Just a thought. Us ve guys need to quiet down out VTC assemblies. A common thing is to have them clack at start up. We have a quality filter available in the 6U00 and the Toyota filter. But what about viscosities.

Common choices are 5w30, 10w30, 10w40. We wont' discuss 50 or 20 weights.

Now a 10w won't be as viscous as a 5w. But I wonder if the 10w would help hold oil pressure inside the oil filter(thicker) vs a thinner 5w. My thoughts are the 10w might now flow as "easy" but it might allow the filter to "hold" more oil/pressure after you stop the engine. Thus more oil is available sooner when you start the car back up.

NE1?

The oil is flowing at the 30/40 weights when the car is warm. But once the engine is off, the oil should start going back into it's cold weight 5w/10w after xx minutes.

 

How about we mix 2qts of 5w and 2qts of 10w?

Actually, I would think the 5w is best, although it might not provide oil at immediate start up. From what I know our biggest problem is clogged passage to the VTC's, am I correct? So, thicker would only add to it once the oil gets older. If the passages are fine then the thinner 5w should get up there ok.

Has anyone thought of opening the passages more? On the old Ford V8s there are certain tricks you do to increase oil pressure. Opening up the passage out of the oil filter is the biggest.

 

actually if I am not mistaken opening up a hole will increase volume but lower pressure if you keep the same pump.

Jeff I am not sure it would matter if you use a filter with an antidrain back valve. i think the Toyota one has it but am not sure. With the antidrain back valve the oil is going to be in the top of the motor anyway. Of course I dont actually know for sure just "think" that is how it works.

Filters are one (of many LOL) thing I dont know a whole lot about.

 

What about a 0 weight oil, like the German Castrol (the green stuff) that's 0w30 or Mobil 0w40? Being a 0 weight, I would think it would get to the VTC assembly much quicker. Also, has anyone tried auto-rx (www.auto-rx.com) to open up the oil passages and clean the VTC assembly? There's tons of good things said about the stuff at www.bobistheoilguy.com I'm trying it right now, but I have a VG, so I can't tell you if it will help the ticking VTC or not.

 

Yeah, as long as the filter has a quality anti-drain back valve, oil should still be in the top-half gallies, regardless of viscosity.

I just did a motor flush today before changing the oil, I've been doing this about every 2nd or 3rd oil change. Also since I have switch for the VTC's I can cycle them on/off while the motor flush solution is in their. fyi, I don't reccomend any of you high mileage people doing a motor flush.

 

Why wouldn't you recommend an oil flush? Is it because the extra crud in the motor actually seals the motor up in a way or what? I think I've heard someone say that before. I was just curious.

 

Well picture flakes and chips of crud comming off, and plugging the oil pick up screen. That is ofcourse worst case scenario stuff, if your lucky the motor flush will just dissolve the crud/varnish as it circulates. I started using motor flush when I got the car, around 50k miles.

Most people also do not realize that they have to use a NEW filter while running the motor flush, the problem with using the old filter is that the capacity has already been significantly reduced, so what happens is after running the oil flush and installing new oil and a new filter, the new filter is whats going to trap all the freed up material, so you assume you have fresh oil and a new filter but in reality the new filter is plugging up with varnish particles, and the oil is getting bypassed, so dirty oil is circulating.

 

I'm thinking the thicker 10w would not leak past the anti-drain back valve as easy. Just because there is an anti-drain back valve, it doesn't mean it's able to actually keep oil up in the heads. That's my theory anyway.

 

I started using 10w30, and my VTC's are silent....


... Until the car warms up a little. Then they clatter through all 5 gears, and on the highway, and on streets, and in the driveway, and at idle, and accelerating, and decelerating.....

 

They weren't on during hard acceleration, and if they were, your switch would be pointless because it would be too far along.

"3 weeks anyay"


Jeff, I'm not sure if this is OT or not for the thread, but the springs get weak right? What do you think would happen if we were to cryotreat the srpings (I dont know too much about how it works, is it like quenching metal but instead of using heat it uses coldness?)?

I gave Donald a bunch of pictures of the oil gallies, and really on my torn apart engine they werent clogged at all, 165k and VTC noise. Do you remember what your first engine's looked like?

 

On older cars (GM's) when the valves clatter 20w-50 seem to quiet them. My dad had a beater 84 cutlass that was unbearable above 45 mph, but then he used 20w-50 and that shut them right up. For the most part i would only try it if you live in a hot climate. At Arizona oil change places they'll use 20w-50 in a lot of cars.

