jeff don't you have some work to do at work/?

 

I'm actually getting paid to own you all day

 

actually i have been owning you all day
green= me
yellow=you

also i am going to get Z brakes just beacause i can

http://www.cardomain.com/member_page...=248117&page=2

 

What planet you been living on?

How about learning how to post some smilies other than the ones I post??

 

Just to note I changed the senario to a deer because these new TCS things will disallow the MILF to give it anymore gas.

 

Zachas far as my knowledge goes 5 speed maximas do not have ABS Correct me if iam wrong??

 

they do you can have 5speed ABS. ABS was a option on maximas you can have it added to anyone

 

5 spd maximas dont have ABS?? what???? My 5 spd 4th gen has ABS

 

why would pulling the fuse cause a problem? Maximas come with or without ABS, so essentially Zack would be driving a non abs maxima. He may have modded the car, so what? Couldnt someone with non OEM brake parts be guilty of the same? I'd love to see the test on cheep aftermarket pads vs OEM. Then show me the results of an ABS vs non ABS maxima. I serously think Zack is doing no harm to anyone around him by disabling his ABS. Now if he was in say a 95 nissan Hardbody and yanked the fuse this would be a different story. (if you dont know hardbodys have rear only ABS. without it the rear locks up and swings out very very easy....its not even belivable). Then you could start trouble.

 

Can you back that up? I'm curious now.

 

I don't think one can back that statement up about maintaining threshold traction without seeing the ABS algorithm. Some of the expensive implmentations sense more conditions and are adaptive depending on speed, weather, roadcondition and temperature of the rotor or road/wheels.
If the max doesn't have a good algorithm or an advanced one, then it is locked in to not apply more brake pressure than what is preset out of the factory. I have read up on some abs algorithms for braking systems, and there are some that are quite complicated and ingenious. the USPTO (patent office) has a ton of them.

 

That part is right, and the part about ABS adding weight is right...the rest is complete bullsh!t.

The four biggest problem with ABS are "old-school" drivers who still try to pump the brakes because they don't know, young morons who think they can pump the brakes faster than a computer, the fact that people's expectations are wrong and they think ABS should make them stop quicker all the time in every situation, and the fact that people aren't taught how to properly brake an ABS-equipped car.

Anyone who would intentionally disable ABS because they "don't like it" or remove it because "it weighs more" deserves to die in a fiery, single-car accident that would have been avoided if he could turn that slick road. I'll laugh when I read that headline... "Youth dies in avoidable, single-car accident"If you rear-end me and I look back and see you dive under your dash you can bet I'll be back there pounding your head before you get the fuse in. They'll never convict me since you just assaulted me first, and the fuse will still be in your ashtray when they cops get there.No, you're so misinformed (even about 'owning' anyone) that it's pathetic.No, he can't, because he's wrong. He thinks it's "previous-gen" ABS and somehow it's not as good...

 

i would like to see you try . ABS sucks and i pulled the fuse, my car and i can do what ever i chose.

 

ABS doesn't suck unless it was from the early 90's. ABS today can sense soo many conditions accurately about the max threshold without locking the brakes better than the driver can.

 

Ok, I'm willing to listen... I'm thinking of buying a new car and ABS is an option. Please explain to me why ABS sucks and be descriptive. Phrases like "doesn't feel right" and "just weird" won't do it.

Exactly why is no-ABS better than ABS...how will I be safer, how do I stop faster, how do I control a skid, a hard-braking turn, an emergency stop?

I already know ABS may take a few feet longer on snow and gravel, but the rest is up for discussion, and I'm willing to have my mind changed.

Go!

 

There inlies the problem. People don't know the limitations of cars, including you. The modo for turning is, "In slow, out fast." Breaking in a turn is a big no-no. The instructors at the performance driving school I attended remarked about the ABS on the Saabs we were driving every ten seconds. They said that it is a life saver but they also said it limits the extra bit of traction that you can get out of the tire. The idea of pumping brakes sucks. What you want is smoothly modulated brake pressure that applies the maximum traction.

