Generally this isn't good..
07-27-2010 | 09:36 AM
#41
that's what i meant.. for shame!
yea. while it's true that your mechanic can fix the static camber (ie, camber while the car is sitting still on level ground) the problem with struts, and why they are garbage, is that you only have one control arm.. and therefore can't really control camber through the full range of motion worth a crap.
you want the gamber to go more negative as the suspension compresses, more positive as it extends, to compensate for body roll and shear forces against the sidewall. if you watch a pickup truck or Ford panel van with blown shocks on the highway, you can actually wtatch the wheels camber in and out as the nose bounces over the road. That's cuz they have dual wishbones in front, with a short arm at the top and a long arm at the bottom, so the top arm pulls in at a faster rate than the bottom arm, hence the camber change. see how that would work on this setup? upper control arm angles in alot faster due to being shorter, and pulls the top of the knuckle inward toward the frame as the bottom pushes out.
however since on struts, the top is a 'fixed point', all you have to adjust the camber with is the control arm at the bottom. and as soon as the control arm starts pointing up... you start gaining positive camber under compression which is massively massively bad for cornering and stability, and just as bad for tire wear because you are basically riding on your sidewalls around turns. And i can tell you, based on crawling underneath nc90gxe's car with intrax springs, that his control arms are already pointing waay up on a 1.7" drop. you can see it in this pic.. you gain negative camber up until your control arm (yellow on the left, yellow/teal on the right) goes level (just like they show in the pic), then once it starts pointing up, you go back towards (and into) positive camber (not shown in pic) as the cosine of the arm (ie distance horizontal to body) decreases as theta (angle) increases.
about the only way to combat that and have negative camber even under compression is to add a huge amount of caster angle (which isn't very common on FWD cars), a huge amount of kingpin inclination (which you are kindof limited by your strut tower location on that one, plus it hurts turning radius after a certain point) or a huge amount of static negative camber (not so great for tire wear when you're going straight)
yea. while it's true that your mechanic can fix the static camber (ie, camber while the car is sitting still on level ground) the problem with struts, and why they are garbage, is that you only have one control arm.. and therefore can't really control camber through the full range of motion worth a crap.
you want the gamber to go more negative as the suspension compresses, more positive as it extends, to compensate for body roll and shear forces against the sidewall. if you watch a pickup truck or Ford panel van with blown shocks on the highway, you can actually wtatch the wheels camber in and out as the nose bounces over the road. That's cuz they have dual wishbones in front, with a short arm at the top and a long arm at the bottom, so the top arm pulls in at a faster rate than the bottom arm, hence the camber change. see how that would work on this setup? upper control arm angles in alot faster due to being shorter, and pulls the top of the knuckle inward toward the frame as the bottom pushes out.
however since on struts, the top is a 'fixed point', all you have to adjust the camber with is the control arm at the bottom. and as soon as the control arm starts pointing up... you start gaining positive camber under compression which is massively massively bad for cornering and stability, and just as bad for tire wear because you are basically riding on your sidewalls around turns. And i can tell you, based on crawling underneath nc90gxe's car with intrax springs, that his control arms are already pointing waay up on a 1.7" drop. you can see it in this pic.. you gain negative camber up until your control arm (yellow on the left, yellow/teal on the right) goes level (just like they show in the pic), then once it starts pointing up, you go back towards (and into) positive camber (not shown in pic) as the cosine of the arm (ie distance horizontal to body) decreases as theta (angle) increases.
about the only way to combat that and have negative camber even under compression is to add a huge amount of caster angle (which isn't very common on FWD cars), a huge amount of kingpin inclination (which you are kindof limited by your strut tower location on that one, plus it hurts turning radius after a certain point) or a huge amount of static negative camber (not so great for tire wear when you're going straight)
has anyone else done a 2" drop on a 3rd gen before?
07-27-2010 | 02:00 PM
#42
yes, they have. and their cars most likely handled worse than a car with a 1.5" drop or they had god-awful tire wear, or both. the only way to drop a car without those problems would be to lower the control arm and tierod end down 2" to set geometry back to what it was stock. luckily this is really easy to do on a z31. very very hard to do on a 3rd gen Maxima tho.
07-27-2010 | 06:40 PM
#43
What Caped said... I was that guy.. no point in coilovers on these cars unless you like replacing struts every 10,000 miles and tires every 8000.
