to keep your head in the sand?


If you would like to look around and see what's happening in the real world, here's a useful link:


http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....hreadid=100060