 

pipedong.. have you ever thought that your noise is maybe your timing chain tensioners?
I currently am replacing my tensioner for the upper right chain, hile driving i had a chatter, clanging noise, at all speeds/rpm's...turns out the tensioner wasnt pushing against the chain to tighten it up... but, i am yet to verify 100% that it is the tensioner per say, i have to take the right head off (exhaust bolts broken) and will check the passages leading to the tensioner to verify that i dont have a clogged passage. Because i got the tensioner off, and compressed it, it seemed fine..i.e no excessive play in cyclinder, and it was very hard to compress...
just a thought...

btw, if anyone has replaced their tensioner, i was wondering if they checked their oil passage to the tensioner?

 

I'm pretty certain that it is the VTC assemblies making noise, because when I ground them the noise goes away.

My car has so many problems at 120K it's rediculous. I'm swapping the engine out in a few weeks so I'm not even that worried about it right now.

 

Not a bad idea, and one I was sort of thinking about at one time when I was looking at different oil weights.

I used Mobil 1 5w30, which is one of the thinnest oils at room temperature, and a Pure ONE filter before. Recently I've been using the "German" Castrol 0w30 which is actually slightly thicker IIRC with a 60U00 filter.

Both filters are very well made and have good anti-drainback valves (actually I'm pretty sure that all filters the Max can use have ADBVs...) but in BOTH cases I still got valve clatter (not VTC) upon startup sometimes. Not all the time, but fairly often. I just threw up my arms and just put my faith now on good oil and filtration for protecting the engine....

You could always try M1 10w30. I'm pretty sure this oil is as thin as a conventional 5w30 at room temperature so it should work and is supposed to be a very stable weight.

 

For pretty much all these different scenarios, I would always go with the thinnest weight possible, in a full synthetic. Thicker oil moves slower, so it's going to take longer for it to be pumped up to the higher passages in the engine. Startup is the hardest time on an engine for wear, so even though it only lasts a few seconds, the benefits will be felt over the distance. Maybe your VTC will make a little more noise in thinner oil here and there, but if you can reduce the starvation at startup, won't that go a lot further? I don't know, I'm just speculating. I'm not familiar with the reference to "German" Castrol syntec, but Castrol Syntec, even though it's labeled a synthetic, is not completely synthetically derived. It's made by hydrotreating conventional oil, which attemps to chemically change the molecular structure of the oil, to make it more uniform. Full synthetics like Mobil 1 are made from PAO (Polyalphaolaphin), and constructed in the laboratory so that each molecule is truely uniform. Syntec also has the great track record, of when it was first introduced, of coming with an additive which helped it bond to metal. This additive was later found to be hampering the anti-wear additives, and people were experiencing premature engine wear. With that kind of history, it's up to you whether or not you want to trust your engine to the chemical engineers at Castrol, but my money is on the ones at Mobil. Maybe this "German" Castrol is different, so I don't want to go totally off here, because I'm not really sure. But look at all the manufacturers out there that use synthetic as a factory prefil. Porsche uses Mobil 1 I believe, as well as GM in the Corvette, and the LS1 powered HSV Holdens in Australia. Ferarri uses Shell Helix. Is anything available from the factory with Syntec?

I haven't switched to synthetic, or a proper oil filter with a anti flowback valve, so I guess I really shouldn't say too much until I do...that's this week's project, as I've only had the car 2 weeks.

 

actually, mine was clacking and goign ga-ga on me and i ground them...yet it still did it on start up.

well I changed the oil this past weekend to mobil 1 10w30, and the 6oUoo filter (because the retards at the dealership that changed the oil last used the wrong filter..) and it doesn't make a blip on start up. It's completely shut up. I'm going to cut the wire I used to ground them to see if they have really been silenced for good...or at least for a while....

 

The 'German Castrol' as it's known, is a 0W30 oil that is believed to be true synthetic. You have to read the back of the bottle and ensure that it says 'made in Germany' on it. It also meets BMW long life specs, which the regular Syntec does not. Loads of info on it at www.bobistheoilguy.com Just do a search (the search actually works at that site)

 

My post was just a theory so.. but to address your post.

Start up. That's the point. My theory is that the thicker oil won't drain past the anti-drain back valve as much. So while it won't flow as well when cold, it also won't flow BACK into the pan as easy. So what I'm thinking is why wait until the oil pump can put it back into the heads when you might be able to hold the oil up there in the first place.

Why go to such lengths to "guess" if an oil is a true synthetic or not when there are many quality true sythentics on the market right now?? ie. Amsoil, Mobil 1, etc..

Read the fluids section of this site. Has much information

 

Why do you guys believe that thinner oil is better? Just make up your "flowback" theories, you guys are just as clueless. Why is Valvoline's race oil 20w-50? I don't know the answer but atleast i don't pretend to be a chemical engineer.

 

Got up on the wrong side of the bed, eh?

 

If the ADBV is working properly (i.e. preventing drain back) it shouldn't make any difference if the oil is thick or thin, should it??

 

Well my post is about maybe using THICKER oil. Race oil might be more viscous for many reasons. ie.. larger bearing clearances need a thicker oil for oil pressure reasons/oil film thickness reasons etc..

