Vortech Charge Cooler ??
06-11-2005, 08:34 PM
#1
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Vortech Charge Cooler ??
I have a rair chance to get a vortech charge cooler off of one of my buddies friend for pretty cheap...like $200
I dont know what shape it is since they are all different shapes but I figure anyone would work. I think its off of a GSR engine but not too sure
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/products/coolers/
How would that actually work...its water in a tank that feeds into the cooler ?? I wanna learn more
In those pics i dont see any MAF ?? where would I put that before or after the cooler ??
I wanted to see what would be the benifits of this and the flaws of it ?? I think that it would be benifitial to the setup for the charge temps..
I would be able to get it to work probably over by the battery and feed to the throttle body..
would it be worth $200 to see if i could get it to work
-matt
I dont know what shape it is since they are all different shapes but I figure anyone would work. I think its off of a GSR engine but not too sure
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/products/coolers/
How would that actually work...its water in a tank that feeds into the cooler ?? I wanna learn more
In those pics i dont see any MAF ?? where would I put that before or after the cooler ??
I wanted to see what would be the benifits of this and the flaws of it ?? I think that it would be benifitial to the setup for the charge temps..
I would be able to get it to work probably over by the battery and feed to the throttle body..
would it be worth $200 to see if i could get it to work
-matt
06-14-2005, 11:24 AM
#4
get it. theyre great. the box is actually a bunch of radiators that flows water through them and into a heat exchanger that you mount in the front. my exchanger bolts into the front radiator support.
06-15-2005, 07:11 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by matty
How would that actually work...its water in a tank that feeds into the cooler ?? I wanna learn more
In those pics i dont see any MAF ?? where would I put that before or after the cooler ??
I wanted to see what would be the benifits of this and the flaws of it ?? I think that it would be benifitial to the setup for the charge temps..
I would be able to get it to work probably over by the battery and feed to the throttle body..
would it be worth $200 to see if i could get it to work
-matt
In those pics i dont see any MAF ?? where would I put that before or after the cooler ??
I wanted to see what would be the benifits of this and the flaws of it ?? I think that it would be benifitial to the setup for the charge temps..
I would be able to get it to work probably over by the battery and feed to the throttle body..
would it be worth $200 to see if i could get it to work
-matt
You can also put a fan in front of the exchanger if you wish. I think I will.
A good pump for this application is from Ford Racing - part number M8501-L54. It's the AWIC pump for the Ford F150 Lightning truck. I bought mine here for $105. Pump says on it " bosch PCA 12V 0 392 022 002 (058)" so obviously Ford doesn't make it. Maybe it's cheaper elsewhere?
I haven't found a good tank for my setup yet - any suggestions?
MAF goes between air filter and S/C intake - that's why you don't see it. Go to Latinmax's page, you'll see the setup for air filter in fender, MAF before blower.
Any good charge cooling system (FMIC, AWIC) should increase power, while lowering danger of preignition &/or detonation. Heat soak for multiple boosted runs or hot days will not be a problem for you anymore.
The pros of AWIC system are:
- For short blasts (passing, 1/4 mile, etc) any charge cooler works as a heat sink. The heat is sucked up by the mass of the cooler and is only exchanged with the environment over a longer time period. The water provides a larger mass to sink the heat into, compared to air / air cooler. That's why it's the choice for drag racing.
- if you are feeling kooky, you can fill your tank with ice, getting charge air temps below ambient, instead of way above. Colder air=denser air=more boost=more fuel=more power.
- With AWIC, the compressed volume of air is reduced compared to FMIC, so pressure drop and boost lag are minimized.
- with proper sized exchanger and fan, long term heat dissipation can be same or better than FMIC. With small exchanger, it'll be worse.
- Can be installed without hacking your sheet metal or removing entire front of car. Ability to fit into tight spaces is why it's used for aftermarket Porsche, Miata and Jag setups.
The cons (compared to FMIC) are:
- it's complicated. There are pumps to break, wiring to fritz, hoses to leak. The potential for trouble is greatly increased. A FMIC is passive, always there, not much to go wrong.
- It's expensive. If you get the cooler part for $200, you're less than halfway there. Still need exchanger(s), pump, hoses, wiring, filler, tank, switch, relay...What about battery relocation? If you look closely at I30Krab's setup, his is gone... need relocation kit to trunk! I'd guess you have another $400 or so to spend.
