who was making the "U" piping for adding a intercooler to S/C'ed max's....

who here on the boards has the vortech S/C kit with an intercooler?....did you loose any boost as a result?

what gains did you see?

 

U piping? Where was it used?

It's not possible to add an intercooler without having some boost loss. How much depends on the type of intercooler and how efficiently you are able to route the piping.

 

my question is what is the typical loss for a front mount intercooler on a S/C setup with optimal piping...in addition, is the amount of intake charge cooling that the intercooler provide make more power than the incurred boost loss losses?

 

An acceptable pressure loss through the intercooler and piping is on the order of 1 to 1.5 psi. The 3.6" pulley gives 7 psi and is good for a 80 hp gain, and people running 10 psi are typically seeing 300hp at the wheel, a 120 hp gain. So that translates to about 10-15 hp per psi, with decreasing power gain the higher you go in boost pressure. So lets say a good intercooler setup with 1 psi boost loss costs 10 hp, and if the setup is not so good, a 20 hp loss.

A widely accepted figure for power gain from charge air cooling is 1% for every 10 deg F of temperature drop. So working with a 300 hp figure, to get back the 10 hp the charge air needs to be cooled 33 F, and to get back 20 hp we need 66 F of cooling.

I have done an extensive amount of data logging with an intake air temperature gauge. I have one thermocouple at the blower inlet and one at the throttle body. Boosting to 11 psi results in a maximum charge air temp of 185 F. That was on a hot day where the air temp at the road surface was about 100F, so the temp rise was 85 F. I have never seen the temperature higher than 185 F.

Assuming an intercooler with 80% cooling efficiency, the 185 F charge air will be cooled to 117 F, assuming 100 F ambient ( convert to absolute temp by adding 460; ==> [645-577]/[645-560] = 80% )

So, to summarize, an intercooler working at 80% efficiency will cool 185 F charge air down to 117 F, which is a 68 F temp drop. So for an intercooler and piping system that results in a 10 hp loss due to pressure drop, we have gained back about 20 hp due to temperature drop, for a net gain of 10 hp. If the intercooler and piping results in a 20 hp loss, then we have broken even with the temperature drop.

 

I just did an front mount intercooler. I admit that if I deleted the fog lights I would have less 90 degree bends. however I lost 3 psi. I am using the 3.33 pulley, but as soon as I find 370cc or 550cc injectors I am upgrading and putting on a cusom smaller pulley.

 

was the gain more than the power from the 3psi that was lost? did you dyno?

 

I haven't dynoed. however I would say that by the "feel" I haven't lost any power. What I have really noticed is that on hot days when you drive around I don't notice the heat soak I noticed before. also i feel that it is safer boost because it is cooler. I am running a 28.5x8x3 spearco.

 

really, the most basic purpose of the intercooler is to run more boost safely. they generally aren't used as power adders without upping the boost from what i've seen.

 

cooler air+more fuel+spark=more power...the "purpose" is to lower intake charge temp...stability of more cool air and reduction in chance of detonation, as well as the ability to condense more air (increased boost) without the terminal effects of Boyle's Law wreaking havoc upon thine engine, etc. are simply its technological benefits....semantics....sorry been up two days in a row, no sleep, just thought I might be able to clarify a little.

 

yes but if you try using an intercooler at low boost the cooling effects would most likely be negligable since the air isn't being compressed as much. now, if your turbo is super inefficient then you might gain something at low boost but most likely you wouldn't. to see the gains from an intercooler you really have to up the boost since that's when you start to see major cooling.

you might still gain a little bit at low boost... but most likely you wouldn't with most newer turbos.

basically, it can't be only for lower the intake charge temperature because if you aren't at high pressures it won't do anything making the statement "an intercooler is for upping the boost" true.

something like that

 

intercooler cooler air you dont have to up boost to cool air . Some just like the idea of having cooler air, more toys . Plus it looks mean imo. I think Stephen Max did a nice job of cooling the charge pipe effectively. Hey Stephen MAX, what did that length/ bending of pipe cost you ?

