Ok i finally (after 2 weeks) got done with my engine swap. I went to start the car up, it turned over and idle'd no problem...Then after letting it idle for about 5 minutes i shifted the car into reverse...nothing happened...I shifted it into drive and nothing happened...so i pulled up the e-brake and reved the engine and heres where it got strange.... The Rpms went up, and so did the speedo like i was actually moving but i wasn't. The speedo went up REALLY fast though like there was no resistence almost as if my wheels were hanging and not touching the ground. (they were of course touching the ground) but not spinning at all. Then when i shifted it into part to check out the problem there was a strange grinding noise like i was grinding gears (Keep in mind that i'm an Auto). It was dark out so i didn't check anything but i'm really worried...Anyone have any idea what this might be, i really hope i don't have to take the tranny off cause i already returned the tranny jack i rented..

 

damn man... Well it sounds like the speedo gear is spinning, but not sending power to the axels. I wish I could help

Good luck, I'm sure someone will help.

 

are the axles on correctly? can u hear/feel hte car switch into gear?

 

I believe both axles are on correctly... The right one must be on correctly because it bolts up (wouldn't bolt if not in all the way, no?) I dunno if i can feel the car shifting or not, but the weird thing is if something wasn't connected right, i would expect to hear grinding when reving the engine in drive but i didn't, i only heard it when i shifted back to park

 

when the speedo and rpm's went up did it shift? maybe teh cluct isn't working on hte tranny

 

Its an auto (they don't have clutches to my knowledge?), i don't know if it shifted at all though, didn't really seem like it but something musta been moving since it made that grinding sound going into park.

 

actually, autos have clutches too.

 

is the shifter linkage conencted? any noises while in park under hood(rev from trotle body insted of pedal) did u try "P" to "1" is hte OD light flashing?

 

no od light flashing, i tried all the gears from Park to 1st... i park you rev, and the engine just revs. In Reverse through 1st INCLUDING neutral (and this is the weird part) when you rev, the Speedo goes up in mph as if i was driving but way faster than it would if i was actually moving. I don't hear any grinding while reving, or shifting until i give up and shift it back into park, then it makes a grinding sound that seems to last longer everytime i do it. My tranny fluid was REALLY low so i put more in and still nothing and now its at the normal level but no shift. When you put it in gear (reverse through neutral) there is no sound of it engaging at all. But when i go and check the shift cable it moves through every gear (where it connect to the tranny). I'm Befuddled wtf could it be

 

Bump...Ne body? I'm hurting here =P

 

Seriously sounds like you have a broken axle or inner/outer CV joint. That would explain;

- the speedo registering speed while you are not moving
- the speedo registering very fast (the speedo will register 2x the actual speed you *wold* have been going at that RPM
- The grinding noise when you put it back in park (the park pawl is trying to engage

If you're sure t's not someone playing a silly joke on ou by jacking up one wheel off the ground - then I suggest it's a broken axleshaft or CV joint.

 

I don't see how they'd have broken, they worked fine when i took them off the car and they looked fine when i put them back in... It seems to be like the transmission is not shifting at all. Because a broken cv joint wouldn't explain why my speedo goes up in neutral....in neutral your speedo's not supposed to move just your tack....I think the linkage inside the tranny might have broken somehow, although i have no clue how it worked FINE before i took it off the car.

 

that would explain the grinding... Its kinda like throwing it in park while moving. All the gears and stuff in the tranny is still spinning even though your foot may be on the brake, and then you throw it in park. Idk man thats some wierd stuff. Best of luck with it.

 

Even if the linkages had broken in the tranny, I wouldnt think the speedo would go crazy, even in gear. My guess would be the CV joints, but that still doenst explain the speedo problem.

Looks like it's time to call a towtruck. Hope it works out.

 

I've been at this for 2 weeks now i just want my baby back....I've spent all my spendable money on this already so i'm not gonna be able to do crap about it (unless its myself) anytime soon. Its totally Baffling. Everything should work...i did everything perfectly (well mostly). I really feel like its something simple, and i've just gotta put my finger on it <shrug>. What actually controls the changing of the gears? I mean besides the shift cable? Theres gotta be something that moves to take the car outta park wtf is it and why isn't it moving.... i couldn't be more fustrated at this point, i'm gonna call the dealership tomorrow and see if they have any ideas...

 

Somebody help....Whine.....I'll be your best friend

 

he said its Not shifting so the gears could not be moving


put hte car in neutral raise it up and see if u can spin hte axles/turn the wheels

 

The following gives troubleshooting and diagnosis steps that requires a person to be in proximity to moving parts - this is extremely dangerous and should only be attempted by people who are competent to work in this manner.

If it was me I'd do the following;

- Place the car on jackstands with the front wheels off. Handbrake and block the rear wheels
- With the engine off, try turning one of the wheel hubs.
- (If you have an open diff then) the opposite wheel should turn in the other direction (hang a wrench from one of the opposite wheel studs so you can see if it's moving)
- If you can turn one axle easily and the other axle show no sign of moving, then suspect a broken axle or differential

- fully inspect the axles to make sure they are all in place - pay particular attention to the driver's side which is snapped into place and held by a c-clip - if you didn't fully drive this home then it won't be turned by the tranny.

