guys i read all of the stickies and can't really make up my mind on which way to go. My goals are 350 whp, but I want to do it reliably. Which way is more expensive? What are your opinions on what I should do? And, Is the power with the S/C always there, or do i have to wait like spooling for a turbo? I already have a budget for $4k and Neal had explained to me that will only cover 5-6 psi pushin 260-ish to the wheels, for a turbo. How about a supercharger ?

 

If you truly don't want lag, go ahead and try and copy Craig Mack...do a roots-style setup.

Reliability and non-factory forced induction don't really go together, however. I'm not saying that you'll have tons of problems...but you might if you don't know how to work on the setup yourself after it's all said and done.

 

It will cost you more to get to 350whp with a supercharger than with a turbo. 350whp with a supercharger takes a ton of work, only a few people have been able to do it.

Also a 350whp stillen SC maxima would get smacked around pretty hard by a 350whp turbo maxima. Peak #s don't mean much.

 

This is exactly why a custom supercharger setup isn't for me. Alot of people told me to go supercharged, but I feel I would be better with a turbo setup, even tho it requires more maintance.

 

PSI for PSI the turbo will give you a lot of torque and HP. You can attain 350/345 hp/tq. How ever be ready to spend. A nice turbo kit like PFI's kit is the only kit Id would personally purchase. @ 9.7PSI from a turbo I attained those numbers. To attain 350HP and torque from a SCer youd have to go with a smaller pulley. But is not the same. I am now back from a turbo to a V1 SCer with a 2.87 pulley but is not the same. No where near the same.


Pros about a Turbo it will satisfy all your power hunger needs. $4K is not going to cut it. You need bigger injectors, JS, 3 inch exhaust piping, a good boost controller and a turbo timer.

Cons, it will put more and tear on your car. Heat is a engine killer. I hate the da..... heat the turbo put on my engine!!! I also hate the fact that the 3 inch piping hung very very close to the ground. A bunch of piping that will make a change of tranny or clutch a big pain in the rear.

SCer very easy to install and tune. Much cheaper route then a turbo kit.

Cons to attain the power you want you have to swap pulleys and change belts. Low torque numbers which blow the big one.

 

id really like somone to explain to me why a turbo setup would require more mantnance than a SC considering the blower runs off a belt that seems to never be alined right which leads to screading and then ofcourse theres the melted pulleys

if the turbo setup is done right it should be MORE reliable than a blower plain and simple but i think alot of the reliability issue come from the installer and ofcourse tuning

 

Turbo is oil cooled and lubed. You better check up on your car. Also that heat will destroy your oil. A oil change from a turbo charged car looks burnt black and that is with a oil cooler. Also since we dont water cool the turbos they dont last very long. At least on turbonetics BB turbos I think they are a Straight SH^T. Customer service is 100 times worse then Vortec. The strong pressure of a turbo will blow your pipes off easily so you may want to check and ensure your pipes are secure.

 

what's wrong with turbonetics bb turbos just curious!!!

 

I could only imagine that the heat from those turbos will pretty much bake the holy hell outta everything in the engine bay... I mean I've seen those fuccers glowing red!!

 

It depends on how you drive them also, they only get AMAZINGLY hot if you drive your car hard for a couple hours.

 

since u guys are pros it seems, how high is the risk up fcukin up a 4th gen maxima with 120k miles while runnin a turbo at lets say 4-6 psi? is it even worth it to run a turbo a 4psi? about how much would that put a maxima at the wheels? its basically the main thing holding me bak from going f.i., dont wanna kill my car anytime soon, but i figure 4-6 psi wont hurt too much

 

4 psi would make a huge difference, you'd be amazed. Just take all the precautions, keep your oil cool, keep your engine cool, don't constantly reem the **** out of your car, and you should be fine. These engines are very durable, and handle boost really well.

 

If installed correctly and aligned correctly you will never have any problems with belts on the SC'er. Also the cause for melted pullies usually means the belt is over tightened. With a SC'er the weather doesn't effect the tune bc it builds boost by rpm so the tune will never change substantially. Also there aren't any heat issues with a SC'er to cause over heating.

