Detenation Problems... Teluline??
05-20-2005, 11:08 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 501
Detenation Problems... Teluline??
I have a jwt ecu and it was one of the very early models. Don't know if this matters or not but curve seems very aggresive. Any way's I live at a mile high elevation and premium here is 90-91. I've noticed a fair ammount of detenation for the past two summers. It's mostly under half to two third's throttle and on hills. But it happens almost every day. Last year I bought three gallons of 105 octane every time I filled up to mix. At five bucks a gallon I'm looking for a cheaper alternative. I saw a thread a long time ago about Mixing teluline?? Sorry if miss spelled. I believe it's a paint thinner. Just wondering if any body had any info on this or other ideas. The detenation is pretty bad. It's very noticable and it does'nt seem the knock sensor retard's correctly. But then agin I don't know what's correct and what's not. Thanks guys.
05-20-2005, 11:15 PM
#3
Moderator who thinks he is better than us with his I30
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 9,335
At part throttle timing advance is the highest. That added in with 90 octane and some hot summer days I could see having some detonation problems. I would definately run enough higher octane gas to get you up to 93 octane. Or if you can use a spare stock ECU for a few of the summer months.
05-21-2005, 12:00 AM
#5
yea, there was a thread somewhere (either on the .org or somewhere) that i read about mixing that stuff with gas to increase octane levels....but i think that stuff teluline or whatever its called has to be 100% pure..
05-21-2005, 08:29 AM
#7
i remember hearing with the Toulene it was generally 1 gallon for every 15-17 gallons, thats like a full damn tank of fuel. no body races with a full tank, too much weight. i wanted to know is it safe to go by the 1 gallon per full tank, 3/4 gallon per 3/4 tank, 1/2 gallon per 1/2 tank, 1/4 gallon per 1/4 tank method. more than likely at the track i wont run more than a 1/4 tank of fuel.
would it be safe/good to run it at this setup. i dont want to screw anything up or over/under use the Toulene in the gas.
would it be safe/good to run it at this setup. i dont want to screw anything up or over/under use the Toulene in the gas.
05-21-2005, 10:40 AM
#8
Moderator who thinks he is better than us with his I30
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 9,335
Originally Posted by Magikone69
i remember hearing with the Toulene it was generally 1 gallon for every 15-17 gallons, thats like a full damn tank of fuel. no body races with a full tank, too much weight. i wanted to know is it safe to go by the 1 gallon per full tank, 3/4 gallon per 3/4 tank, 1/2 gallon per 1/2 tank, 1/4 gallon per 1/4 tank method. more than likely at the track i wont run more than a 1/4 tank of fuel.
would it be safe/good to run it at this setup. i dont want to screw anything up or over/under use the Toulene in the gas.
would it be safe/good to run it at this setup. i dont want to screw anything up or over/under use the Toulene in the gas.
05-21-2005, 11:19 AM
#10
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
are you serious? It is a ratio of toulene to gas regardless of the amount of gas used. What do you think happens if you used the 1 gallon toulene with 15 gallons of gas....eventually you will dive the car down to a 1/4 tank.
my concern is i want to have 1/4 tank or so at the track, i dont want to fill the tank, add the amount of toulene, and then wait till i get down to 1/4 to go to the track.
if a gallon is 4 quarts and i have 4 gallons in my car i have 16 quarts, so in turn how much toulene would i need to get the proper mixture of race spec octane, is it 1 quart of toulene? so is a safe ratio 1 quart toulene per 16 quarts premium unleaded. if im wrong please explain why.
05-21-2005, 12:01 PM
#12
Originally Posted by SonicDust187
If your at the track, whats hte point of using toulene when you can get race fuel there.
2.46 for premium plus 5 bux for a possible 15+gallons of 98+ octane
its more economical to make your own fuel
after using this formula, i dont see why my logic would be incorrect.
Q: How much toluene should I use per tank of gas?
A: Octane ratings can be very easily calculated by simple averaging. For example, the tank of an Audi A4 1.8TQ is 15.6 gallons. Filling it with 14.6 gallons of 92 octane and 1 gallon of toluene (114 octane) will yield a fuel mix of:
(14.6 * 92) + (1 * 114) / 15.6 = 93.4
my idea
(4* 92) + (.25 * 114) / 4.25= 93.29 not much more a difference than a full tank with 1 gallon of toulene like in the audi comparison.
im not really in a position to benefit much from higher octane anyway but i just wanted to know for my own benefit.
05-21-2005, 02:22 PM
#14
Moderator who thinks he is better than us with his I30
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 9,335
Originally Posted by Magikone69
well if its 1 gallon per 15 gallons then wouldnt it be a half gallon per 7.5 gallons or 1/4 gallon per 3.75. gallons why wouldnt this be a proper ratio. explain
my concern is i want to have 1/4 tank or so at the track, i dont want to fill the tank, add the amount of toulene, and then wait till i get down to 1/4 to go to the track.
if a gallon is 4 quarts and i have 4 gallons in my car i have 16 quarts, so in turn how much toulene would i need to get the proper mixture of race spec octane, is it 1 quart of toulene? so is a safe ratio 1 quart toulene per 16 quarts premium unleaded. if im wrong please explain why.
my concern is i want to have 1/4 tank or so at the track, i dont want to fill the tank, add the amount of toulene, and then wait till i get down to 1/4 to go to the track.
if a gallon is 4 quarts and i have 4 gallons in my car i have 16 quarts, so in turn how much toulene would i need to get the proper mixture of race spec octane, is it 1 quart of toulene? so is a safe ratio 1 quart toulene per 16 quarts premium unleaded. if im wrong please explain why.
