Akumachan

iTrader: (12)

ok, so ive looked and searched and looked and searched but if it has been written before, forgive me and maybe point me in the right direction. i was wondering, which is better for performance, the supercharger or the turbo. ive always thought id rather get a turbo, but all my friends tell me to get a supercharger cuz it doesnt have lag and it doesnt have to spool down before you turn your car off. i know that superchargers get power directly from the engine, and turbos get it from exhaust, so turbos would be more efficient, but just wondering, is it worth the lag for the extra power, or should i follow my friends advice? thanks everyone

JeffesonM

iTrader: (5)

how much money you got to spend?

Scope

iTrader: (5)

Both are efficient but money for one is an issue and tuning is also an issue. With a supercharger you don't get the gains like you would with a turbo. S/C offer less tunability to run properly but your power is limited to the pulley size and engine speed. You can experience lag with both. With S/c you can overboost and turbos you can under boost ala lag. But with the proper equipment you may be able to eleminate lag. But it all depends if you can put hours into tuning or you want to install and go. I would prefer to tune her because the turbo gains are much better and you can adjust the boost electronically. That's the only reason why I don't like s/c's. All in all it's more of a money decision. I vote turbo though and how many of your friends are turbo charged. supercharged? Unless the have experience then they reall can't downgrade a turbo because of lag. Doesn't a turbo have a constant spool at idle due to the fact of it being exhaust driven? I've seen my neighbors start and cut their turbo intercooled SAAB without every letting it spool down.

Akumachan

iTrader: (12)

looks like turbos gonna be it then, thanks for the great info ridah. money isnt really too much of what im concerned with since either way ill be saving for quite awhile to afford it, but now i know no to fear the lag, and also, if i might go ahead and ask one more question, i also heard that turbo's turbines wear out (the bearings) about every 30k miles or so. is this accurate, and if so, are the turbines not too terribly expensive?

Scope

iTrader: (5)

You can buy a repair kit for like 200 if that much. THe best thing would be to change your oil every 1500 miles or so. Don't let the oil stay in as long as it can when you're n/a. You really can't put a certain limit on it because if you get a good reputable turbo then it should last as long as it's treated on an advanced basis.

Akumachan

iTrader: (12)

alright, so thats one less worry, thanks a bunch ridah

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

its turning, but there is NO positive pressure at idle...most turbos don't "sufficiently" spool unitl 2500-3000 rpm

hlh0501

iTrader: (1)

I have grabbed the wheel on my turbo while idling.. they spin, but nothing compared to the 100,000rpm they spin at when boosting.

Basic rundown is supercharger is much cheaper, less to deal with (tuning), and makes less power and tq than a decent size turbo.

Also, the vortech supercharger does not make full boost until redline, so, in that sense a turbo actually has less lag. Spool time isn't terrible on turbo cars - it doesn't have the instant punch - but once spooled you can keep it in your powerband from then on when shifting (assuming you didn't go insanely large or poorly piped turbo). Also from a roll you can brake spool, 2step, antilag... there are different methods of building boost while not accelerating.

A turbo wears out, yes. If taken care of (turbo timed and oil changed) there is no reason it shouldn't last 50.. to even 100k. Superchargers have to be rebuilt too.

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

i love all this info....

Akumachan

iTrader: (12)

hlh0501... now theres a man who knows what hes talking about. thanks for all the great info, i guess im still a bit on the fence, as ill need my car as a daily driver still, but i love power... ohwell, have plenty of time to choose

also, from what ive seen, turbos arent that much more expensive than s/cs. only about $500 more, so whats this huge price difference everybodies always talking about?

HNDA ETR

iTrader: (10)

I believe it's the custom piping...

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

PLEASE don't believe that...out of the 2 turbo Maixmas I've worked on, there is MUCH more time(cannot emphasize that enough) and money involved in maintaining and troubleshooting it than a simple SC'd Maxima(not downplaying the SC any). IMO time, knowledge and/or a good shop is what you need to have before you go turbo...its no cake walk especially if you want the best gains! F' that I'll stick to my Hondas

slimer

iTrader: (13)

yeah, you wont get as much boost unlessyou have 3" turbo back exhaust

Boosted Maxima

Ok ok.. not all superchargers are stupid and the companys that make them have come a long way in the last few years with effeciencys and more applications along with more duribility. But when it comes down to brass tacks they still can't match the turbocharger.
The main cost difference is going to be that there's not a "kit" for our cars for turbocharging (that I know of) that allows you to just bolt it on and go. I did all my fabrication myself but it's not for the novice garage gear head! Proper manifold to turbo size along with collector size Up pipe and Down pipe sizes all play a large roll in how the turbo acts to the engine. (as mentioned above) Exhaust size, Intake routing to the turbo and Intercooler&piping must be the correct size as well. Then the Tuning (which I'm still in the process of) is very very critical. That's 90% of the success or failure of not only the engine but the driveabity of the car in relationship to power.