Now with a turbo you have to worry about heat big time. Non IC'ed and over 5psi its a big boom waiting to happen which isn't the case with a SC'er. Also the under hood temps skyrocket with a turbo which isn't as big a factor with a SC'er. Turbo tunes can change big time with temp and atmosphere changes which will not affect SC'ed cars nearly as much.

Its a given that turbos will make more HP and quite a bit more torque but the statement about them being more reliable is pure fiction strictly concerning Maximas.

 

Not everyones SCer here on .org shreds belt regularly. If installed correctly or shimmed properly it should not have a problem. Most guys here favor the V1 and after working a V1 plate I can now see why. It is very very simple to work on. The V2 is the one with the plastic pullies melting. A smaller pulley and a very tight belt will melt right thru those pullies. But thats a simple fix. Call ASP and order the metal pullies.

Like someone said up there hot temps is not going to make a turbo perform better. A turbo car performs best in cool weather. Hot outside and under the hood is not good for the car.

The SCer on the other hand is not going to kill your car with heat. If its so freaking hot outside you can spray some water/alcohol or a 25 wet shot to cool it down. Its not going to hurt the car any.

Another thing about the turbo is that if you dont install it properly it will melt alot of stuff surrounding it. Ooh yes it will I promise you.

The bottom line is whatever you decide to do, learn how to do it yourself and understand what is going on under your hood. If something occurs your not freaking out in the middle of the freeway or street etc...

Turbo set up is far more expensive then a SCer. I dont know why people say is more expensive to go SCer. Is not

Turbo
$4K new turbo kit may come w/good intercooler or not
$200-350 injectors
$375 emanage
$500 good gauges
$600-900 3 inch exhaust
$550-600 electronic boost controller
Installation costs are out of the window for a turbo and its way more labor to install a turbo then a SCer. Drilling of the upper oil pan is required and some drilling and cutting to install piping and intercooler.

SCer
$2800 kit used
$200-350 injectors
$700 JWT ECU or $375 plus emanage
$600-900 3 inch exhaust
$500 good guages

Install is not as hard as Turbo. For the CAI some cutting is required.
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you guys can do the Math. You can customize your own turbo kit. But what you pay for is what you get.

 

The only time i have problems on my car is when i f^^k w/ it.

 

Wait you quote the price on a new turbo kit and all the bells and whistles but then quote a used SC kit... that is a little misleading. You certainly don't need all that stuff you quoted in the turbo pricing to get just 350whp. And there's always a possibility of you getting a used turbo kit for less than the cost of a new PFI kit, or making a kit yourself (not one of the janky POS $1000 hack jobs but a nice, DIY kit).

Lookin for 350whp and 350tq out of an SC is just not gonna happen easily. 350hp can happen but most of the guys who have gotten 350hp out of an SC are guys who have put ALOT more money into the kit that the SC price quote your put up there, and they still aren't making 350tq. You don't need a $600 boost controller, you need a $15 wastegate spring. You don't need a $900 3" exhaust, you could use a regular 2.5" catback and a $50 cutout, etc.

The cost of NA vs SC vs Turbo is algebra. Turbo costs more initially but at some point, making X amount of power on turbo costs less than making it with SC, which in turn is less than making it with NA. 350whp is not difficult with a turbo kit, but it is the extreme upper limit of what 3.0 guys are getting with FULLY decked out SC kits.

My question to styles would be are you still planning on a 3.5 or built 3.5 or just sticking with the 3.0. Because you don't need a built 3.5 if 350-400hp is all you are gonna run.

BTW all the HP numbers I was giving you earlier stylez, the 260whp on 6psi, etc, those were all 3.0 numbers, sorry for confusing you. The 3.5 numbers will be much higher obviously as we discussed in PM.

 

Your right a $15 boost controller is good enough. Come winter time and the the turbo spikes an extra unwanted 3 PSI then theres another issue. I went from the very expensive SBC-ID to the Greddy Profec E01 which is an excellent unit that knocks a percentage off a spike. Both Electronic BCs have warning settings in there. A $15 BC has no warning. When your handling your business on the street or track is hard to monitor EGTS, RPMs and boost all at the same time. It is much simple if you get a beep or a buzzer blinking red.

