coil overs for a third gen
03-09-2005, 06:18 AM
#41
DO NOT cut the springs! What kind of idiot cuts on $$$ coilover springs?! you buy them based on the length and spring rate you want.
BTW, don't go with less than a 7" spring up front. that's absolute minimum.
and before you do that, see how much shock travel you have. most likely you're going to bottom out on the first real bump you hit.. And if you can't drive over train tracks without bottoming out, then you can't put these on your car every day. The first time you put a Koni insert in there and bottom it out by hitting a pothole or train track or whatever, you're going to blow that Koni insert. $150 down the drain. (don't forget to include shipping..) and it WON'T be warrantied by Koni. Trust me. been there.
Get the ride height set to where you want, then lower the car to the ground.. look up into your suspension and see how much of the shaft is still sticking out of the strut.. now imagine hitting a huge bump and that strut goes up 2.5".. how much room you got left now?
the other way to do it is to install the shock on the car, drop it to the ground, then measure the distance from the center of the wheel to the fender. (put a mark of tape on the fender so you measure to the same spot every time).
now pull the wheel off and remove the spring from the strut. put the strut back on the car and stick a jack under the ball joint and jack the suspension up until it's at the same ride height as it was when the car was on the ground with the loaded suspension.
now you can easily get in there and measure the room you have to compress the shock. If you have less than 2.5" of travel in there, you WILL blow the shock in a short time. (again, ask me how I know.)
All said and done, you're out of shock travel unless you're running an 11" shock- which simply isn't made unless you go to a full aftermarket maker like Tein, Progress, JIC, etc.
BTW, don't go with less than a 7" spring up front. that's absolute minimum.
and before you do that, see how much shock travel you have. most likely you're going to bottom out on the first real bump you hit.. And if you can't drive over train tracks without bottoming out, then you can't put these on your car every day. The first time you put a Koni insert in there and bottom it out by hitting a pothole or train track or whatever, you're going to blow that Koni insert. $150 down the drain. (don't forget to include shipping..) and it WON'T be warrantied by Koni. Trust me. been there.
Get the ride height set to where you want, then lower the car to the ground.. look up into your suspension and see how much of the shaft is still sticking out of the strut.. now imagine hitting a huge bump and that strut goes up 2.5".. how much room you got left now?
the other way to do it is to install the shock on the car, drop it to the ground, then measure the distance from the center of the wheel to the fender. (put a mark of tape on the fender so you measure to the same spot every time).
now pull the wheel off and remove the spring from the strut. put the strut back on the car and stick a jack under the ball joint and jack the suspension up until it's at the same ride height as it was when the car was on the ground with the loaded suspension.
now you can easily get in there and measure the room you have to compress the shock. If you have less than 2.5" of travel in there, you WILL blow the shock in a short time. (again, ask me how I know.)
All said and done, you're out of shock travel unless you're running an 11" shock- which simply isn't made unless you go to a full aftermarket maker like Tein, Progress, JIC, etc.
03-09-2005, 06:29 AM
#42
.............
And when you're done with all that, please let me know how you plan to combat the bump steer issue with the car now. lowering the car more than 1" causes some nasty bumpsteer and other alignment problems that just aren't inherent in the factory geometry.
So go through all that crap and let me know what you find... Also make sure you match the spring rates and lengths so that you have the handling, ride height, and quality you need while still allowing for proper suspension travel when you inevitably hit potholes and other nasty stuff. find some shocks that are beefy enough to take the abuse as well. Konis aren't stiff enough on the compression side.
when all that's done and you have a system that you can drive through NYC streets and not destory your shocks, then I'll give you props on a job well done.
just bolting a spring into the housing is easy- I did that three years ago. Fixing all of the other stuff around it to make it work properly is the hard part. This is why you don't see retards installing custom suspensions.
And when you're done with all that, please let me know how you plan to combat the bump steer issue with the car now. lowering the car more than 1" causes some nasty bumpsteer and other alignment problems that just aren't inherent in the factory geometry.