I certainly agree that the ABS is very good at pumping brakes but lets think about that. Pumping is bad. This is demonstrated very clearly on icy services. If you have ever driven on a lake you know what I'm talking about. Locking it up on a non-ABS car means you never stop. ABS means you stop but it takes a long time. Effective and concentrated brake effort means that you stop sooner than ABS. Lets make this extremely obvious. Lets use 5% brake effort as our base. On ice this is somewhat realistic. Again keep in mind I'm doing the example on ice because the differences are more obvious. Lets set 5% brake effort as the limit of traction in a straight line. 5.1% to 100% brake effort will result in nothing but a locked wheels and a fun ride on a non-ABS car. ABS knows this because of the calibration of the wheel speed sensors. It doesn't know that 5% is the threshold of traction. It can only react when the sensors tell it to. If the system is calibrated correctly(This could certainly never be true with the many various traction ratings of tires.) it will realease the brake pressure slightly when the system tells it that it is at maximum traction. So, after it has reacted the brake effort is at 4.8%.(Totally arbitrary #) This means that your tire is not doing its best to stop you. I know that this condition of under-braking happens only for several milliseconds but it happens many times as the wave of pressure fluctuates back an forth from 5% to 4.8%.

Now, all this makes something extremely clear to me. There are differing opinions. These opinions stem from the type of driving you do in your car. I enjoy driving hard. I want to get the most out of the car that it has to offer. As a result I am less safe but I can stop shorter than an ABS car.

VQuick, we should do a real life test. There are several variables that we need to change to make it more fair. For those that don't know these variables, he has 235 Kumho 712 on all fours. I have 245 up front and 235(All four kumho) in the rear. I have stock rear pads and R4-s front pads. VQuick has R4-s on all four. To level the playing feild we should get our winter rims out and pop them on. We should each have two of each others rims on each car. That way the difference in width wouldn't be an issue. We should put the SE's up front and the GLE's in the rear.(Either way wouldn't matter. Just giving set locations for clarification.) At this point we should head to American Parkway and do many tests from 60-0 and average it all. The pads might make a difference but I'm not sure. My OEM pads are getting bad. Pulling the e-brake doesn't lock them up anymore like it used to. Does this sound like a good field test to all? It will settle this debate once and for all.

 

Hmmm...Broan, I'm not convinced. Even the simplest ABS system seems that it would not have this problem. Why? Because it doesn't care what the actual limit of traction is. If the tire is at that limit and beginning to skid, ABS stops the skid. It lets up the brake JUST UNTIL the wheel is spinning at a normal rate again. Then it applies more until the wheel starts to decelerate rapidly, signalling the start of another skid, and it repeats this process to maintain perfectly near-threshold braking. If the ABS computer is smartly programmed (I'm sure Nissan did at least a decent job), you will be exceedingly close to the threshold of traction. There is, I'm sure, a tiny margin for error, so you're not truly at the threshold, but consider this: if you are braking in a non-ABS car you really can't be absolutely at the threshold anyway! Why? Because if you're constantly at the threshold, the minute the tires hit a section of pavement with the tiniest bit less friction than the last section, the wheels WILL lock up. And then you will be skidding and you can't hope to pump as fast as ABS. Therefore, in real life conditions, you cannot get significantly closer to this magical threshold than ABS, IMO.

Bottom line, I believe that under perfect conditions, a well-trained driver could make a non-ABS car stop ever so slightly shorter than the same car with ABS. However, in real life, under all conditions, I think that the ABS car will be superior. Unless you spend hours every day practicing and really know every aspect of your car and your tires and how they perform under all types of condtions. Most people don't care to do that, but maybe you do!

About the real-life test...I think there are too many variables. You weigh more than me and my car weighs more than yours (actually, maybe not because of your tranny and trunk system), but they're probably at least 30 pounds off. It wouldn't matter if they weren't going to be so close, but I think they are. Still worth a try!

