With all the recent talk of the new SSR turbo kit, I've got to wondering why noone has gone the NA route (i.e. cams, headers, ecu, etc).

Due to the substantial cost (no I'm not cheap, just realistic) associated with turbocharging our cars, I'd like to go NA. Does anyone have any experience with the new cams (Wolfe, Toda) for the VQ35?

Doug

 

i know they are $$$$$$$

 

SGP Racing 11.5:1 Forged Piston Set for the VQ35DE
Sale price: $1,175.00

SGP Racing Titanium Retainer Set for the VQ35DE
Sale price: $495.00

Tomei 256 x 10.22mm Camshaft Set for the
Sale price: $1,200.00

SGP/ARP Head and Main Studs for VQ35DE
Sale price: $399.95

SGP Racing / Pauter Forged Rod Set for the VQ35DE
Sale price: $1,175.00

Hotshot headers
Sale Price: $599.95

TOTAL: $5044.90 not including shipping

http://store.yahoo.com/sgpracing-sto...ctronics4.html

 

Going either way is going to be expensive as hell. I "think" the N/A way would be a better long term deal (reliability), but there's no doubt that a T/C'ed VQ35 would totally kick **** in the performance catagorey...

 

That's what I needed to know. I wasn't sure what it would cost to go the N/A route. The N/A route still appeals to me more because, as Quicksilver stated, it has to be a better long-term reliability answer as opposed to t/c'ing.
My other question would be what kind of gains would these N/A mods yield? I've been trying to get up to speed as to what the 350z guys have been doing on the N/A front, but I keep seeing more and more people going the forced induction route.

 

more ppl go that route cause for relatively the same amount of money can get you more hp cause all you have to do if up the boost

if that $5000 in NA mods got you lets say 280-300 whp, its going to be hard to extract any more power from that setup. Whereas turbo wise, if you have engine mgnt and supply the proper fuel setup you can up the boost for more hp

people that have the money to spend $5000 on NA setup would much rather go for a $5500-$6000 turbo setup. 10psi on a VQ35de will be more than enough for the average driver (5psi gets 340hp at the crank)

 

Larrio,
All very valid points. Now, let's throw this into the mix... I drive an auto. Dollar for Dollar, I'm thinking that my $5K would be better spent going N/A. After beefing up the tranny to handle the power potential that the turbo offers, you start to dive deeply into the realm of diminishing returns (for your dollar that is).
I love my Max, I do, but before I sink over $10k into it, I'd be driving something else. I still haven't convinced myself that I want to go all out on the N/A side. However, I do like to go against the grain and an all motor Max would be great.

 

Also figure in a few thousand to install those expensive internals. There's a cost of installing a turbo system but it's much easier(relatively).

 

honestly, for me its more than just ***** out straight line acceleration. So most likely my plans are only NA and at most SC route.

I plan to start taking up autocrossing and track days with my maxima and turbo boost is not very friendly half way powering out of a turn in a fwd car.

But with you 3.5 motor, its alot easier to be satisfied with NA build due to the useable torque in your power band for avg/spirited/track driving. A technosquare ECU, headers, and intake/exhaust will yield you 215-225 hp to the wheels and globs of torque (look at blubyu2k2).

like i always say, it depends on your priorities.

 

The N/A route is just more appealing to me. Sure, I'd love to have a turbocharged vehicle, but I'll wait until I can afford the 911
Install costs either way aren't too much of a concern as I have a shop here (not even a performance shop) that won't bend me over too far on labor.

As for Matt (blubyu2k2), I've actually been speaking with him today via PMs. We'll hook up some time soon. I'm really interested in seeing what his car is capable of as it currently sits.

 

I disagree NA is more reliable ONCE you open her up for internals and bump compression, which is going to require a stand-alone ECU.

Also, you realize with 11.5:1 CR, you're going to ALWAYS be running 100+octane, right? I'm not sure how many miles you drive, but $5+/gallon can add up quick and it's typically hard to find. Take roadtrips often? Good luck finding 100+octane.

With a turbo intercooled and moderate boost, you'll have MORE power then the NA ever will and you don't have to wring out all the RPMs that a HP NA engine requires. RPM vs RPM, the NA must spin faster, which again wears on the engine.

A turbo is off when you're not boosting, so you're basically NA and the ECU is happy controlling everything.