Your right you dont have to get expensive items. You can go the economic route. I see it all the time. In the end you end up paying twice as much have you just gone the expensive route from the begining.

With a SCer I highly doubt you see any of these guys attain 350ft lbs of torque. The only way to attain a high torque number with a SCer is spraying it to cool the charge. And if thats what is going to take then that is what I will do. Is nice to have alot of tq like the turbo so you can peel away from those pesty V8s.

 

Why did you change sides Jay?

 

You still don't need to spend $600 on a boost controller to get a boost warning. My $100 blitz boost gauge has a visual and audible warning built in.

As far as economic route - read what I said again. I wasn't talking about getting cheap crappy stuff. I was talking about not having the 24K gold plated items you listed in the setup cost. 3" exhaust is nice, but not necessary, etc. 2.5" + cutout is cheaper and gives more power. Make it an electronic cutout for another $120 bucks and you've got the ability to open it at the flip of a switch.

 

24K gold items WTF? a cut out is fine. People have the freedom to buy what ever they want. I seen my peers do certain things and then end up spending twice as much in the end. Its all personal preferences and choices. Reliablity is what people target. Its always best to be safe then sorry. To be better safe then sorry IMO I rather get something thats pretty accurate from the begining. I dont like to take junk apart because some other item did not function properly. And then you have the young crowd that are afraid because they dont have the funds.

Can you point who has attained high numbers with a good reliable turbo kit? aside from PFIs kit? I know of only one person that did it. That is after they cleaned up Hals home made turbo kit.

 

Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not saying a boost controller isn't a good thing to have. I'm just saying it's not a necessity. About the boost creep thing, I don't have any direct experience with boost creep on wastgate only because the only 2 cars using just the wastegate to regulate boost didn't have appreciable differences in boost #s between hot and cold weather, and myself I've got a boost controller so it's not an issue for me. Does the PFI kit come with a Deltagate?

And yeah turbonetics turbos are kindof iffy... I wouldn't buy one to put on my car.

 

As far as economy, I've pretty much put my entire turbo kit together for less than a grand. I found some kill deals though, I doubt everyone could put one together this cheap, but:

GN Turbo (t33a?) - $250
Intercooler - $100
Piping - $100 (witout welds)
Boost Cont. - $95 or so (ebay willing)
Oil cooler lines and fittings - $85 with Neal's suggestion
Offbrand SSQBOV - $75
Cartech FMU - $100
300ZX TTInjectors - Free off friends blown engine
Labor - $10-20 in coffee and Dr. Pepper

That entire kit only has 2 used parts, the Turbo (in which has been rebuilt) and the FMU (fellow orger). Now I understand that for high boost applications, some of my choices there wouldn't be as smart - but for a small load, that will happily boost me 4-8 psi.

 

My 24K gold joke was a reference to the high end stuff that high horsepower guys need to get.

PFI's kit is the only "kit" I know of. All the guys I can think of with homemade kits are primarily 3rd gens. I'm gearing this conversation towards the guys who are interested in making a homemade kit, who are on a budget and want 300 or 350whp, not the people running 450ish like some of us do. If you want big power you've got to get more things, but that's NOT what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about lower HP lvls like those lvls seen with a typical SC kit, the 300-350hp range. That's what this whole conversation has been about, turbo vs SC, not who can make the most horsepower.

 

I say first look at your finances. If you have enough money to go Turbo and still have money left over for things to go wrong then shoot, go for the turbo, you will be happier in the end. You never know what's going to happen when you go turbo, it puts allot of stress on your motor and that can cause things to go wrong. Another thing you have to look at when going turbo or any FI for that matter is that you need to have it properly tuned, that alone will solve allot of issues in the end. but from the sound of things it seems you want something that will be reliable so I say go SC.