So go through all that crap and let me know what you find... Also make sure you match the spring rates and lengths so that you have the handling, ride height, and quality you need while still allowing for proper suspension travel when you inevitably hit potholes and other nasty stuff. find some shocks that are beefy enough to take the abuse as well. Konis aren't stiff enough on the compression side.
when all that's done and you have a system that you can drive through NYC streets and not destory your shocks, then I'll give you props on a job well done.
just bolting a spring into the housing is easy- I did that three years ago. Fixing all of the other stuff around it to make it work properly is the hard part. This is why you don't see retards installing custom suspensions.
03-09-2005, 06:31 AM
#43
what exactly causes you to bottom out? no play in the spring up and down? i dont see how if the spring wont give, then the strut is blown? i would think the strut just wouldnt do anthing.....sorry not trying to be mean just trying to learn. Im installin my suspension soon (intrax & tokicos) so any info would be great (i like to learn)
so matt, how did you blow your konis from bottoming out?
so matt, how did you blow your konis from bottoming out?
03-09-2005, 06:35 AM
#44
bottoming out = the shaft on the inside of the strut smashes into the bottom of the housing.
that's where all of the valving is on them that controls the damping of the shock. bottom it out and you ruin the valving- especially on the Konis... when that happens, you might as well not even hace struts on the car in the first place, as there is no resistance when you pull the shaft out or shove it in. it's just a metal shaft inside a sleeve.
the problem isn't the spring not giving- the spring WILL give. The problem is the strut smashing into the bottom of the upper mount because there's not enough spring to keep it from happening. That's why you have to have a certain amount of shock travel, both up and down.
that's where all of the valving is on them that controls the damping of the shock. bottom it out and you ruin the valving- especially on the Konis... when that happens, you might as well not even hace struts on the car in the first place, as there is no resistance when you pull the shaft out or shove it in. it's just a metal shaft inside a sleeve.
the problem isn't the spring not giving- the spring WILL give. The problem is the strut smashing into the bottom of the upper mount because there's not enough spring to keep it from happening. That's why you have to have a certain amount of shock travel, both up and down.
03-09-2005, 06:39 AM
#45
ok that makesa lot of sense. Since i have blown oem struts, they are basically doing jack for me. pretty sure the fronts are shot to hell. Thanks matt thats right on. i had always thought that the spring stopped the strut from killing itself like that.
03-09-2005, 06:53 AM
#46
the spring is supposed to keep the car off the ground and keep the strut from bottoming out. The strut keeps the car from bouncing so that the springs don't oscillate back and forth until the car does bottom out. you must have good springs and shocks in order for the suspension to do it's job. skimp on one of those or get the improper one (by randomly throwing on coilover springs), you're going to overpower the strut and the car will bounce around like crazy.
put too stiff a strut on it and the car doesn't go anywhere when you hit a bump, and it will send the strut through your shock towers when you hit a speed bump.
put too stiff a strut on it and the car doesn't go anywhere when you hit a bump, and it will send the strut through your shock towers when you hit a speed bump.
03-09-2005, 08:38 AM
#50
Originally Posted by Harvs94max
matt what if i made a taller strut mount that had the shaft sit up another 1.5 inches effectively that would give you the same position as stock if you droped the car 1.5inches
03-09-2005, 09:09 AM
#55
what do you mean the easy way
and y is everyone so angered by this im just trying something if it works yippy if it dosnt big deal your not losing anything
atleast im going about this the right way instead of dropping some coilovers in
a little optimism would be nice and any help instead of telling everyone it cant be done
and im serious about this i want to atleast give it a shot
and y is everyone so angered by this im just trying something if it works yippy if it dosnt big deal your not losing anything
atleast im going about this the right way instead of dropping some coilovers in
a little optimism would be nice and any help instead of telling everyone it cant be done
and im serious about this i want to atleast give it a shot
03-09-2005, 09:38 AM
#56
Originally Posted by Harvs94max
atleast im going about this the right way instead of dropping some coilovers in
That's EXACTLY what you're doing...