Front suspension geometry just sucks for lowering these cars.
1.5" is about all you can do before the steering goes whack.
Front suspension geometry just sucks for lowering these cars.
1.5" is about all you can do before the steering goes whack.
07-27-2010 | 06:59 PM
#44
Gonna adjust the end link tomorrow...and I'm rethinking the whole spoiler thing and considering just wiring my 3rd light in the car and just bondo, sand, & repaint the trunk to get it nice and smooth so I can save some $$
07-27-2010 | 08:32 PM
#45
im dropping into twilight zone territoryi'm going to still try a Koni strut/2" Ksport drop setup. i go through tires so fast that im considering just getting cheap junkyard tires from now on.
i know Koni has a lifetime warranty for their struts, does this apply to if you buy them on Ebay and if theyre on a lowered car?
07-27-2010 | 09:18 PM
#46
No and no.
When you hit bottom, the Konis mash the adjuster on the bottom of the shaft into the end of the housing and it FUBARs the whole strut. you immediately lose all damping. Send it in for warranty and they laugh at you and tell you go to buy a new one (at full price) and install bumpstops next time.
problem is when you go that low, you're already on the bumpstops and any compression in the bumpstop will result in bottoming of the strut and damage.
When you hit bottom, the Konis mash the adjuster on the bottom of the shaft into the end of the housing and it FUBARs the whole strut. you immediately lose all damping. Send it in for warranty and they laugh at you and tell you go to buy a new one (at full price) and install bumpstops next time.
problem is when you go that low, you're already on the bumpstops and any compression in the bumpstop will result in bottoming of the strut and damage.
07-28-2010 | 07:08 AM
#47
No and no.
When you hit bottom, the Konis mash the adjuster on the bottom of the shaft into the end of the housing and it FUBARs the whole strut. you immediately lose all damping. Send it in for warranty and they laugh at you and tell you go to buy a new one (at full price) and install bumpstops next time.
problem is when you go that low, you're already on the bumpstops and any compression in the bumpstop will result in bottoming of the strut and damage.
When you hit bottom, the Konis mash the adjuster on the bottom of the shaft into the end of the housing and it FUBARs the whole strut. you immediately lose all damping. Send it in for warranty and they laugh at you and tell you go to buy a new one (at full price) and install bumpstops next time.
problem is when you go that low, you're already on the bumpstops and any compression in the bumpstop will result in bottoming of the strut and damage.
07-28-2010 | 08:07 AM
#48
Hey, Matt, I know you are generally really knowledgeable about engineering stuff.
If one were to move the balljoint above the control arm, and add a spacer, would this correct the problem, or create a bigger problem?
(I am not giving advice to the noobs with no engineering background. this is an uneducated idea, so don't try it)
If one were to move the balljoint above the control arm, and add a spacer, would this correct the problem, or create a bigger problem?
(I am not giving advice to the noobs with no engineering background. this is an uneducated idea, so don't try it)
07-28-2010 | 10:24 AM
#49
No and no.
When you hit bottom, the Konis mash the adjuster on the bottom of the shaft into the end of the housing and it FUBARs the whole strut. you immediately lose all damping. Send it in for warranty and they laugh at you and tell you go to buy a new one (at full price) and install bumpstops next time.
problem is when you go that low, you're already on the bumpstops and any compression in the bumpstop will result in bottoming of the strut and damage.
When you hit bottom, the Konis mash the adjuster on the bottom of the shaft into the end of the housing and it FUBARs the whole strut. you immediately lose all damping. Send it in for warranty and they laugh at you and tell you go to buy a new one (at full price) and install bumpstops next time.
problem is when you go that low, you're already on the bumpstops and any compression in the bumpstop will result in bottoming of the strut and damage.
the last part i need to fix my suspension is the front swaybar mount, i went to the junkyard today and found a low mileage US 94 GXE. i think i found the swaybar (black piece of metal running across near the control arms) but what exactly is the mount? theres 2 bracket like things around the swaybar, are those them?
07-29-2010 | 09:04 AM
#50
dude you're such a dipshiit. if Matt couldn't do it on his own car, as a parts fabricator for 3rd gens there's no way in hell your so-called mechanic (who cares nothing about maximas, just getting paid) can do it. not unless he can figure out how to move the whole balljoint and tie rod end down by 2 inches.