Even the Supercharger "kits" still have driveability problems to be worked with.
Once the fabrications are done it's going to take time to tune it right even with the correct equipment (wideband/EGT/dataloger) whatever it takes.
Changing the oil will help extend the life of the engine/turbo because of the heat. IT's a good Idea to let it idle for a minute or so if you've just got done making a few passes with it but I don't genearly sit in the car and let it idle if I've just been driving normal. Never had a turbo fail from that.
Good luck with your decision.
Scott~

Akumachan

iTrader: (12)

thanks scott and everyone else, youve all given me a lot to think about. like i said before, itll be ages before i have the money to do either one, but all this info has difinitely helped to clear a bunch of stuff up.

Rowan

iTrader: (1)

What are the hidden costs in approx dollars of S/C vs turbo? ie belts, blown engine, etc. and what is the best way to maintain a s/c?

great info so far FI guys, this is a good learning thread for me and my fellow FI newbs. thanks.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

Regular maintenance and just being aware of whats goin on in the engine bay is the biggest part of owning a fi car.

Boosted Maxima

Vortech was using engine oil to cool their superchargers but may have switched being as when the charger fails it sends all the garbage into the engine and does harm there too The ProCharger PS1 has a internal oiling system that does not use engine oil. You are recomended to change the SC oil every other oil change (but I'd do it every time)

When turbo's fail it's generaly just oil leaks or impellers coming off somthing like that of which the intercooler or piping won't let it get to the engine. You'd realy have to not check things or listen to not notice that! I've seen some prity bad turbos still not come apart!! Severe cases of no matinence.
The neat thing about building a turbo setup is there's not just this huge chunk of money to put in all at once. It's a parts gathering process that may take 2 or more months. With a Supercharger it's 3-5,000 unless you go used. I'd only use Vortech,Powerdyne or Procharger. Procharger being my choice.
~Scott

C MAX

iTrader: (4)

they still are. i have the s/c v2 but it wasn't the price that swayed me i just had a different plan. i wanted forced induction but didnt want to get stuck if the device failed. so what i did was get a s/c give it plenty of boost and when a turbo wanted to test me id just juice em plain and simple. many of you know i have went up against many turbo's and won more than i lost because of the combination. turbo is a beautiful thing to have but if you want a daily driver that can still be driven if its broke the s/c is the way to go.

Blackbob

I personally prefer to turbocharge anything I get. Exspecially cars or any other gasoline motor.

My reasons for this is that well for one, turbos create better power for the buck along with a much healthier torque curve. Secondly they can be JUST AS CHEAP,if you know what you are doing and are handy enough to not have to buy everything new(unless you prefer to do so). Thirdly,you HP is not only controlled by the push of a button; You can also better control gas mileage too. I don't like the idea of having my HP cam/RPM limited. Besides what's better then a nice whistle combined with a PSSHHHHHH....Not to mention all of the other cool accessories that you get when turbocharging(Front Mount InterCoolers come to mind). Don't get me wrong if you take your time and build it right..you can(to a point) have them both equally matched. It's all just a matter of how deep your pockets are.

~BB~

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

actually... wouldn't that be just the opposite? i know for a fact if a turbo fails the car will still opperate with no issues at all. if anything, it will just run rich when in the upper rpms because its supposed to be seeing boost but isn't.

if a belt breaks with the s/c you have to change the belt to use the car since the belt also runs accessories needed to run the car from what i understand. also, if the s/c was to lockup or something it would cause the belt to break or slip and wear down really fast due to rubbing on the s/c's pulley and whatnot.

a turbo is way more efficient than a s/c. plus, in my opinion, a centrifugal supercharger is probably the worst one out there. it has lag and doesn't even produce full boost till redline. a turbo has lag of course, but will produce full boost way before redline and keep it there until you let of the gas.

to have a good centrifugal s/c setup, the s/c would have to have a cvt setup. this would make it nearly have no lag and have full boost throughout the entire rev range but since these s/c's are that way, i'd go turbo.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

There are different ways to reach full boost earlier on a C-SC. The easiest way and most widely used is to install a much smaller SC pulley and adjust the belt tension so that it slips at a certain drag level (aka. boost). Almost ALL serpentine belt setups have a certain amount of slip in them with a SC. Just take advantage of it.

Another way is to setup some sort of boost wastegate or regulator. This way is more difficult to do and there doesn't appear to be many good options for doing so. But if done correctly it would be very effective.


To answer the origional question, Turbocharging is certainly the way to go for very high hp levels. But going this route can be far more difficult and costly to do correctly.

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

you also have the problem of over spinning the compressor of a s/c with a smaller pulley though.

depending on your skills as a mechanic, you could do a turbo setup pretty cheaply.

C MAX

iTrader: (4)

i will never disagree that turbo is the ultimate high for hp. but prove that statement to me and send me a turbo thats not pushing 30lbs and watch what i do to it. if you dont know much about me know that there isnt a turbo car that i havent raced and beat minus a few modded evos and civics other than that its any mans game. also there are a few turbo max's i hang out with who will tell you the same because at the end its the money you spent and tuning that will decide the winner not the FI unit.