Don't get me wrong, a NA 350whp Max(if possible) would be AWESOME, but I highly doubt it would be near as reliable as a factory put together engine with a turbo and moderate boost easily laying down the same 350whp.

 

Very, very valid points to consider. The decision process continues.

 

just meet up with blubyu2k2 and you'll see that you don't need 300 whp to be happy. The 3.5 has a very nice useable torque range at 240-250 whp. So just do intake/headers/ecu/exhaust and at most cams and you'll be fine for an auto

i'll be happy if i can put down 220 whp with my 3.0. A local org 5spd member with intake/udp/y-pipe/exhaust put down 205 whp and his car is freakishly fast already (beat a 4th gen auto SC ).

 

Before I do anything, I'll be meeting up with Matt.

 

That's not entirely correct. You could easily run 93 octane with 11.5:1 compression pistons, but it would require an ECU program that is really tuned well (with good timing control and also oversized injectors). Honda runs 11.1:1 CR pistons in it's S2000 and there are no problems with that setup. Also, the BMW M5 and M3 run 11:1 and 11.5:1 CR, respectively. Hell, I ran 12:1 CR pistons in my '68 GTO and it never saw anything but crappy 91/92 octane out in Southern CA. Never had any detonation problems with it (still had to run lead additive, though...).

I think once the ECU problems are completely solved, running high power N/A VQ35's would be the most reliable and cheapest way to go. You could easily acheive 350 crank HP with our 2002-2003 5th Gen (or maybe up to a maximum of 120 hp/liter displacement). Tuning high CR N/A engines isn't much different than tuning T/C'ed engines. Also, alcohol injection would solve any issues with the N/A engine as well...

 

Show me the way then, because a factory engine DESIGNED for 11+:1 CR running on pump gas has MUCH much more done to it to prevent detonation, like valve overlap, fast-burn head designs, super cooled heads, etc. Our VQ35s are not, so retarding the timing would *KILL* performance. Typically for every 10-degrees you retard timing, you lose 5-6% torque output vs. 1-2% by lowering the compression. So, take that the opposite way, increase compression, and with ~11% higher CR, you'll need to lose 55-66% of torque output by retarding timing to compensate!!!!

Trust me, 11.5:1 isnt' likely on pump gas for an engine that wasn't designed for it NO MATTER what you do with timing. Yeah, you can drop dynamic CR with cam overlap, but what's that buy ya?

ECU problems solved? I'm not talking about the open-loop maps TS tweaks here. They can't modify closed-loop maps, so that means stand-alone and building your own from scratch. You ready for that? Most couldn't do it, that's something that takes TONS of dyno runs and somebody with LOTS of experience or several motors to learn with(read blow up).

350Z guys are pushing 300whp NA, so 350 crank is possible. However, they are struggling and learning painfully.

Alcohol injection isn't going to solve 11:5:1 CR daily driven, because you'd never be able to carry enough to run 100% of the time. Alcohol/water injection is a SUPPLEMENT during high boost/high prone detonation times, not a crutch you can rely on 100% of the time as you're suggesting.

 

Actually, using Ray Halls' calculator:
http://www.turbofast.com.au/TFcompB.html

Stock 10.3:1 VQ35 recommended fuel is 92.2-octane
SGP 11.5:1 VQ35 recommended fuel is 95.3-octane.

So, maybe you wouldn't need 100+octane and 93-octane plus some timing retard might be a resonable trade-off.

 

The thing that's probably going to kill my dreams of going all motor will be the ecu tuning. Here in upstate SC, I don't know of a shop that would have the ***** to take on the task of tuning the engine.
I'm just in the very preliminary stages, trying to make up my mind. So, I've got plenty of time to do research.
Thanks to all that have contributed. Please continue. This type of discussion is what makes the org. great

 

Ice, I have to disagree with you, those calculations are taking into account FI vehicles where not only is the air pre-pressurized prior to compression, it is also often super heated.

Our own Y2kevSE also ran water/alcohol injection 100% of the time and had no problems. J&S is also another option to dynamically pull timing when needed.

No doubt it can be a headache, but by no means is it any more difficult than boosting a factory NA engine.

I think properly tuned, (I'd trust TS to do this, but luckily i'm local to them) I believe you could have an NA motor as reliable as say a BMW M3 (haha obvious joke there). But seriously, remember that nissan runs several even MORE extreme versions of this engine in some very difficult conditions for their motorsports divisions and it's proved to be rock solid. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

I heard BMW fixed the problem with the M3's...they had bad bearings of some sort from what I remember (whether they were the mains or not, I don't know), so they are now replacing them all or replacing the engine at their cost.

