mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

Which kit should I spend my hard earned $$ on, and why?

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

This will be interesting... I won't vote since I might be biased.

hlh0501

iTrader: (1)

ditto. this will be a good time im sure before its over haha

Dreizehn

iTrader: (4)

If people know what is included in one kit and excluded on the other I think this will be obvious...

mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

I dont know much about either one, that's why I'm asking...

Dreizehn

iTrader: (4)

I did a comparison between the two about a month ago for my own knowledge, there is a lot more things included in Hal's kit then Nigel's.

If the seller of either of these kit's see a mistake in my comparison, please correct me. I'm not %100 positive that these are the same as they were when I checked the two...

FMU - Both Vortech

Boost & A/F gauges - Hal's only

Blitz turbo timer - Hal's only

Radiator Fan - Hal's only, not needed for PFI

Wastegate - Both Deltagate

Intercooler - Hal's - custom 30", PFI - Spearco

Exhaust to CAT - Both

CAT Back including High flow cat - Hal's 3" including muffler, PFI none

Piping - Hal's all mandrel bent, PFI didn't specify but I've seen crush bends.

Oil return - Hal's to oil pan, PFI to Rocker cover

Blowoff Valve - Hal's only - HKS or APEX'i

Exhaust Wrap - Hal's only

PFI's kit is posted as $3790 - 5-speed intercooled
Hal's kit was posted as $3940 - 5-speed intercooled

Like I said before, this is just something I did on my own research. Things may have changed since then or my info might be wrong. Please correct me if it is...

Hal's website is:
Turbo - 1

PFI's website is:
Turbo - 2

There is a thread here that has a total list of what is included in PFI's kit.
Click here

Hope this helps.

Roadbeef

Which kit is better




NIGELS KIT HANDS DOWN
with Nigels secret kit you wont have no problems thats the kit I ordered for my car.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Unbiased analysis...

PFI
Cons
- need to cut metal bumper support
- need to drill holes into frame
- non-mandrel bend piping if you don't upgrade (pressure bends)
- tap oil return to valvecover
- may be missing parts
- bad instructions (I didn't even use the instructions) might be better now
- piping may be off

Pros
- T-bolt clamps
- engine bay looks clean after install
- "bolt-on" kit

HLH
Cons
- lose fog lights
- extra piping around turbo to TB
- piping hangs a bit low
- removal of stock fans for smaller fans
- exhaust piping runs next to the radiator (the left half)
- needs custom installation
- 2.5" down-pipe leading to 3" cat-back
- tap lower oil pan to return oil
- no flex section

Pros
- free install
- no need to cut bumper
- 3" cat-back included
- boost and a/f gauge included (a/f gauge is useless unless you like light shows)
- turbo timer included

joaquink

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Haven't checked my personal email in a while... but I saw yours. Will respond soon.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Do you have something to add?!?!?

Sounds like .

RS Motorsports

iTrader: (3)

If your auto i would go with nigels kit, for one you don't loose and clearance under the car compared to hals and the piping doesn't run under the tranny oil pan, for another nigels kits are dyno proven, but if you are 5-speed you do get more for the money with hals, just my opinion but i may be biased too just b/c i went with theirs and talk to guys quite a bit.
ryan

johnvt1111

iTrader: (2)

i wouldn't like to take sides in either one, but one comes with more, and costs less in the long run, i know some of you are bias because you have one over the other, and vice versus, but if your happy with what you have, who cares.....i know which one i'm going with though

on_alert

Not just because he helped me, but because I like his exhaust manifold design alot. No flex section? that could be easily remidied. Tap oil pan is a con???? I disagree. Lower is better!

Major difference noone noted: Hal uses a T3/T4 while PFI was using a straight T4. (correct me if Im wrong) I havent seen a Hal dyno, but I am pretty sure he starts making boost way before nigel, and the T3/T4, SHOULD make plenty of boost.

Another Major difference: MAF placement.

Since Hals kit runs MAF post boost, It eliminates any need for recirculation valves on the blowoff or modification with a SAFC (i think that is a feature on it for hotwire cars).
Pfi runs the MAf before the turbo. This may extend the life of the MAF which IS a costly part. We will have to see if Hal's MAF's start blowing out, but he has had alot of miles on it from what i read. Also, alot of turbo cars have post boost MAF (according to maximum boost the MAF should be as close to the TB as possible, provided it can can handle the flow.

i think we should add a third option in your poll. MAKE YOUR OWN... but not too many people have the time or the drive... Its not that hard though, especially with my writeup... coming soon...

