Cryo treating transmission parts?
01-18-2005, 07:32 PM
#1
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Cryo treating transmission parts?
i have not gotton a valid answer as to why this cryogenic treatment is done to moving tranny parts, i always thought cryo meant to freeze something, which makes it brittle i think. has anyone else done this or understand this process.
i am rebuilding my tranny, damn thing would not hold 10psi. can you guys belive this. well about 3k on the tranny and it took a dump. so i bought a bullet proof tanny kit from maximum tuning and he also mentioned cryo treat and said he sent the instructions on which parts to treat with my parts i ordered. i'm rebuilding the tranny myself at my shop.. any help would be great thanks.
i am rebuilding my tranny, damn thing would not hold 10psi. can you guys belive this. well about 3k on the tranny and it took a dump. so i bought a bullet proof tanny kit from maximum tuning and he also mentioned cryo treat and said he sent the instructions on which parts to treat with my parts i ordered. i'm rebuilding the tranny myself at my shop.. any help would be great thanks.
01-18-2005, 08:01 PM
#3
I'm in the same boat. I don't understand how feezing metal makes it stronger? I have also never heard of treating auto's. There are tons of intricate parts in the panets and it would be a lot to treat all of that. When auto's fail from boost isn't it usually due to the torque converter?
01-18-2005, 08:02 PM
#4
Cryo treating means the metal has been taken down to a very low temp and then slowly brought back up to another temp. This process makes the molecules pull closer together in the metal. Some have claimed atleast !00% stronger than stock. It is actually an inexpensive investment. I think you can get the whole trans done for $300 (5spd)
01-18-2005, 11:50 PM
#6
Originally Posted by vortechpower
Cryo treating means the metal has been taken down to a very low temp and then slowly brought back up to another temp. This process makes the molecules pull closer together in the metal. Some have claimed atleast !00% stronger than stock. It is actually an inexpensive investment. I think you can get the whole trans done for $300 (5spd)
01-19-2005, 12:34 AM
#7
its cooled down to change the molecular density of the metal and then slowly brought back up to normal temperature. Both processes involve a few steps to ensure that there is no brittleness
http://www.delstar.com/services/cryo/treatment.htm
http://www.delstar.com/services/cryo/treatment.htm
01-19-2005, 07:29 AM
#8
Like has been said, cryo treating is not expensive. MardiGras and I were discussing it, and he said he had his gears cryo treated, polished, deburred and shot peened for around $250.
The expensive part would be if you don't do the disassembly/reassembly yourself. The labor for doing that would be expensive.
The expensive part would be if you don't do the disassembly/reassembly yourself. The labor for doing that would be expensive.
01-19-2005, 02:52 PM
#10
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hey chris, i never called level 10 i used maximum tuning and i work for a dealer so i'm not sure if the price i paid for the kit is what he would sell it for. i do know that he usually sells the tranny rebuilt with a vb mod for 2500 with warranty, but i'm building it myself and just bought the parts from them. i also got the torque convertor i figured might as well do it all since i got it out anyways.
01-19-2005, 02:58 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Nismotech1
hey chris, i never called level 10 i used maximum tuning and i work for a dealer so i'm not sure if the price i paid for the kit is what he would sell it for. i do know that he usually sells the tranny rebuilt with a vb mod for 2500 with warranty, but i'm building it myself and just bought the parts from them. i also got the torque convertor i figured might as well do it all since i got it out anyways.
Yeah sorry about that. i noticed you said maximum tuning after i had posted. So it was 2500 for the tranny all put together including the torque converter?
01-19-2005, 07:35 PM
#13
to understand cryo better you should look in to ancient sword making and how it works, basically when they use to heat swords in the open flame this allows the metal to expand, then cooling it allows the expanded metal to trap in more carbines into its open areas in the metal matrix structure to strengthen the material. cryo is just an more andvance form of that. cryo will strengthen engine parts 100%+ and you will see less wear and tear on the part throught its lifetime. you should also treat your short block and valvetrain. some people even cryo rotors, but the process is pretty cheap i guess cryo 4 rotor maybe = 100k on them or somehtign before change?
heres an article i read on it a while back
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/projec...scc_proj300zx/
heres a pic example:
if this is the metal in expanded state:
and these are carbines
now imagine when the metal structure cools down or rectracts the little jumping smilies gets locked inside cause their heads are too big to get out and thats how metal heating/cryo works
heres an article i read on it a while back
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/projec...scc_proj300zx/
heres a pic example:
if this is the metal in expanded state:
and these are carbines
now imagine when the metal structure cools down or rectracts the little jumping smilies gets locked inside cause their heads are too big to get out and thats how metal heating/cryo works
01-19-2005, 10:26 PM
#14
to make a long story short... crying it re-tempers the metal, making it a lot stronger.
it does indeed make metal more brittle (the more tempered it is the more brittle it is however it is stronger). i think you could think of it as a ceramic knife. they hold their edge very, very well... much better than steel. however, if you were to slap the ceramic knife against a table it would most likely break unlike a steel knife. that's basically because its theoretically tempered more than the steel.
