TRE transmission build is complete
08-26-2005, 10:34 AM
#1
TRE transmission build is complete
Picked up my built LSD trans from Team Rip Engineering today. TRE probably the most prolific of the DSM transmission builders, along with ShepRacing. TRE has their transmissions in a number of 8, 9, and 10 second DSMs and Evos including David Buschurs’ cars and Kiggley’s low 9 second, probably capable of 8s now that it’s 5 speed, FWD, automatic DSM. Their website is www.teamrip.com if anyone wants to check it out. They have lots of good info about what various procedures do for your trans, the equipment they use, what they are able to do to transmissions to beef them up, etc.
Going to be putting the trans in Saturday hopefully. Here is a rundown of the overall cost of this project and what I had done.
-2001 AE VLSD 5spd trans w/ new shims, diff bearings, seals - $500 – Purchased off friend
-2001 AE VLSD 5spd driver’s side axle – $130 – some salvage yard in Houston, TX
-General disassembly/assembly, wear inspection, magnafluxing, blueprinting, gear detailing – $390 (6 hours @ $65/hour cash rate) - TRE
-Cryogenic treating of gears – $175 outsourced by TRE - (said it was actually a little more but since he quoted me $175 that’s what he charged me, cryo treating pricing is done by the weight of the parts being treated)
-3rd gear hub sleeve/synchro, all snap rings in trans, roll pin – $155 -- South Point Nissan (DAVEB the parts guy)
-Redline Shockproof Heavy gear oil - $45 – Summit Racing
The rest of my drivetrain consists of Clutchnet 6-puck sprung hub disk, ACT 2600# pressure plate, stock axles.
Here’s what I learned about our trans and trans’ building in general throughout the project, from TRE and other sources.
The first thing Jon and Ming (owner and chief trans builder at TRE) said when they opened up my trans was “wow those gears are dainty.” He said the gears look like Honda gears, i.e. not very thick and with very fine teeth on them. For instance a DSM 3rd gear on the main shaft is about 19mm thick, our main shaft 3rd gear is 14.3mm thick. That’s not very good for power handling. Our gear teeth are quite small as well, also not good for power handling. We do have a double synchro on 1st and 2nd gear though which is nice. TRE adds a custom double synchro to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in all their DSM trans buidups because DSM trans don’t come with double synchros.
Cryo treating does not do much for increasing the strength of the gears TRE said, perhaps a 5-10% increase. It does however increase wear resistance substantially, so your gears don’t wear as quickly. I opted not to shot peen the gears as I was informed they are already shot peened from the factory, TRE said there’s no point in shot peening them again.
Gear detailing is the most effective way to strengthen the gears. Gear detailing involves using a die grinder to radius the sharp edges and any manufacturing slag/defects off each tooth of each gear, a very labor intensive process. It takes about 3 hours for them to detail a set of 5 speed gears. Once the sharp edges are gone, it gets rid of the high pressure points they create at the very edges of the gear teeth, which is where most gear failure occurs. These sharp edges break off which starts a chain reaction as the gears turn against each other, chewing themselves to pieces and possibly doing the same to other gears if large chunks of metal get in the gear teeth.
Jon and Ming were both a little worried about the torque I told them I’d be putting through the trans (450ish on turbo, 500-600 on spray if I decide to spray again), based on the size of the gears and gear teeth. They advised going easy on the 2-3 shift, since I told them 3rd gear is what usually breaks for people. They did basically all they can do without making me a custom gearset (which they have the ability to do) but still advised diligence going into 3rd gear. They said how you treat a transmission has just as much to do with how long it lasts as how much work and money you put into building it up.
I’ll post up when I’ve got the trans in the car and running.
Going to be putting the trans in Saturday hopefully. Here is a rundown of the overall cost of this project and what I had done.
-2001 AE VLSD 5spd trans w/ new shims, diff bearings, seals - $500 – Purchased off friend
-2001 AE VLSD 5spd driver’s side axle – $130 – some salvage yard in Houston, TX
-General disassembly/assembly, wear inspection, magnafluxing, blueprinting, gear detailing – $390 (6 hours @ $65/hour cash rate) - TRE
-Cryogenic treating of gears – $175 outsourced by TRE - (said it was actually a little more but since he quoted me $175 that’s what he charged me, cryo treating pricing is done by the weight of the parts being treated)
-3rd gear hub sleeve/synchro, all snap rings in trans, roll pin – $155 -- South Point Nissan (DAVEB the parts guy)
-Redline Shockproof Heavy gear oil - $45 – Summit Racing
The rest of my drivetrain consists of Clutchnet 6-puck sprung hub disk, ACT 2600# pressure plate, stock axles.