Im not sure i like the idea of replacing both radiator fans with only one, but Hal's in kentucky and i dont think he has any overheating problems (right?)

You definitely get more bang for your buck with Hals. (all those goodies add up on the PFI kit...)

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

We're talking about the base kit. No flex section on Hal's kit.

For the oil, lower is not better. None of us that tapped the upper oil pan have had problems, but I can't say the same for the guys who tapped the lower oil pan.


Turbo's can be changed at no cost. BigDogJonx (with Hal's kit) hits peak boost at ~2500. I don't know how fast the straight T4 hits peak boost.


Forgot that.

on_alert

Have people had problems with tapping the lower oil pan, or you just dont know? If there is... I want to know about it...

The turbo thing is till a difference though yes?

Im sure you could have flex section installed for relatively nothing?

I am in no way bashing the PFI kit (i just know more about hals)!

-ctn

Dreizehn

iTrader: (4)

I didn't mention the turbo because both kits seem to be negotiable on turbo preference.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by on_alert
[B]Have people had problems with tapping the lower oil pan, or you just dont know? If there is... I want to know about it... ;-)

Yes, someone's brother blew a turbo because he tapped too low on the oil pan. Bags blew his turbo because the oil line was too small and the shop tapped the lower oil pan. It wouldn't have happened if the shop tapped the upper oil pan.

Tapping the valvecover is not the right way to do it either.


I don't know how much Hal charges, but PFI puts in a flex for free.

on_alert

It seems to me that it wouldnt hurt to run low on the pan, why would it matter? Its the same pressure either way (from basic physics)

isnt the pressure difference the same anyway?

Too small a line i agree is a problem though.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

No pressure... the oil return is gravity bled. Pressure to the turbo, but not from the turbo. This is why the return line is always thicker than the feed line.

You want to tap above the oil level so the fluid will not back up the return line.

CoOlKidS1979

Doesnt Hal kit have a better intercooler setup? No need to remove the bumper and it has more air contact compared to the one pfi uses.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

But the oil is going to back up only until it reaches the level of the oil in the sump. It's not going to back all the way up to the turbine. The advantage to tapping the upper pan is that you won't have a leak if you fail to make a tight fitting.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Tell that to Bags. I've also asked a turbo manufacturer and they highly recommended against tapping the lower oil pan.

Bags

iTrader: (3)

BUT if your oil return line is too small or if it is not exact... your oil will back up into your turbo.

Plus going in the upper pan is more direct and a shorter line


My 2 cents on the "kits" is the install. there are many little issues that WILL pop up.

If you don't know all the issues that come with a turbo, your not ready for them. That is why the install is the biggest part of this. That is where it all comes down to.

A good installer will know, heat prone areas, areas the receive the least amount of cooling air, how much clearance is needed for down pies due to supension travel, etc....

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I tapped the upper portion. I assume that's okay because all the oil drains into the lower one. You took yours off and got it welded?

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

If your return line is too small the oil is going to back up no matter where you tap it. Good point about the upper pan being more direct and shorter.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Yup! It was a pain.

turbo97SE

iTrader: (3)

I am sure that a war will start because of this but ...

4th gen TURBO KIT NEW PRICING
Base Kit - non-intercooled from $3300
I/C Kit - with Spearco intercooler and piping $3790


1. Awesome Torque and Power (for always on boost)
2. Completely customizable (any choice of turbo as optional upgrades or downgrades) depending on your application.

- LIFETIME WARANTY on all TURBONETICS turbos

3. Designed, built and backed by reputable Performance shop
4. HIGHEST DYNO PROVEN kit with multiple chargers.
5. No relocation of fans
6. Keep your fogs
7. Have nice cold air going through your turbo
8. Now no cutting of front bumper section is required if you select smaller I/C, but still need to cut holes for piping
9. Easily upgradeable from Non-I/C to I/C at any time without removing already installed kit.
10. Not limited to one type of blower. Can easily swap turbos by changing 2 short sections of pipe and some couplers.
11. "bolt-on" kit. This is not for the novice mechanic! I have to admit you should not do this unless you are VERY familiar with the car and fuel/oil system. I personally do not think it is very difficult, but from feedback from others, it is not easy.