07-31-2010 | 03:49 PM
#52
Hey, Matt, I know you are generally really knowledgeable about engineering stuff.
If one were to move the balljoint above the control arm, and add a spacer, would this correct the problem, or create a bigger problem?
(I am not giving advice to the noobs with no engineering background. this is an uneducated idea, so don't try it)
If one were to move the balljoint above the control arm, and add a spacer, would this correct the problem, or create a bigger problem?
(I am not giving advice to the noobs with no engineering background. this is an uneducated idea, so don't try it)
(note the date on the picture if you go to the directory listing..)
just because you're changing the angle of the control arm relative to the joint, you're not actually moving the pivot. in effect, all you did was lengthen the control arm by a fraction of an inch. Unless you find a way to move the balljoint down relative to the spindle (so the ball joint is physically lower, not just bolted to the control arm differently), it's not going to do you any good.
07-31-2010 | 04:06 PM
#53
just because you're changing the angle of the control arm relative to the joint, you're not actually moving the pivot. in effect, all you did was lengthen the control arm by a fraction of an inch. Unless you find a way to move the balljoint down relative to the spindle (so the ball joint is physically lower, not just bolted to the control arm differently), it's not going to do you any good.
not surprised you tried it, either.
08-01-2010 | 06:25 AM
#57
Nope. tried that too. wound up removing it in short order cause it made bumpsteer horrible bad.
(note the date on the picture if you go to the directory listing..)
just because you're changing the angle of the control arm relative to the joint, you're not actually moving the pivot. in effect, all you did was lengthen the control arm by a fraction of an inch. Unless you find a way to move the balljoint down relative to the spindle (so the ball joint is physically lower, not just bolted to the control arm differently), it's not going to do you any good.
(note the date on the picture if you go to the directory listing..)
just because you're changing the angle of the control arm relative to the joint, you're not actually moving the pivot. in effect, all you did was lengthen the control arm by a fraction of an inch. Unless you find a way to move the balljoint down relative to the spindle (so the ball joint is physically lower, not just bolted to the control arm differently), it's not going to do you any good.
(not my pics)cliffs:
LCA->spacer->bj->spindle = bad
LCA->bj->spacer->spindle = good
08-01-2010 | 06:37 AM
#58
i personally have the 2" drop without getting an alignment or anything and let me tell you if it didnt look so badass id take it right back off...The ride is SOLID and the negative camber is just eating up the insides of the new tires i baught... i took my bumpstops out because they were a little dryrotted... truthfully it was because upon reinstalling the spring on the strut i forgot to put 1 on so i said hell with it all of em are off but i would NOT recommend that atall..I still love the drop tho and it higs corners like no other with virtually no body roll...
08-01-2010 | 06:46 AM
#59
Half the reason your tire wear is so bad is because you haven't gotten an alignment yet. take that sucker to an alignment shop and get it fixed. your toe is way off, causing it to eat tires. it always is after you lower a car.
08-01-2010 | 07:10 AM
#60
part of the reason is also because my balljoints are about shot and tierod ends need replacing...but indealing with the motor swap and tranny swap issues ive put that on the back burner so to speak...
08-09-2010 | 06:01 PM
#61
dude you're such a dipshiit. if Matt couldn't do it on his own car, as a parts fabricator for 3rd gens there's no way in hell your so-called mechanic (who cares nothing about maximas, just getting paid) can do it. not unless he can figure out how to move the whole balljoint and tie rod end down by 2 inches.
i need camber bolts after, i can get a cheap alignment done at Canadian Tire because i bought tires from them, but theyre
and probably dont know what a camber bolt is, can camber bolts be put in a few days after an alignment?and i'll be away from Thursday-Sunday and the Max will be in the garage for the whole time, obviously nothing would be wrecked if i just drove the Max home tomorrow and got an alignment/camber bolts Monday right? thanks
08-10-2010 | 11:29 PM
#62
dude you're such a dipshiit. if Matt couldn't do it on his own car, as a parts fabricator for 3rd gens there's no way in hell your so-called mechanic (who cares nothing about maximas, just getting paid) can do it. not unless he can figure out how to move the whole balljoint and tie rod end down by 2 inches.
i have the tytest mad JDM handling of any 3rd gen now 
08-11-2010 | 01:55 PM
#65
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