 

for high boost (i.e. more than ~8 psi) yes, an intercooler will make a huge difference. it can add power, and deter detonation. if you're running low boost (i.e. less than ~8 psi) there is not really any point to add an intercooler. if you get any gains from it they won't be that high and the temperature difference will be quite low. therefore (for the 3rd or 4th time) an intercooler is used to up the boost (i.e. going over ~8 psi, making more heat, pushing more air, creating more pressure, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.)

sure, you can put one on when pushing low boost and have no plans of turning up the boost but you just will not notice much if at all a difference in power or any of that.

 

Your preaching to the crowd in here. We all know this, I think to some having a ic completes there set up (to them) and just having one is what they might want. Thats all

 

i understand. i'm just trying making a statement about intercoolers that people seem to keep disagreeing with me on.

 

I am really getting tired of people ripping on the intercooler/SC thing! I agree with all that I don't have dyno proof that my new set up added power, other than I think It has added lag and the 3 or less psi boost lost, but no power loss (3.33). However, this is just the beginning I plan on putting in 550, emanage, and 2.87, and I just bought a 2.62 pulley, which will really overspeed the blower and totally throw it out of its effiency (cant spell that right now) range. I am going for 350 plus at the wheels and be able to be daily driven. So.....as always I appreciate all your guys help and criticism keep it up cause it whats gives me and others the ideas to do more!

 

The best idea I could think of would be a Power Cooler from Vortech but the price kinda ruins that idea pretty fast..with the stock piping and no added pipes you will see really no boost loss...



It think there in the neiborhood of $1600-2000 or something along those lines...

-matt

 

with the way most turbo systems are setup you'll techincally never see boost loss... actually, there will be a boost increase. most setups have the wastegate feed coming off of the intake manifold which is also where boost is read most of the time. say for instance you have a 7 pound spring in the wastegate. once your intake manifold pressure hits 7 psi the wastegate will be open all of the way.

if you measured the pressure right after the turbo it would actually be quite a bit higher than in the intake manifold. if you add an intercooler the pressure will increase even more on the turbo side but you'll still retain the 7 psi in the intake manifold since that's where the wastegate is getting its reading.

now, if you have the wastegate boost signal before the intercooler you will notice a drop in pressure when adding an intercooler but you will also see less boost in the intake manifold that what your spring is supposed to open at most of the time.

if you have an s/c none of this applies.

how much pressure does the s/c push with the 3.33 pulley? i'm not saying that you'll be losing any power at all, i'm just saying that at low boost an intercooler isn't really all that necessary. the necessity comes in when you're wanting to up the boost which increases temperatures which is exactly what you said you are going to do. you are getting a smaller pulley which will increase the boost so you will need the intercooler to keep things cool and keep the engine from knocking.

i'm not saying at all that you don't need one or never need one... they just aren't really that necessary when at low amounts of boost. that's all.

 

I paid about $18 each for two polished aluminum 90 deg bends, $15 for a 3' straight section from a muffler shop, and something like $20 for a nitrile 90 that I cut in half to make two 45 deg bends, and I don't know how much for T-clamps and random silicone pieces. Probably around $100, total.

 

there are mandrel bends on ebay a lot. i picked up some 180 degree 2.5 pipe for 13.50 a piece. 21 dollars shipping with 6 of those pipes. i think the price went up to 14.50 a pipe the other day but its still the best deal i can find so far.

 

Thanks for the info

 

i think my aftercooler sees about a 1 psi loss.

i have the 3.33 pulley and dont usually see over 8 psi unless the water in the cooler is completely iced.

 

I've read all the above posts, and I saw 10-11psi with the 3.33 pulley, and now I see a max of 6-7psi with fmic. I have read that the vortech aftercooler will only lose .8 psi, however based on the info above the after cooler losses about 2-3 psi just like my fmic, so no gain! glad to see that because I was thinking of making some new pipes for a water to air cooler.