Here’s what I learned about our trans and trans’ building in general throughout the project, from TRE and other sources.
The first thing Jon and Ming (owner and chief trans builder at TRE) said when they opened up my trans was “wow those gears are dainty.” He said the gears look like Honda gears, i.e. not very thick and with very fine teeth on them. For instance a DSM 3rd gear on the main shaft is about 19mm thick, our main shaft 3rd gear is 14.3mm thick. That’s not very good for power handling. Our gear teeth are quite small as well, also not good for power handling. We do have a double synchro on 1st and 2nd gear though which is nice. TRE adds a custom double synchro to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in all their DSM trans buidups because DSM trans don’t come with double synchros.
Cryo treating does not do much for increasing the strength of the gears TRE said, perhaps a 5-10% increase. It does however increase wear resistance substantially, so your gears don’t wear as quickly. I opted not to shot peen the gears as I was informed they are already shot peened from the factory, TRE said there’s no point in shot peening them again.
Gear detailing is the most effective way to strengthen the gears. Gear detailing involves using a die grinder to radius the sharp edges and any manufacturing slag/defects off each tooth of each gear, a very labor intensive process. It takes about 3 hours for them to detail a set of 5 speed gears. Once the sharp edges are gone, it gets rid of the high pressure points they create at the very edges of the gear teeth, which is where most gear failure occurs. These sharp edges break off which starts a chain reaction as the gears turn against each other, chewing themselves to pieces and possibly doing the same to other gears if large chunks of metal get in the gear teeth.
Jon and Ming were both a little worried about the torque I told them I’d be putting through the trans (450ish on turbo, 500-600 on spray if I decide to spray again), based on the size of the gears and gear teeth. They advised going easy on the 2-3 shift, since I told them 3rd gear is what usually breaks for people. They did basically all they can do without making me a custom gearset (which they have the ability to do) but still advised diligence going into 3rd gear. They said how you treat a transmission has just as much to do with how long it lasts as how much work and money you put into building it up.
I’ll post up when I’ve got the trans in the car and running.
08-26-2005, 12:33 PM
#4
I have no idea on the custom gearset. I know a custom 1st-4th synchromesh gearset from PAR for an SR20 is about $3200 (US dollars), I would guess a totally custom, one-off gearset would be more like $4000 or $5000. Certainly not something I'd ever consider. He wasn't suggesting that I get custom gears he was just making the point that "this is as good as it gets" without getting custom gears.
My total cost at TRE was $565. I don't know if that was a hookup price or not, the normal labor rate listed on their invoices is $85/hr but he only charged me $65/hour because I was paying cash and was local.
My total cost at TRE was $565. I don't know if that was a hookup price or not, the normal labor rate listed on their invoices is $85/hr but he only charged me $65/hour because I was paying cash and was local.
08-26-2005, 02:34 PM
#5
I didn't know the gears were shot peened from the factory. Where did you hear this? Good to know if this is true.
Could they do a custom double syncro for 3rd and 4th for our trannies? Would that help us to not blow 3rd gear as easily? I thought the 5th gen trannies had a doube syncro for 3rd too and that was one of the reasons they were supposedly stronger, but I can't find anything about that now.
Could they do a custom double syncro for 3rd and 4th for our trannies? Would that help us to not blow 3rd gear as easily? I thought the 5th gen trannies had a doube syncro for 3rd too and that was one of the reasons they were supposedly stronger, but I can't find anything about that now.
08-26-2005, 02:56 PM
#6
5th gen does not have double synchro third unless the FSM fails to mention it, it says double synchro 1st and 2nd but makes no mention of third. I don't know what differentiates a double synchro from a single physically, but I've got a 3rd gear hub/synchro sitting in my garage right now (the old one that I had replaced).