 

Sorry, I stopped reading right there.

Yes I know to brake before the turn and power out of it, but I'm talking every day driving... traffic, other obstacles, people/pedestrians... on the track it's easier to know what to expect but on a road with cars, you WILL have to make an emergency turn that involves braking.

Now, with that in mind, GO! I'm going to assume the rest of your post points out what I do and don't know, or at least what you *think* I do and don't know but were wrong about.

Convince me.........

 

On snow, you stop a small percentage sooner without ABS because snow builds up in front of the tire and helps you, and if that was the only thing ABS is for then I guess that few extra feet might help, BUT that's not what ABS is for.

ABS is for CONTROL. Try your "effective and concetrated brake effort" and turn around an object in a car with no ABS and I'll do it in my car with. You're going to stop sooner because you're going to hit the obstacle and I'm going to go around it. THAT'S the point of ABS. Huh? So you're saying the computer will bang away at the brakes, fluctuating between 4.8% and 5% but you could do better, and you could make more/different/better adjustments in fewer milliseconds than the computer? Wow.

And i guess that one second when your foot is trying to figure out the proper pressure is somehow faster than the dozens of milliseconds all added up? Wow again... 1000ms = 1s so i thought it may just even out in the end, but...........wow. </sarcasm>

Your argument is not well thought out. I'm not even seeing the direction you're trying to go so I'm having a hard time getting convinced. Please don't stop trying, I really want to get rid of all that extra ABS weight.

 

Again (then I'm going to bed) *if* stopping distance was the ONLY reason for ABS then this argument might stand, BUT the real reason for ABS is control. You can turn in an ABS hard-brake, you skid/slide/crash in a non-ABS hard-brake if you try to turn...and since *most* of the time the reason for a hard-brake is because there's something in the way, it stands to reason *most* of the time ABS > human.

 

I don't see how a human could pump the brakes on a slippery surface any faster than a modern day ABS system. Most modern systems will stay right at the traction limit, pumping the brakes 100 times per second.

 

all those wasted milliseconds add up

 

If your driving down the street and a little kid jumps out in front of you, whats the first thing your going to do?

Not modulate the brake pedal or pump, just hold that biatch down and hope you can steer around the kid... not something you can do without ABS neither will you be able to stop in time since you locked up the tires.

 

c'mon enough allready damn people.... stop argueing and start answearing some real questions about real probs....
damn... you're worse then my GF on a period.........

 

If the kid jumps out in the street I run his @ss over. Totally sarcastic there.

Let me say that I've never driven a Maxima w/ ABS when it was working properly. The '03 caravan that we had used a terrible ABS system. It was so brutish that I could feel the pedal pumping 5-10 times per second. The pedal movement was extreme and pronounced. Also, my GF's Sunfire has a sh!tty ABS system. It does the same. Finally, my moms '03 Saab has a much more refined system but pedal jerks are still notable. Let me drive a properly working ABS Max and put it through the paces then I'll decide. Maybe Nissan did a much better job than Saab but I doubt it.

Just food for thought. Ice racing cars don't have ABS.

You guys are all saying, "I don't see how you could pump as fast." Thats the point, pumping is bad.

 

Ice racing?? Dragsters don't use abs either.

Pumping is the point. It's the same as a human modulating the brakes. Only a computer can do it 100x faster

 

You, and five different ABS systems that "suck"

You.... 5 different cars

You.... 5 cars

What's the common thread? Maybe it's you that sucks? ....and the Hulk's shirt always rips off but his pants seem to stretch...what does either have to do with ABS?Are you kidding? Before there was ABS the best thing to do was pump the brakes, simulating ABS...where do you think they got the idea??

The BEST thing to do is pump the brakes because it means you're constantly adjusting the tension/pressure on the tires. If you just put your foot down to what seems to be the prime stopping point you'll probably lock up the wheels because the conditions are constantly changing.

Please, learn a little before you have kids. It would suck for you to infect another generation with these half-assed ideas.