 

Yea Neal,

What psi are you at to get 450hp, I just want to know because I should be heading back to SGP to get retune this weekend and that is my goal. I had to replace my radiator and fans cause of some over heating issues.

 

Ya, they dont sell them anymore remember ^^ heh

 

Yep I do know that they don't sell the kit anymore.

Royal T I have not dynod my car but based on my trap speeds at lower psi lvls I'd make an educated guess that I'm putting between 425 and 450psi down at 1bar. I trapped over 115 spinning until I hit 4th gear on 11.8psi, and I trapped 113 spinning until 4th and shifting at 5000rpm at 11.8psi as well (I ran 4th gear out across the line which was like 5600 iirc but the 1,2,3 shift happened as close to 5000 as I could make it, which was not easy with the wheelspin I was getting for 1000' or so.)

 

GOT SLICKS?

 

Got Axels??

 

Aside from PFI, are there even any turbo kits out there? CM tried, I was going to release one then dropped the project, Hal's stuff was homemade.

Having said that, I'm still running my turbo setup and making good numbers, even w/ the auto. I've had less problems with the turbo than I ever did with the SC. But it is more money up front.

 

Not anymore I sold mine like 2 years ago, but if the car is back in running shape by mid september I'll have a new set for Battle of the Imports.

Axles no I've got stock axles still. I'm going to try some new launching techniques to minimize driveline shock too. Going to try to launch it more like an auto does. Not sure if it will work but I'm going to try. I don't want to break a worked over LSD trans...

 

Thanks guys for all the input. I am going to go turbo route and take it little byt little. Im not going to start anything until i Have all the money to start. So, I figure I need a good 5, 5.5K. Also, With the 2.5' cutout, how does that produce more power than a 3" exhaust. And how does that actually work? Does it open up when spooling begins ? Is this like the concept of U-tec(not sure to what is called) on STI's? And Neil, I'm going to be going the 3.0 way, too much money for swap, I Have 98K on my motor. I will Def. have to rebuild tranny, with upgraded clutch. Is it possible to do double synchro 1st, 2nd, and 3rd on our trannies ? Also, the thing that confuses me is to tune my car, what do i need? Are injectors, SAFC, Greddy E-Manage, JWT ECU, FMU, all needed ? With everything below is mid-high 12's realistic with nice drag radials ?

So end result: 10-12 PSI =

1.JWT ECU(7200rpm), 00VI, Performance Clutch
1. PFI Turbo Kit
2. Upgrade Fuel components to better tune
3.Cutout exhaust or 3" turbo back
4. Very good tune
5. Boost controller, Air Fuel, Egt guages

 

Our trans already has double synchros on 1st and 2nd. Sure it's possible to do one on 3rd but I have no idea how you would go about doing it. Anything is possible with enough money though haha.

Do a 3" downpipe to the cutout and then do a 2.5" after. The electronic cutout just opens when you flip a switch. Manual one you just have to undo the bolts, and there is a boost controlled one out there too that opens when you reach a certain amt of boost.

You will be able to pull 12s out of that without a problem if you can drive at all. As far as the other stuff you need to choose between SAFC, Emanage, JWT ECU (I would not even TOUCH a JWT ECU right now with all the problems and BS they have been giving the boosted community). FMU depends on what injectors you decide to go with. Emanage ultimate is looking like the winner at this point. I may end up scrapping emanage for EU.

 

If you scrap it, why don't you give me a buzz- lol.

 

One other thing you might want to get is a Boost-A-Spark. I also think the Emanage Ultimate is the way to go, I think i might scrap mine and go this route or even go F-Con. Also you might as well get bigger injectors you can never have to much

 

damn it neal you just had to say that huh lol i just bought one

 

so i would need an fmu for 350 injectors ? SO if i get 350 injectors, I would get emanage ultimate and a FMU ? Thats all ? Also, whats the point in getting a Z32 MAF ?

 

unless your last fill up as $47.52 (like me)

StyleZ-350 WHA?

 

you proboly meen 370cc injectors from a 95-96 300zx

 

yah sorry thats what i meant... so whats the best way to go fuel wise ?