- it can be heavy, depending on amount of liquid in your system. The guy I bought my AWIC from was using it on a pro-drag truck, and hauled around FIVE GALLONS of water & ice.
06-15-2005, 09:15 AM
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:o)
Originally Posted by mhadford
An AWIC setup
...
MAF goes between air filter and S/C intake - that's why you don't see it. Go to Latinmax's page, you'll see the setup for air filter in fender, MAF before blower.
...
using it on a pro-drag truck, and hauled around FIVE GALLONS of water & ice.
...
MAF goes between air filter and S/C intake - that's why you don't see it. Go to Latinmax's page, you'll see the setup for air filter in fender, MAF before blower.
...
using it on a pro-drag truck, and hauled around FIVE GALLONS of water & ice.
06-15-2005, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ptatohed
Mike, Are you saying that if one were to use an aftercooler, they need to place the MAF before the SC or are you just stating that's how your set-up is (because you have a 5th gen.)?
I don't know if it has to be before SC or if it can be after. If there's space, why would it make a difference?
06-15-2005, 09:33 AM
#11
i have a 1 pt. box for my tank is built into the box itself.
It is the small box on the right side with the wire cutters seen here.
the pump mounts to the factory battery bracket for a stock look. i wish i had pics of that to show you. I may take some tomorrow
It is the small box on the right side with the wire cutters seen here.
the pump mounts to the factory battery bracket for a stock look. i wish i had pics of that to show you. I may take some tomorrow
06-15-2005, 10:07 AM
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I want to keep my battery where it is, so I'm thinking about having no tank at all, just an inline filler. I just won't be able to put in ice. If I put in a tank, it shoud be small. Maybe I'll just get some junkyard radiator overflow bottle with a convenient looking bracket, and put some hose fittings on it.
Slimer, do you have your AWIC pump running constantly, or just when boosting (maybe running from a relay connected to fuel booster pump)? I bought this ford racing / bosch pump, but I have no idea whether it's up to constant use. Also do you have a fan on your exchanger / radiator?
Slimer, do you have your AWIC pump running constantly, or just when boosting (maybe running from a relay connected to fuel booster pump)? I bought this ford racing / bosch pump, but I have no idea whether it's up to constant use. Also do you have a fan on your exchanger / radiator?
06-15-2005, 10:38 AM
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So what kind of boost losses can be expected from these? I know the losses are less than a front mount but certainly there must be some losses.
Are there advantages/disadvantages to Mike's barrel design vs Steve's box design?
Are there advantages/disadvantages to Mike's barrel design vs Steve's box design?
06-15-2005, 10:42 AM
#15
The PWR barrel I've seen has the extrude tube style core, which is cheap/effective however it's more restrictive then other tube/fin designs. There's definitely more of a restriction then many FMIC core designs, however without the piping loss, which is better in the end...I don't know.
I'd like to see what the inner core type is on the Vortech unit.
I'd like to see what the inner core type is on the Vortech unit.
06-15-2005, 11:00 AM
#16
Mike-I did have mine connected to a switch that i could turn on and off, but i seem to get better cooloing capabilities if it is always on. I just tapped a ignition wire and it turns on with the other accessories.
Also, my heat exchanger is in the very front of the car, so no fan for me.
Josh-Pressure loss is maybe .5 psi, but it makes up even more with the cooling effect.
Alex-My core is tube/fin, but the air flows through the fins and the water flows through the tubes.
Relocating the battery is not hard at all. All you need is a box and a speaker power wire.
Also, my heat exchanger is in the very front of the car, so no fan for me.
Josh-Pressure loss is maybe .5 psi, but it makes up even more with the cooling effect.
Alex-My core is tube/fin, but the air flows through the fins and the water flows through the tubes.
Relocating the battery is not hard at all. All you need is a box and a speaker power wire.
06-18-2005, 10:22 AM
#17
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From Bell Intercoolers Ltd.:
What are the variations in core construction used in intercoolers?
What ranges of efficiency can be expected from an intercooler?
What are the variations in core construction used in intercoolers?
The variations are in the style of manufacture of the core material. A “Bar and Plate”-Style Core is made by brazing up a layered structure of flat plates separated by small rectangular spacers. A “Tube and Flange”-Style Core is created by extending a series of tubes through a header flange and brazing the assembly together. For heavy duty applications, pressure spikes up to 250 psig and rugged environments, ”Solid Extruded Tube”-Style Cores are available.