I'm sure they wouldn't bother designing a new synchro for us honestly. The 5 or 8 people on this site who would buy one would hardly be worth the engineering effort to design a part from scratch and then tool up to machine it. To give you some idea of the volume they deal with for DSMs, he has usually turns out 4-5 transmissions a day. So they sell more double synchros for 3rd gear every two days for DSMs/Evos than they would likely sell - ever - for our car.
I'm sure they wouldn't bother designing a new synchro for us honestly. The 5 or 8 people on this site who would buy one would hardly be worth the engineering effort to design a part from scratch and then tool up to machine it. To give you some idea of the volume they deal with for DSMs, he has usually turns out 4-5 transmissions a day. So they sell more double synchros for 3rd gear every two days for DSMs/Evos than they would likely sell - ever - for our car.
08-26-2005, 03:12 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
I have no idea on the custom gearset. I know a custom 1st-4th synchromesh gearset from PAR for an SR20 is about $3200 (US dollars), I would guess a totally custom, one-off gearset would be more like $4000 or $5000. Certainly not something I'd ever consider. He wasn't suggesting that I get custom gears he was just making the point that "this is as good as it gets" without getting custom gears.
My total cost at TRE was $565. I don't know if that was a hookup price or not, the normal labor rate listed on their invoices is $85/hr but he only charged me $65/hour because I was paying cash and was local.
My total cost at TRE was $565. I don't know if that was a hookup price or not, the normal labor rate listed on their invoices is $85/hr but he only charged me $65/hour because I was paying cash and was local.
Wow
, I don't think I'm going custom gearset rout either with that pice tag. I'll see how this works out for you and if it works out great, I'll be lookn in to doing this.Thanks
08-26-2005, 05:36 PM
#9
Yes 120 days material and workmanship. Since they didn't really put any custom parts in it there's not much to warranty, unless they messed up detailing a gear or installing some part, something of that nature.
If you are wondering whether they will warranty it if I just break it due to hard shifting, too much power, hard launches, etc, no, they don't, unless the break happens to be because of something they screwed up I gather.
If you are wondering whether they will warranty it if I just break it due to hard shifting, too much power, hard launches, etc, no, they don't, unless the break happens to be because of something they screwed up I gather.
08-26-2005, 08:07 PM
#11
Sounds like a good deal Neal, Im sure it will hold allot more power than stock.
I do need to speak up about the shotpeening, I feel differently than your shop does. Detailing usually means polishing and deburring the gear teeth. If you remove material you are eating into the factory shotpeening. Shotpeening only effects the 'skin' of the metal. So detailing could remove shotpeened material in critical areas. Mike Kijoma and the SR20 boys all shotpeen after cryo on Nissan gears. Cryo makes the metal brittle, shotpening reinforces the 'skin' to prevent cracks. Shotpeening would have been under $100 additional.
Regardless I'm sure this box will last longer than a stock box.
I do need to speak up about the shotpeening, I feel differently than your shop does. Detailing usually means polishing and deburring the gear teeth. If you remove material you are eating into the factory shotpeening. Shotpeening only effects the 'skin' of the metal. So detailing could remove shotpeened material in critical areas. Mike Kijoma and the SR20 boys all shotpeen after cryo on Nissan gears. Cryo makes the metal brittle, shotpening reinforces the 'skin' to prevent cracks. Shotpeening would have been under $100 additional.
Regardless I'm sure this box will last longer than a stock box.
08-26-2005, 08:37 PM
#12
Yeah shot peen is only $75. I asked about it numerous times, because I knew that's what you had done. I was told repeatedly by both Ming and Jon that it was not necessary. I hadn't thought about the gear detailing affecting it, but it was my understanding that cryo treating makes the material brittle like you said, and that shot peen relieves brittleness again. I probably asked 4 times if they thought I should shot peen the gears, I even asked "doesn't cryo treating make the gears brittle so they should be shot peened afterwards?" and the answer from Jon was a flat out "no." 
They list shot peening in their normal services for their DSM buildups, but he told me over and over that because it has been shot peened from the factory it was not needed. I'm kindof wishing I had gotten it done, but I'm already thinking of a 3.65 final drive and 5th gear from an Altima to give the car longer legs, so if I end up doing those I will have them shot peen the gears. Hopefully by the time the car goes away for the winter I will have put some hard runs on it, so maybe over the winter I will do those gears and have the whole shebang wet magnafluxed again to check for cracks, and then have them hit with the shot.