What spring rates are you using?
spring lengths?
caltulated ride height and spring travel?
shock damping rates?
taken bump steer into account yet?
There's a lot more to coilovers than just throwing some sleeves on your stock struts and bolting them into the car.
I did that three years ago, and I've put about $5,000 into other adjustments required and the hundred or so problems that miraculously pop up once you've done that part.
I'm not trying to be a *******, I'm trying to save you tons of money and years/months of frustration.
Don't believe me? have fun. Call me when have a proper setup that handles well, doesn't explode when you hit a bump, and doesn't beat you and the car to death when you drive down a bumpy road. Let me know how many months it takes you and how many thousands of dollars you've spent on it.
03-09-2005, 11:33 PM
#61
just on intrax springs for a couple of years i destroyed the factory bumpstops. They cracked, broke and got really chewed in the front. Along with the horrible steering from them. But assuming you fab some sweet pillow ball mounts couldnt you try adjusting rack height and rod end height to adjust bumpsteer?
03-09-2005, 11:34 PM
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: BFE, UT
Posts: 3,194
Bad thing about extending the strut mount is possibly screwing up the camber. You'd have to get the right angle which means extending it an angle. Hmm more drawing board time.
And I have just one question to pick from you brain Matt. Did you try using the sleeves from a Spec V setup? Not to sound smart a$$ or anything. I'm just trying to figure out how far down this road you have been, and on which lane so to speak.
And I have just one question to pick from you brain Matt. Did you try using the sleeves from a Spec V setup? Not to sound smart a$$ or anything. I'm just trying to figure out how far down this road you have been, and on which lane so to speak.
03-10-2005, 04:04 AM
#63
Sleeves from anything will work, that's not the problem. it's picking the front and rear spring rates, custom upper mounts, custom shortened struts, stiffer valving than what even Konis can provide, and then you have the alignment issues. I've got all kinds of extra parts on my car trying to reduce the bumpsteer and get the alignment back into shape. by adding those things, you create other problems as well. sway bars rub on things they didn't before, your power steering pump explodes from the extra loads put on it all the time... all kinds of fun stuff. 
Maxnub91... 3200lb is the static (standing still) weight of the car. it's about 70% front bias on that as well, so you've got about 1120lb on each front wheel and only 480 on the rears.
But when you hit a bump, all of that goes out the window.. you're driving down the road at 30mph and you hit a bump in the road... that's going to shove your suspension up at 30mph to compensate. that's exactly the same as the car going down at 30mph. do a bit of math on it based on the momentum and kinetic energy of the car at that speed and you'll realize there are several thousand pounds of force on the front suspension.. the shock and strut has to keep that in control, which is why shocks wear on our cars so quickly.
Maxnub91... 3200lb is the static (standing still) weight of the car. it's about 70% front bias on that as well, so you've got about 1120lb on each front wheel and only 480 on the rears.
But when you hit a bump, all of that goes out the window.. you're driving down the road at 30mph and you hit a bump in the road... that's going to shove your suspension up at 30mph to compensate. that's exactly the same as the car going down at 30mph. do a bit of math on it based on the momentum and kinetic energy of the car at that speed and you'll realize there are several thousand pounds of force on the front suspension.. the shock and strut has to keep that in control, which is why shocks wear on our cars so quickly.
03-10-2005, 05:33 AM
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: BFE, UT
Posts: 3,194
Ok they would only lower the car like a 1inch . the springs were too tall. But they give a dam good ride. Nice and firm not bouncy
How much are the coil overs?
If assuming that the 1" drop, possibly more, is from a stock height. Your car is lowered 2". There's a chance you could be off by how much it would lower it with only memory to serve as a basis for stock height.
I'm planning on going with a Koni and Eibach setup, if I can get the coilovers for less... highly doubtful, then I could save some money... as well have an adjustable suspension for track and winter. The roads here can be horrible in places.