i think the gears hold up well when cryoed because they aren't "slapping" against anything really hard. since the teeth of the gears are meshed together and don't really have any gaps in them that is most likely why they do well.
now, if you had gap inbetween the teeth to where both gears' teeth could slap one another that could possibly cause some issues.
in the end... this is all speculation on my part. it seems like the logical reasoning behind it all but i'm not 100% sure.
it does indeed make metal more brittle (the more tempered it is the more brittle it is however it is stronger). i think you could think of it as a ceramic knife. they hold their edge very, very well... much better than steel. however, if you were to slap the ceramic knife against a table it would most likely break unlike a steel knife. that's basically because its theoretically tempered more than the steel.
i think the gears hold up well when cryoed because they aren't "slapping" against anything really hard. since the teeth of the gears are meshed together and don't really have any gaps in them that is most likely why they do well.
now, if you had gap inbetween the teeth to where both gears' teeth could slap one another that could possibly cause some issues.
in the end... this is all speculation on my part. it seems like the logical reasoning behind it all but i'm not 100% sure.
01-20-2005, 09:36 AM
#15
Originally Posted by Nismotech1
no 2500 for the tranny bullet proof.
torque convertor sold seperatly. i think it is around 400
torque convertor sold seperatly. i think it is around 400
01-20-2005, 11:01 AM
#16
Sheesh. Since when did metal alloys start forming molecules? I've taken two undergraduate and one graduate course in metallurgy and not once was the word "molecule" ever used. Metal microstructure is more appropriately described as a crystalline structure where alloying atoms inhabit interstitial locations. Regions of uniform crystalline structure are called grains. Deformation of metals takes place primarily at grain boundaries and at dislocations (sort of like a fault line) within grains. Much of heat treating and tempering involves manipulating grain size, as well as changing the type of crystalline structure (body centered cubic or face centered cubic) of the alloy. I suspect this is what is happening with cryo-treating.
01-20-2005, 11:37 AM
#19
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
Sheesh. Since when did metal alloys start forming molecules? I've taken two undergraduate and one graduate course in metallurgy and not once was the word "molecule" ever used. Metal microstructure is more appropriately described as a crystalline structure where alloying atoms inhabit interstitial locations. Regions of uniform crystalline structure are called grains. Deformation of metals takes place primarily at grain boundaries and at dislocations (sort of like a fault line) within grains. Much of heat treating and tempering involves manipulating grain size, as well as changing the type of crystalline structure (body centered cubic or face centered cubic) of the alloy. I suspect this is what is happening with cryo-treating.
In theory, this is what is happening, but the problem is I don't think there have been any scientific studies done in relation to cryo-treating that prove that the process actually does what it theoretically should. Also, am I correct in thinking that a larger grain size means stronger metal because there are fewer dislocations between them (are dislocations known as berger vectors? its been like 6 years since I took metals and materials).
01-20-2005, 12:21 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Mizeree_X
In theory, this is what is happening, but the problem is I don't think there have been any scientific studies done in relation to cryo-treating that prove that the process actually does what it theoretically should. Also, am I correct in thinking that a larger grain size means stronger metal because there are fewer dislocations between them (are dislocations known as berger vectors? its been like 6 years since I took metals and materials).
Burger's vector refers to the direction and magnitude of relative slip between two regions of a crystal. Slip occurs at dislocations, so the two are related.
Deformation of a grain increases the energy at a grain boundary, and is thus a strengthening mechanism. This is what happens in cold working and forging operations.
I honestly cannot remember what the correlation between grain size and strength is, though.
01-20-2005, 06:11 PM
#23
Originally Posted by Nismotech1
Aaron i think they sell the kits for about half the cost of the tranny, but since you already have a vb mod you should call jeff and find out what he can do for you.
01-21-2005, 09:21 PM
#26
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
Sheesh. Since when did metal alloys start forming molecules? I've taken two undergraduate and one graduate course in metallurgy and not once was the word "molecule" ever used. Metal microstructure is more appropriately described as a crystalline structure where alloying atoms inhabit interstitial locations. Regions of uniform crystalline structure are called grains. Deformation of metals takes place primarily at grain boundaries and at dislocations (sort of like a fault line) within grains. Much of heat treating and tempering involves manipulating grain size, as well as changing the type of crystalline structure (body centered cubic or face centered cubic) of the alloy. I suspect this is what is happening with cryo-treating.
i took one course on mechanical properties of materials and i think this process is known as quenching? you heat it up and cool it off quick enough, and insert a 2nd material thatll fill the interstitial voids in the structure. when you cool it off, it condenses what wouldve been a very long period of time, to a few hours, sometimes a few seconds depending on the material. so instead of just a certain alloy, itll insert a substitute thatll make the metal much stronger. just a thought.
01-22-2005, 10:09 AM
#27
Originally Posted by Nismotech1
i bought everything together, my tranny is completely stock i'm not sure how much it would be seperatly
Originally Posted by Nismotech1
but i'm building it myself and just bought the parts from them
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