- IF all the axle inspections go OK, then have a friend sit in the driver's seat and keep one foot lightly on the brake and then start up and put it in D. The light brake will force both wheels to turn instead of just one, and it will also stopt he wheels and axles from spinning too quickly/dangerously. Give feedback to the guy in the driver's seat - tell him if the wheels are too slow or fast. You only need the wheels to turn fast enough that you can see if the axles are turning correctly.

-Whie the axles are turning, look over the whole axle assembly and look for anything out of place - a portion on an axle not turning? Be very careful of the wheel hubs - don't let a sheel stud catch you. Don't be reaching into anything - you should be able to see everything you need to see by looking from the side. Use a lang-handled mirror for anything else ($10 from any auto-parts store). Please don't get yourself in a position where you can be injured - If you're stupid enopugh to reach up and grab the axle with your hand then don't come cryiong to me when you lose it. ;-)


I still suspect a break/disconnect in the axleshafts - If neither of them is spinning, or only one of them is spinning regardless of the effects of varied light braking (which should force the other to spin also), then that is us problem. The break/disconnect can be in one of 4 places;

- The splined section of the inner CV that fits into the tranny could be stripped or not engaged(won't see anything moving)
- the inner CV joint (you'll see the inner CV joint moving right next to the tranny, but nothing else)
- The outer CV joint (The whole axle will move - you may see the CV joint right at the knuckle not move while the rest moves)
- The splined section that connects to the wheel hub

A break somewhere between the differential spider gear and the outer CV joint (inlcusive) explains ALL of your symptoms. You should be able to find it using these steps here. BE CAREFUL and don't sue me.

 

Another note - the speedo is driven off the diff housing (I believe) so if the speedo is reading whent he car is not moving then we must reach the conclusion that the differential IS in fact spinning even if the car is not moving. This is only possible is the differential is not connected to the wheels. In an open differential if ONE wheel is not connected then when the car is put in D the differential will spin, the good axle will not turn and the broken axles wil turn 2x as quickly (go to howstuffworks.com and look up differential).

Also, the park gear (a large 'cog' that the 'park pawl' engages when you put it in park) is solidly connected 1:1 to the differential housing. When a car with a wheel disconnect is sitting still but the differential is turning, putting the car in park will cause the park pawl to attempt to engage the park gear, but because the diff is spinning, so is the park gear - the park pawl is designed to NOT engage if the car is moving (safety feature in case of park pawl failure so it won't lock the wheels up) and the mechanism wil make a loud clack sound as the park pawl tries to engage and is rejected by the park gear. This clack sound will happen 10-15 times per revolution of the differential. So when you put the failed axle car in Park it will makes avery rapid (and quite scary if you love your car) clacking noise which will probably only be stopped by you turning the engine off.

This is why I believe a wheel disconnected from the differential explains all of your symptoms.

 

That sounds viable....Doesn't explain the tack going up in neutral (i don't think) but i'm gonna try it... i'm crazy and i have a pair of jack stands, seems like all i need to try something like that =)... I'll post my results later...if its not one of these things, i'm just gonna except that my car doesn't love me anymore

 

I have a auto tranny that works fine. Where you located?

 

I'm thinking and hoping that my tranny is fine, i don't see how it couldn't be <shrug>, but i'm in florida btw

 

O too far anyways. I was thinking just in case you needed a new one or some parts off mine.

 

The tach goes up because there is no load on the tranny. The load on the tranny keeps the RPMs low.

 

Oh i said tack i meant the speedo...its weird that the SPEEDO goes up in neutral....

 

Already explained that - see above. The speedo is the one symptom that convinces me you have a drivline disconnect between your diff and one (or both) of your hubs.

 

ooooh i see....i just didn't think that applied when the car was in neutral

 

1) The speedo is driven via electrical signals from the VSS, the speed sensor, which is driven by the differential. Therefore the speedo can only display speed if the differential is moving. (this is assuming it shows speed in time with the engine revs as if the car was moving - not pegging out at 140 or fluctuating wildly)

2) The differential can only turn if at least one of the wheels is moving, or if at least one side of the differential output is seeing zero load. This can be a removed wheel, zero traction (mud or wheel jacked off floor) or disconnect between the diff housing and the road.

3) Therefore, the speedo can only show speed output, which is relative to engine revs, while both the front wheels are not moving IF at least one side of the diff output is seeing zero load. Again, this can be a removed wheel, zero traction (mud or wheel jacked off floor) or disconnect between the diff housing and the road. The dosconnect can be one of the splined sections (tranny or hub) is not fully engaged, or the plines at either end are stripped and turning freely, axles broken, CV joint broken at either end or one of the splined sections (tranny or hub) is not fully engaged.