 

You'll never know when you'll need ABS dude. And don't get into an accident here in MA and have the investigators from the insurance company find out that you did pull that fuse. Your goose will be cooked to perfection.

I wish I had ABS but I have to be a man and just use skill to get out of situations.

 

Most humans wouldn't pump it anyway. They would just hold the brake down until they hit something.

 

ABS from the 90's is just as good and ABS of today. ABS is what it is.

 

For me it has been really annoying so i just wanted to disable it. In the winter time i will put the fuse back in. Like i said its really bad in the rain and i drive an hour in traffic on 128 everyday from randolph to North Billerica. i don't tailgate and i always leave enough room infront of me if i need to stop but i notice when it is rainy or sometimes when its dry if i brake not suddenly but hard to coast down to stop my abs would come on and too me this seems like it makes things worst when your in bumper to bumper traffic. ABS is cool i can see how it is very helpful but the simple fact is it doesn't shorten stopping distances it helps you maintain control. for the driving i am doing i will take shorter stopping distances.
i will put the fuse back in the first day it snows.

 

After this I'll be done with your ignorance.

Did you ever think that maybe the ABS comes on because.....hmm..... you would have skidded otherwise? ABS comes on when one wheel is about to lock up, not all four. Rt 3 and 128 suck (well, Rt 3 isn't bad now that they repaved it, but 128 is still awful) and the ABS in my truck used to come on every once in a while during the 9 years I drove from nashua to 129/chelms and the 5 years I drove from nashua to wilmington (Rt3 to 128N).

The road surface is very choppy from years of plowing and minor repairs here and there but no real paving in the last 22 years. If your ABS is coming on your car is trying to tell you something........ you're going too fast and braking too hard for that road surface.

/thread

 

Broan, everything you've presented is anecdotal "it seems to me" evidence...which isn't really evidence, I'm afraid.

Experience certainly counts, but what I'm saying is one person's experience on a few different cars is nothing compared to real quantitative tests.

 

What do people do when trying to get the best brake performance? Well they modulate the brake pressure. How do you do that? Essentially it's "pumping" the brake pedal. However you want to call it, that's what it does. I will conceed that in a dry enviroment, someone might be able to beat the abs system. But in slippery conditions, forget it.

 

It really has nothing to do with weather. What happens the day you may need to stop quick and your tires catch some loose sand or dirt on the road?

 

OK, here's the bottom line.

ABS is great for the average daily driver. The car will do fairly decent to stop you in a myriad of situations. It is a good system for most.

ABS is NOT the best way to stop and/or control a car... threshold braking is, as was mentioned earlier with links to racing school web sites. No pumping of brakes involved at all. Humans can NOT out-pump an ABS system ever.

Threshold braking... very hard to master, takes a lot of practice to learn and then a lot more practice to still do it correctly in a panic situation. NOT for everyone.

So the bottom line is that MOST of us are better off with ABS without a doubt. But there are a slim bunch out there that can fair better without it.

 

So how many times you been out to the track and mastered thresh hold braking?

 

Well officer...as I posted earlier... I don't feel I've mastered it but I do feel I am pretty close. In either case my SE didn't come with ABS so I can't use it anyway or possibly be sued for disabling it. My old car DID have ABS but I didn't like its sensitivity and could corner and stop better for the way I drive when I disabled it.

And I don't really frequent tracks, I use parking lots and such. Maybe someday I'll see you at the Flatlands in Brooklyn or maybe in the Hunts Point area in the Bronx... we'll do some straightaways, take some turns and we'll see if your cruiser with ABS can match me without ABS. Of course it'd have to be one of the Impala's because with the RWD cruisers you could power slide and outcorner me. If you were trained to do that or learned it on your own.

 

My point is that most people dont, its just really hard not only to find somewhere but to have time and a place where you can. Impalas are pretty easy to steer. Crown Vics on the other hand are fun oversteering... but in the rain they're tricky as hell.