 

The new cams are going to change valve overlap (I still don't know by how much...I have to run some engine sims to figure it out). They would have to in order to get the gains they are claiming (with no other mods). Also, alcohol injection would work, but I'm not talking about running it constantly. You'd have to be creative and tap into the knock sensor, use a relay, and when it detects large amounts of preignition, then it would come on. Shouldn't be that hard to wire it up. I had a manual setup once before, but that relies on seat of the pants knock detection (definitely not reliable). That way you can keep the HP/TQ and not pull timing, help resolve preignition, and still run 93 octane fuel...


EDIT--> Chinkzilla, is Nissan using stand alone setups with their 450-500 HP N/A version of the VQ35? If not, then it can absolutely be done...we just have to steal some ECUs

 

lol, i don't have the inside track at nissan but i'm willing to bet their ECU programs look nothing like ours.

here's some more things to bake your noodle:

nismo head... better flow, raises compression, bigger valves, room for higher lift cams.
http://www.performancenissanparts.co...roducts_id=311

There's a guy on the 350z forums that is running the SGP high comp pistons milled down to a static compression of 10.5:1
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthre...light=top+list
just about 300rwhp and he hasn't dyno'ed with new headers yet either.
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthre...ighlight=tomei


http://www.nissan-dakar.com/EN/SPECIAL/RACING_VQ/
they say 450ps not hp...anyone wanna do a conversion?

 

No, that's with 0-psi. I can't see the equation though, so it may not work correctly with 0-psi.

Actually, he didn't. The Aquamist turns on at 6 or 8 psi IIRC. However, with a super high CR engine, you'd need W/A injection running 100% of the time, just like if you had a tank of race gas. You'd use up your reservior too quick and then *boom*.

Maybe, however with all the knowledge we've accumulated here on SCs and now TCs are growing fast, it's getting pretty cookie-cutter simple. A HP NA engine is still uncharted territory.

TS can't touch closed-loop operation, you'd *HAVE* to go standalone.

 

350whp should be possible, but you guys have that sh!tty manifold.

I've seen a few 350z guys break 300whp NA already, however they've already broke something to get there.

 

Used a few NA web calculators off the web for the VQ35 with a CR=11.5:1 and they're saying 118-119 octane is necessary.

They're not agreeing on head volume though, so not sure if that's 100% accurate, but I'd be close.

 

agree 100% I wish there was a way to fot the 350z manifold on the Max. I'll be surprised if I have 190whp at 7200 rpms with the VI switching over at 4k.

 

You can~!

You just need to replace the lower manifold also.

Back when Ethan was trying they were too expensive, but now there's people parting out their 350z engines. Just need to find the right seller for both and it can be done.

 

well that's what makes it fun doesn't it?

For the most part, I stand corrected, however no one on the 350z forums is running a standalone to my knowledge. Fundamentally however, I've got a gut feeling 118-119 octane is not required for a modest 11.5:1 compression. If it were my project I'd either mill them down to 10.5:1 or do the nismo head + some 8.5:1 pistons.. I don't have the mathematical wherewithal to figure out what the final compression would be. But hey i'm sure some engineer around here will figure it out for me

 

You're right, if you're looking for that kind of "fun".

Seen any running 11.5:1 CR on pump gas with the stock or TS ECU?

 

Alright damn it, I'll buy the 11.5:1 pistons and try it out. If I blow up my engine, fuxor it...I'm going forced induction anyway, and this will just move the timetable up a bit. I planned on getting the TS ECU also, so I'll get my ish sent off for that as well...

By the time I'm done testing all this crap out, I could have purchased another entire Maxima what with all the money I've spent...

 

no, but this guy mjedens is running 10.5:1 with 268 tomei cams on pump gas. I think you should be fine as long as you're not running too lean. He's in Tennesee so I assume they get 93 there.

http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthre...0&pagenumber=3

i've also noticed 350z's run a lot leaner than we do stock and thus are more prone to detonation with mods.

http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthre...light=top+list

sorry, i know they make u register =P

 

No, I'm over there too. Just hadn't seen any 11.5:1 guys, thought maybe you had.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

 

do it... do it... do it...

 

Quickysliver

 

I'm changing my name to Mercury Rising...