They list shot peening in their normal services for their DSM buildups, but he told me over and over that because it has been shot peened from the factory it was not needed. I'm kindof wishing I had gotten it done, but I'm already thinking of a 3.65 final drive and 5th gear from an Altima to give the car longer legs, so if I end up doing those I will have them shot peen the gears. Hopefully by the time the car goes away for the winter I will have put some hard runs on it, so maybe over the winter I will do those gears and have the whole shebang wet magnafluxed again to check for cracks, and then have them hit with the shot.
08-28-2005, 08:31 PM
#14
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
5th gen does not have double synchro third unless the FSM fails to mention it, it says double synchro 1st and 2nd but makes no mention of third. I don't know what differentiates a double synchro from a single physically, but I've got a 3rd gear hub/synchro sitting in my garage right now (the old one that I had replaced).
I'm sure they wouldn't bother designing a new synchro for us honestly. The 5 or 8 people on this site who would buy one would hardly be worth the engineering effort to design a part from scratch and then tool up to machine it. To give you some idea of the volume they deal with for DSMs, he has usually turns out 4-5 transmissions a day. So they sell more double synchros for 3rd gear every two days for DSMs/Evos than they would likely sell - ever - for our car.
I'm sure they wouldn't bother designing a new synchro for us honestly. The 5 or 8 people on this site who would buy one would hardly be worth the engineering effort to design a part from scratch and then tool up to machine it. To give you some idea of the volume they deal with for DSMs, he has usually turns out 4-5 transmissions a day. So they sell more double synchros for 3rd gear every two days for DSMs/Evos than they would likely sell - ever - for our car.
Although the lack of demand is a typical excuse for any maxima part (which is often times true) the RS5F50A/V is also shared with a few other Nissan cars including the KA24 Altima, not that they would really have too much demand either. It was just an idea.
08-28-2005, 09:33 PM
#16
Originally Posted by slimer
neal-is the reason why you want to use the altima gear is that you want try and walk brian on the highway?
I won't be able to do anything to Brian on the highway no matter what I do most likely, unless I spray.
08-29-2005, 05:46 AM
#17
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
No I want the altima diff so I can minimize traction problems in the first 3 gears. The other nice thing about them is that altima 5th and 3.65 final would have me at 3000rpm at 80mph instead of 3300 which would be cool.
I won't be able to do anything to Brian on the highway no matter what I do most likely, unless I spray.
I won't be able to do anything to Brian on the highway no matter what I do most likely, unless I spray.
08-29-2005, 06:10 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by Nealoc187
No I want the altima diff so I can minimize traction problems in the first 3 gears. The other nice thing about them is that altima 5th and 3.65 final would have me at 3000rpm at 80mph instead of 3300 which would be cool.
I won't be able to do anything to Brian on the highway no matter what I do most likely, unless I spray.
I won't be able to do anything to Brian on the highway no matter what I do most likely, unless I spray.
There are no "less aggressive" final drives available for our VLSD's. The only way to gear down is to get some beefy tires. A fat sidewall and increased patch would help at the same time.
08-29-2005, 06:29 AM
#19
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
Picked up my built LSD trans from Team Rip Engineering today. TRE probably the most prolific of the DSM transmission builders, along with ShepRacing. TRE has their transmissions in a number of 8, 9, and 10 second DSMs and Evos including David Buschurs’ cars and Kiggley’s low 9 second, probably capable of 8s now that it’s 5 speed, FWD, automatic DSM. Their website is www.teamrip.com if anyone wants to check it out. They have lots of good info about what various procedures do for your trans, the equipment they use, what they are able to do to transmissions to beef them up, etc.
08-29-2005, 11:57 AM
#20
The teeth would stay the same height, but without the nasty sharp, misshapen edges that they come with from the manufacturing process. The surfaces should sit flush against eachother now, rather than before just the high points of the edge of the gear teeth contacting the other gear and creating super high stresses in a very small area. I will see if I can find a before and after pic of a detailed gear to post up. But my connection is messed up right now so I'm on dialup, I'll have to wait til tonight to search through images otherwise it will take me all afternoon and I'm supposed to be working haha.
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