03-10-2005, 08:41 AM
#65
for bumpsteer you can put on adjustable tie rod ends but i understand that will only help to a degree but i dont get y matt thinks we are going to put rediculous spring rates and drop the car 5inches i was more in for this so i could choose may rates front to back and adjust the ride hieght front to back not to slam it the to ground probably similar rates to eibachs but now you have adjustability
03-10-2005, 11:24 AM
#66
here is my plan of attack
for the front strut mounts ill get an adjustable cusco unit and just have the top plate made to fit the bolt locations of the max and the should move the strut shaft up almost 1.5inches then ill get gc's front 450lbs 7in(might go larger once i see how the strut mount goes) and for the rear an 8in spring with 400lbs or maybe 350 not sure yet if i get a lot of bump steer ill get some adjustable tie rod ends as for damping ill get some konis eventually to adjust how i like
this should allow me to run the front down to 1.8 inches maybe even 2 and rear at 1.5ish for race day then raise the car back up to 1.5 for normal driving and in winter back up to 1in
kyle
for the front strut mounts ill get an adjustable cusco unit and just have the top plate made to fit the bolt locations of the max and the should move the strut shaft up almost 1.5inches then ill get gc's front 450lbs 7in(might go larger once i see how the strut mount goes) and for the rear an 8in spring with 400lbs or maybe 350 not sure yet if i get a lot of bump steer ill get some adjustable tie rod ends as for damping ill get some konis eventually to adjust how i like
this should allow me to run the front down to 1.8 inches maybe even 2 and rear at 1.5ish for race day then raise the car back up to 1.5 for normal driving and in winter back up to 1in
kyle
03-10-2005, 09:56 PM
#67
it ain't that easy guys.. trust me.. I've been there, done that.
and they'll be a LOT more expensive than just eibach/konis...
I've got around $4000 invested in my suspension right now, and I'm STILL working out the kinks.
That's not to count the piles of failed/used/incorrect/worn out parts in the back yard, and tires every 6 months for three years trying to get everything set right..
so have fun.. I'm not going to waste my time. I've tried.
and they'll be a LOT more expensive than just eibach/konis...
I've got around $4000 invested in my suspension right now, and I'm STILL working out the kinks.
That's not to count the piles of failed/used/incorrect/worn out parts in the back yard, and tires every 6 months for three years trying to get everything set right..
so have fun.. I'm not going to waste my time. I've tried.
03-11-2005, 12:22 AM
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: BFE, UT
Posts: 3,194
Hey guys check this out, It was found by Harvs94max
http://d2racing.com/html/coiloapps.html
Have you seen this list at all Matt? There's already been a question brought up because it says A31. But it's still a possibility.
http://d2racing.com/html/coiloapps.html
Have you seen this list at all Matt? There's already been a question brought up because it says A31. But it's still a possibility.
03-11-2005, 03:46 AM
#69
Originally Posted by kcidmil
Hey guys check this out, It was found by Harvs94max
http://d2racing.com/html/coiloapps.html
Have you seen this list at all Matt? There's already been a question brought up because it says A31. But it's still a possibility.
http://d2racing.com/html/coiloapps.html
Have you seen this list at all Matt? There's already been a question brought up because it says A31. But it's still a possibility.
And wasn't there some question about the strut hitting up against some other part of the suspension??
03-11-2005, 06:19 AM
#71
Originally Posted by kcidmil
Hey guys check this out, It was found by Harvs94max
http://d2racing.com/html/coiloapps.html
Have you seen this list at all Matt? There's already been a question brought up because it says A31. But it's still a possibility.
http://d2racing.com/html/coiloapps.html
Have you seen this list at all Matt? There's already been a question brought up because it says A31. But it's still a possibility.
that's for the Cefiro, as others have stated. You'll find stuff like that every now and then on various websites when dealing with mostly JDM parts.
05-04-2005, 06:40 AM
#76
don't bother searching.. there's an entire forum dedicated to it.
http://forums.maxima.org/forumdisplay.php?f=82
http://forums.maxima.org/forumdisplay.php?f=82