I suggest you look at making sure the three bolts on the passenger side axles intermediate carrier are installed correctly, and that the driver side axles is driven fully into the tranny (you should not be able to pull it out of the tranny by hand). When I install c0clip axles I put the axle not on the end (to protect the threads), place the spliend end into the tranny, then maxe sure the inner CV is collapsed full before giving a couple of sharp taps on the outer end of the shaft until I hear it click into place - and then test by trying to pull the shaft out of the tranny by hand - if it refuses to come out by hand thern it is driven in correctly - it it pops out again then it wasn't seated correctly.

 

Speedo goes up in neutral?? Weird. I guess I could see that if the cluth packs are not fully disengaged then it would try to drive the vehicle even in neutral, but it would not be able to overcome the resistance of the driveline - unless there IS no resistance in the driveline

I noticed this on my stick rebuild. With the tranny on the bench the 1/2 shifter put a little bit of pressure on the synchro which acctually tranlated like 5% of inpout shaft power to the output. If I turned the input shaft by hand the output would turn, but I could hold the output still and the input would still turn.

 

Scruit, your detailed explanations are fantastic.

for your support on this issue.

My only comments, being I've had a drive shaft come apart during suspension installs, is that you will hear it attempt to spin. This guy hears nothing strange and the tranny see's absolutely no load. (makes me thing something internal did let loose, but what??) When the CV comes apart and the shaft spins, the only thing supporting a spinning shaft is the rubber boot. The boot usually suffers some damage and you can clearly hear the CV joint mash around within as the shaft spins.

On the other side, if the spline isn't all the way in, you would think you'd hear a grinding sound as the end of the spline shaft sits against the inner spline sleve. The passenger side is bolted in place by the carrier bearing so I don't see how that could not be seated all the way. The drive side might be a different story but the pressure from the CV/hub assembly after it's all together would put a descent load forcing inwards which should put the two splined surfaces against each other causing them to grind into each other.

Why is this guys Diff (if the diff is spinning) spinning so freely? (as seen by his statement that it spins slightly in neutral??) All of the above factors of a drive shaft not being seated or a CV coming apart still would put a very light load on the tranny and IMHO would make some noise at the trouble spot.

I think we may need to look further into the transmission to see how/where the differential gets it's input from if indeed the drive shafts are seated and in one piece.

 

Thanks bro!

If one fo the CV joints broke, then the boot will either be torn or spinning on the shaft.

I had an outer CV joint go on an older Audi GT5S (5cyl 1.9 Auto) - there was no mistaking from that noise that I was in a world of hurt. That beastie was clanging all over the place under there. :O

I *SO* hope it's not stripped splines. If it is, then I'll pray to your chosen deity that it's the driveshaft splines that are wreck, not the diff housing.

I wanna know if the axles are turning when the car is in gear and on jackstands with the wheels off? If the axles are not turning at all (either of them) and the speedo is registering, then it's bad-tranny news.

If that is the case, can you pull the VSS and look in the hole - you can see if the diff is spinning there.


There are two speed sensors - the VSS (MTR) that driver the speedo and the revolution sensor. I'm not sure how they work together - I believe the revolution sensor gives the computer it's input for tranny control, and the VSS is for the speedo. My understanding is also that the rev sensor acts as primary input for the speedo on an AT, and the VSS can be a backup it the RS fails. (rev sensor is a transmission thing - nothing to do with a tach or the rev counter on the dash)

3 simple things to check before you go anywhere;

1) Is the revolution sensor plugged in? It's plugged into the back of the tranny housing, slightly forward of the driver side axle shaft. Check the wiring as far as you can to make sure the wiring is not damaged.

2) Is the VSS plugged in? Check the wiring here also. Not sure where it is on the auto, but I know it's drive onn the diff so it's gonna be at the rear - prolly near where it is on the MT - top rear.

3) Is the tranny fluid level correct???????? Don't bite my head off , but after doing a little but of research it suggests that the primary speedo input is the Rev Sensor which is not driven off the diff like the VSS is. If the speedo readout is based upon the RS then it could be as simple as a low fluid condition. Ie the low fluid is not letting the tranny go into gear.

This is where the test of removing the VSS and looking into the hole with a mirror and flashlight to see if the diff is spinning is a really good test. If the diff is NOT spinning then you don't need to worry about your axle shafts (just worry about tranny fluid level, tranny electrical connections, damage to electrical wiring, vacuum connection or good old-fashined tranny failure). If the diff IS spinning then gotta be the disconnect between the diff and the wheel that I've been saying.

 

Scuit i love you man...your my new hero <Give big HUG> You were right it was just my drivers side drive shaft not in all the way...Very odd how it didn't go in all the way, i think it came loose when i was puttin my wheel hub back on...Your the best d00d. My car runs fantastic now, it actually (and this is weird) shifts smoother than it did pre-engine swap WAY smoother...) and its the same tranny....all though i did drain and change the fluid maybe thats why...oh well i'm good to go now thanx to your fantastic and detailed explainations....

 

Glad to help. Great that yu got it fixed!!

 

Do we have an update on this yet?

 

Yeah - the driver side axel was not fully engaged in the tranny. He installed it correctly and everything is good now.

 

Ahhh I should have read the thread before I bumped it.

Glad it all worked out.