 

Hey,

I don't have near the experience you'll have. However, I just use the nissan filter w/the good ADBV. I haven't had a VTC problem yet (no weird noises @ startup either). I also use Castrol Syntec every change. Is there a site I can read up more on its effects on engine wear? If its as bad as mentioned above, would it be bad to switch to a true synthetic like Mobile 1? What is the 6U00 filter you're talking about? Is that the part # for the nissan filter?

Thanx all,

Lata

 

Sorry all,

Disregard my q's on the 60U00. I read the sticky and it answered 'em all.

 

I've been using 10W30 synthetic for the last 50K and still haven't had any problems with the VTCs. Mine used to make a noise at start-up for less than a sec using the old Nissan VE oil filter and when i switched to the Toyota filter there isn't any noise at all at start-up. I'm at 175K and still haven't had any VTC issues.

 

It all basically is a pay off to gain in one area you lose in another. It may be more a case of finding a happy medium, with oil and filter. 5w30 sounds like the go because after time oil will get past the anti drain valve any way.

Look at what the un-oil sponsered company racing teams use in there cars to see what maybe best. Remember cheap oil will be best in a Honda, while the good oil should be in the Nissan. But oil is still oil there will be very little the different brands. Personal pref. is what is comes down to.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Creedence85
But look at all the manufacturers out there that use synthetic as a factory prefil. Porsche uses Mobil 1 I believe, as well as GM in the Corvette, and the LS1 powered HSV Holdens in Australia. Ferarri uses Shell Helix. Is anything available from the factory with Syntec?
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LS1 engines arn't a good arugment when saying synthetics cause engine wear or what oil is good they have a 1 in 5 death rate, is not a good advert to me. I haven't heard that the synthetics cause premature enginge wear I wouldn't think that racing teams used use the stuff if it didn't work that well. You never know tho as most don't run an engine past 20hrs use.

Rant finished

 

Jeff, I appreciate your theory, but I can't say that I agree. But first let me say your theory is interesting, and I don't mean to knock it, I just happen to not agree with it, and would like to explain why...nothing personal Okay, so, oil is going to flow back no matter what you do, no matter the thickness. When you shut off the engine, the oil is at operating temperature, and will have a much better flow rate then when cold. Once oil pressure is lost, the oil will start to drain. As the engine block will retain heat energy for quite some time, even after the engine is shut off, this will keep the oil quite a bit thinner than at cold, and induce flow over a long period.

We already know that when oil is cold, it doesn't flow as well. When thick oil is cold, it can actually get jelatinous. Therefore, even if there would happen to be more oil remaining in the top of the engine, there would be a period of time where the oil coating those moving parts, is not evenly coating everything, as it's in quite a thicker state, and the oil in the oil pan, being picked up by the punp, would be struggling to get through the pump and to the top of the engine.

I think I still stand on my original point, that even assuming there's going to be reduced flowback with thick oil, the lubrication benefit of thinner oil already coating parts, combined with ease of flow, is going to be substantially better for the engine over the long term. What you may receive in extended VTC life may only lead to increased wear on other engine parts during startup. At this point, I think it's good to decide what is the best course to base on, thicker oil in an attempt to reduce flow rate, which actually hasn't been demonstrated, or years of data which shows that increased oil flow at startup increases engine life.

To the other posts...the whole reason that I went into the rant about Syntec vs. other synthetics was because, unless you can actually find some information on how the oil was made in the first place, just because it says 100% synthetic on the box, doesn't mean it's 100% synthetically derived, and ALL the top synthetic oils on the market are 100% syntheticall derived. I have heard however, that Shell is going to hydrotreat their Helix brand oil, but their new hydrotreating facility is quite advanced, and they claim it meets the same specs. We'll see...

Spazz, I wasn't using the LS1 specifically as a testimony to the benefits of using synthetic oil over the life of an engine. I was merely trying to show that out of all the manufacturers that use synthetic oil as a factory prefil, Syntec doesn't seem to appear. I also never said that synthetics in general cause premature engine wear. What I did say is that the original formula of Castrol Syntec caused premature engine wear, due to a metal bonding agent use in the oil, which negated parts of the anti-wear additive. All other synthetics, as far as I know, have never had this problem, because no one else has screwed around with the additive package like that.

Anyhow, I just changed to the Toyota filter, and Mobil 1 5w30 synthetic, and so far, no noise. I let the engine warm up after changing the oil, and during that period, there was some spiratic ticking that would come on for a few seconds, maybe 3 times over the warmup cycle, then once warm it was gone. In other driving later that day, no ticking.

This is way too much typing for me this evening...

 

I understand and appreciate the post. There is was big debate on a few makers that claimed to be "synthetic" but were using dino base stocks.