As far as turning the boost up, I realize that 10 psi doesnt seem like much but in I feel a 10:1 engine the cooler the intake the better. So i did the fmic, and am planning on using a 2.87 pulley and then maybe a 2.62 pulley? all of the above will totally overspeed the blower, but what the hell, whats another 800-whatever thousand this far in the game? by the way this will be on my boosted all stock 160,000 mile motor!! Nissans rock this is my second, I don't feel It will break but, I do feel I should swap in a new head gasket!

 

my awac is not the vortech, it is a custom box with 10 radiators with a low pressure flow system, pretty complex.

if you swap in a new head gasket, i think mardi checked out the greddy grex sandwiched copper gasket and it fits on the vq30de.

if you take two of the inner layers of one and put it in between another, you can change the compression to boost a little safer.

the thing with a copper gasket is that you have to go in and retighten whenever it settles a little (1k i think)

anyone else have ideas?

btw crewchief-where is new haven? Southern IN?

 

3 psi of boost translates roughly to 30 hp. Cooler air adds power at about 1% per 10 deg F of temperature drop. (These numbers are widely accepted, but have not been proven in the context of a VQ engine). So to just break even, you are going to need a temperature drop of 100 F, assuming you were making 300 hp before adding the intercooler. But the stock supercharger kit (as designed by Stillen) boosting to 12 psi only raises the temperature about 85 F, based on much data I have collected. You may be tired of hearing it, but there is no way you are making more power with an intercooler that costs you 3 psi in boost pressure.

To get to 350 hp you are going to need all of that 12 psi, and enough efficiency in your intake and exhaust systems to effectively utilize the boost pressure you're making. Losing 3 psi through an intercooler isn't going to get you there, especially if you have to spin the blower so fast to make up for the 3 psi loss that you are below 65% efficiency. If you can optimize your intercooler piping to minimize losses down to 1-1.5 psi, then I think you will come out ahead.

 

are you using a tube and fin intercooler? if so, that could most likely be the issue. if you compare a good bar and plate (spearco) to just about any tube and fin intercooler out there you'll see the difference immensly.

actually, take a look at the new issue of turbo and high tech performance (i believe). they have a supra in there that has a spearco bar and plate intercooler and shine a lot on it from the other side... you can actually see the light perfectly whereas if you were to do the same to a tube and fin unit you'd be lucky to see some light. that is one area of improvement flow-wise.

others would be to minimize tight bends which is a big one for flow and to be sure to use mandrel bends. start with the intercooler though as a quality intercooler will get you pretty far.

 

i am using a bar and plate and I know for fact that the intercooler is working very well! comparing the feel of hot air from before (at the bov) and now after the air is at the same temp as the outside air at idle! I am planning on running a 2.87 pulley with my emanage and hoping for 350+, if not i'm putting on a 2.62 and if is still doesn't do it, then o'well, I'll wait till the blower breaks and get an upgraded one that can put out more!

 

Thats the spirit

 

might go through all of your piping and make sure there are no extreme bends or anything. 3 psi seems aweful excessive if you have a good bar and plate core.

 

well i just reinstalled my fmic. at least the piping stays ion place now instead of poping off everytime i boost.

im not gonna say it completley done yet because i am still chasing leaks. just found one the other day. i was leaking boost from my maf. i had to reseal the square piece on the maf.


currently i am seeing 8lb. on a 2.87 pulley.

 

ahh yeah, that'd be something else also.

may check for some leaks in your intake piping as well as making sure there are no extreme bends in the piping.

 

yes yes i know that. the maf was just the easiest one to find at the time.

i have 4 90 degree bends and 1 u bend.

im going over to one of the shops we deal with at work they are gonna pressure test the piping for me. see if there are any leaks at the welds.

 

Yeah, the pipes that were on my car, did have some problems at first, however I fixed those. I have a pic of my pipes (not the 3psi lost one) on my web page,as I am selling copies of them for those who don't have a welder. any ways I made some changes to the design slightly, and I really don't think there will be any gain, the only way I think I would see gain is to delete my fogs and get rid og that one 180 degree bend, Ithink that is where most of my problems are. However, I like the stock look and really refuse to delete the fogs!! Sacrifices are a *****!