Does one style core cool better than another?No, almost no difference. With three decades of testing intercooler’s, we have found no appreciable difference between any core style or manufacturer. Keep in mind, that the merit of a core is it’s efficiency versus its internal drag characteristics. When sized for a tolerable flow loss, virtually all cores will produce essentially the same efficiency results. Perhaps a core with slightly less flow area per linear inch, or one with longer tubes, will need perhaps 5% more tubes to equal the best of intercooler’s with regard to flow loss and efficiency. Not a very important difference.
What ranges of efficiency can be expected from an intercooler?
A typical air-to-air intercooler for a street application achieves between 60% and 70% efficiency, an excellent/optimum design for road racing can approach close to 90% efficiency, but requires an adequate "budget!”
Typically, a liquid-to-air intercooler achieves higher efficiencies than an air-to-air intercooler, starting at 75% efficiency and reaching peaks of 95% efficiency. Another advantage is the optional use of ice as a coolant, which is the only way to reduce the charge-air temperature below the ambient air temperature.
Typically, a liquid-to-air intercooler achieves higher efficiencies than an air-to-air intercooler, starting at 75% efficiency and reaching peaks of 95% efficiency. Another advantage is the optional use of ice as a coolant, which is the only way to reduce the charge-air temperature below the ambient air temperature.
06-20-2005, 09:32 AM
#18
Core type determines restriction, both to the radiator(FMIC) and to the charge air(all types). Charge air restrictions should be a concern to SCers more so then turbos.
The PWR core I saw was designed for high boost small 4cylinders and definitely not suitable for low boost SCers due to only about 25% passage of air through a small internal volume.
The PWR core I saw was designed for high boost small 4cylinders and definitely not suitable for low boost SCers due to only about 25% passage of air through a small internal volume.
06-20-2005, 09:45 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Core type determines restriction, both to the radiator(FMIC) and to the charge air(all types). Charge air restrictions should be a concern to SCers more so then turbos.
The PWR core I saw was designed for high boost small 4cylinders and definitely not suitable for low boost SCers due to only about 25% passage of air through a small internal volume.
The PWR core I saw was designed for high boost small 4cylinders and definitely not suitable for low boost SCers due to only about 25% passage of air through a small internal volume.
I'm switching to the 3.125" pulley, so my max boost should be about 11psi. Don't know if pressure loss will be more or less than 1.1psi with 11 going in. OF course I will measure and report my results when done - I'm waiting to get some more mail order bits.
06-20-2005, 10:13 AM
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Found an interesting calulator for boost temperatures at www.rbracing-rsr.com.
It calculated that at 80 degrees ambient air, and boost of 11 psi, air temp at SC outlet would be 172 degrees. 90% efficiency of IC drops this to 89 degrees. Now I just need to find an ideal gas law calculator to determine what the air mass differential is between 89 degrees at 9.9 psi versus 172 degrees at 11 psi; to see if there is a net boost gain or loss from IC....or I need to find someone who remembers high school physics!
It calculated that at 80 degrees ambient air, and boost of 11 psi, air temp at SC outlet would be 172 degrees. 90% efficiency of IC drops this to 89 degrees. Now I just need to find an ideal gas law calculator to determine what the air mass differential is between 89 degrees at 9.9 psi versus 172 degrees at 11 psi; to see if there is a net boost gain or loss from IC....or I need to find someone who remembers high school physics!
06-20-2005, 10:41 AM
#21
If the IC drop is rated at 1.1psi@7psi, the drop will be more above that.
1.1psi@7psi is high compared to typical FMIC at 1-1.5psi@1bar above ambient as I expected. However, your setup will have much less charge piping volume and intercooler core volume to pressurize along with bends that cause pressure drops, so the net result may be similar. Definitely going to be interesting to see the delta psi.
Any chance PWR rates them for higher pressures?
1.1psi@7psi is high compared to typical FMIC at 1-1.5psi@1bar above ambient as I expected. However, your setup will have much less charge piping volume and intercooler core volume to pressurize along with bends that cause pressure drops, so the net result may be similar. Definitely going to be interesting to see the delta psi.
Any chance PWR rates them for higher pressures?
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