1. Brand New T4/TO4E turbo (upgrades available) LIFETIME WARANTY for TURBONETICS chargers
2. TIAL 38mm external wastegate NOW STANDARD vs 35 mm Delagate (This JUST happened in the last two days)
3. exhaust pipes (All pipes are included now where the y-pipe was not before - Mandrel and non-mandrel available) For Mandrel bent, if you wish to lose some clearance, they can be ALL Mandrel bent.
4. Oil feed line
5. Oil dump/ return. You have the CHOICE (YES a CHOICE) of tapping valve cover OR upper oil pan, IT IS UP TO YOU! Tapping lower oil pan is a BAD idea it is perhaps the same or worse than tapping valve cover.
6. exhaust flanges to and from turbo
7. fuel pressure regulator (Any Vortech or Cartech now available for upgrade)
8. Clamps, connectors etc.
9. Spearco intercooler (optional for non-I/C)
10. Battery Relocation Kit
11. Cone Filter
12. HKS SSQBOV (now standard)
13. Can negotiate one free item (boost gauge, turbo timer) [NEW]

NOTE: Shipping is included to 48 States

It is possible run this kit up to 20lbs of pressure. You should not run this more than 9 psi on stock internals though.

What is NOT included but package deals ARE available (options):
1. high flow fuel pump (recommended) GSS342
2. larger injectors 370cc or 440cc (not required)
3. Blow Off Valve (up to you)
4. Turbo timer (up to you)
5. Recommended upgrade is 3" exhaust or you choke at 5k rpm.
6. Battery cut off switch (for NHRA reasons)
7. Boost controller to adjust boost level
8. S-AFC
9. Pistons/rods

Because PFI is a pro shop, they can get just about anything you need ... sorry no head gaskets yet.
labor

With regards to MAF stuff, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Pressurized air going past the fine element can't be very good for it especially when it is that expensive. More prone to boost leaks at the MAF adapter. It does eliminate stall when you let of the gas immediately after a hard run. You should probably get a fuel computer in any case S-AFC has the Dec-air function to eleiminate this. I don't think Fields has this. Greddy e-manage has this also I think. It's a common issue which is why hey invented this function. Some factory turbo cars have this issue also so I guess placement of the MAF this way is pretty common

Oh and instructions are waaaay better than they used to be (vs non-existent for Kev )

Biased or not, these are the facts!

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Can I pick up a free item too? A fuel pressure gauge would be cool.

Quicksilver

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the update!

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Just to let you know, tapping the valve cover is not an issue.

I have seen with my own eyes LITERALLY that it flows PLENTY oil! Used clear tubing.

Had to put that bad boy to rest!

turbo97SE

iTrader: (3)

THANK YOU! The only issue you would see is if the flow were upward and the turbo did not have some shaft seals (I think they are called the thrust seals - not sure). The shaft seals are standard on all turbonetics turbos they are NOT on TEC's for example. Mine was on for 1 year before I swapped to a larger one and there are racecars with this configuration.

Here's an experiment you can try: get a clear tube and submerse one end in the water and hold the other one straight up. Pour water in the top of the tube and see what happens. This is what happens when you tap the lower oil pan...if you're lucky, the weight of the water you pour in will push the water out the other end or it will start to back up. You are under the oil level if you tap the lower oil pan ... just try it. Also on the subject of the book "Maximum Boost", they have the same concern. I can't remember the page number tho'

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Exact example I gave when someone asked about tapping location a while back...




Where's my free gauge?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Hmmm but what if the water in the lower area was constanly being pumped out of the pan?

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

The sump is always filled, correct? Well... unless you are running low on oil.

IIRC, the dip stick doesn't extend all the way down to the bottom of the sump, so I ask because it just makes sense. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

So... what you're saying is that tapping into the lower oil pan should work fine because a fluid seeks its own level. That seems to be what you're saying, I couldn't tell for sure.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Yes you are correct but he's example with the water and tube is different than the oil drain and pan because the oil in the pan is constantly being recirculated while the water is not.

In order for the water to drain, the pressure in the tube(downward force determined by the height of the tube) would have to be greater than the force of the water in the pan(on the drain).

But my question is if the oil in the pan is being constantly recirc'd, wouldn't it sorta 'suck' the oil from the drain tube? Maybe not.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Hmmmm..... I think of this as my aquarium. Water is being circulated out and into it 24/7... but when I put a tube in the water and try fill it, the fluid will back up if I pour too fast.

It's true that water is being "sucked" but is the turnover rate fast enough to cause a difference?

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Is the oil in the pan pressurized once the engine is running?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

My conclusion(after reading your aquarium thing) is even if the water is recir'd, the drain tube's pressure would still have to overcome the pressure in the pan. I don't think the recir'd oil's pressure is high enough to overcome the existing level oil pan pressure level. So a bad idea.