05-22-2005, 10:22 AM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,190
I haven't read this entire thread. You state you live at mile-high elevation. Perhaps you are looking at your problem a$$ backwards. Shouldn't you lower octane at high elevation rather than be concerned about raising it? Why don't you run 89 octane and see how the car performs? Conceivably you may find the car performs well on just 87 octane. I have read that some Maxima owners run 85 octane in Colorado with no adverse effects. Just my $0.02.
05-22-2005, 10:55 AM
#18
I have mine and am at a higher alt than he is, and I only get some knocking at 85* temps, under slight accel(30-50%) going up a grade, but heck that even happens with the stock unit. I've never seen any proof that the early models were troublesome in anyway.
05-22-2005, 05:51 PM
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 501
Well after reading this thread I rushed out an bought a gallon of toluline from a local paint store for six bucks. added it at gas station then filled the tank and went home thought nothing of it. The next day I did alot of driving and it was awesome. No knocking under any amount of throttle on the hottest day yet this year. I even took it up steep hills on the freeway and everything. I must say i'm impressed. Are there any down sides of using toluline. And mike I wanted to personaly thank you for your help.
05-22-2005, 06:14 PM
#22
One View is here, but the complete from my last cars board is below that 
Toulene Bad Joo Joo
To prevent the thinners from drying seals and o-rings, mix either toluene or xylene with some marvel mystery oil. The octane of toluene and xylene is around 114. I used to have a chart telling how much of what to mix to get a certian octane rating, but I can't find it. Do some searching on google and you should be able to find a lot more info.
The Good
Toulene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.
Rocket fuel FAQ
Copyright ã 1999,2000 by Eliot Lim This paper may be freely distributed, provided it is distributed in its entirety
Last revised by Eliot Lim: February 8, 2000
Last augmented by Charles Smith: January 6, 2003
Background
In late 1997 I became the lucky owner of 1 out of 150 1998 Porsche 993 Targas, the very last of the air cooled classics. As I drove it through the winter of 1997 and into the spring of 1998 I noticed that the engine lost some of its sweetness. Since this behavior was strongly related to ambient and engine temperature I suspected that the engine electronics were retarding its ignition timing due to insufficient fuel octane.
I started experimenting with octane boosting by first adding small doses of over the counter octane boosters and noticed immediate improvement. The engine ran smoother and quieter, was more willing to rev and had noticeably sharper throttle response. The octane shortage was confirmed by the sticker on the filler cap that stated that 93 octane fuel was needed. Since the highest octane rated fuel that was commonly available in Washington state is 92, I decided to investigate long term cost effective octane boosting so that I could fully enjoy the performance that this car offered.
My other car at the time, a 1990 Audi V8 quattro had an even more dramatic response to octane boosting. I managed to convince a few good friends to try it and the reaction was overwhelmingly positive. When I attempted a broader based dissemination of this exciting find, I was greeted largely by broad unyielding skepticism and plenty of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) regarding toxicity, safety and engine damage. There arose a need to more clearly explain the details of octane boosting, hence giving rise to this article.
Q: Will my car benefit from octane boosting?
A: Consumer organizations have effectively emphasized the larger markups that oil companies charge for high octane gasoline, implying that for most vehicles higher octane fuel is a complete waste of money. It has been quite a long time since the consumer alert was issued. Since then engine technology has evolved greatly, while people's perceptions generally have not.
Modern vehicles now use computerized engine management systems that can react to engine knock and retard ignition timing if low octane fuel is being used. Consequently cars are now being manufactured with very high compression ratios that appear to give good fuel economy and at the same time good performance. This combination does assume that fuel of adequate octane is being used.
Q: Why bother to boost octane at all since my engine can run just fine on lower octane fuel?
A: For a high compression engine to run on low octane fuel, the engine management system will need to retard the ignition timing to prevent preignition or pinging. Retarding the ignition timing means that the firing of the spark plug is delayed until a later moment in the compression stroke. It does not take much to see that a later onset of combustion means that the combustion is less complete, which in turn mean less power and poorer fuel economy. It is possible that the casual driver will still come out ahead in terms of saving money by using low octane fuel, but the retarded ignition advance also means a rougher running engine and a much duller throttle response. Thus octane boosting is not necessarily of interest to all motorists but rather the enthusiasts.
For turbocharged or supercharged engines, insufficient octane will also lead the engine management system to curtail the amount of boost which in turn defeats the purpose of these engines.
Q: How did you discover using toluene?
A: Someone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.
A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.
Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.
Q: Why do you think toluene is better than other types of octane boosters?
A: Several reasons:
Mindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.
Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.
Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.
Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.
Chevron's published composition of 100 octane aviation fuel shows that toluene comprises up to 14% alone and is the predominant aromatic hydrocarbon. Unfortunately composition specifications for automotive gasoline is harder to pin down due to constantly changing requirements.
Chevron's web site also describes the problems of ethanol being used in gasoline.
MTBE was heavily touted as a clean additive several years ago, and became a key ingredient in reformulated gasoline that is sold in California. But recently new studies arose that showed that MTBE was far more toxic than previously imagined. Organizations such as oxybusters have formed around the country to eliminate the use of MTBE in gasoline and several states, including California have passed new laws to eventually outlaw MTBE.
Q: How much toluene should I use per tank of gas?
A: Octane ratings can be very easily calculated by simple averaging. For example, the tank of an Audi A4 1.8TQ is 15.6 gallons. Filling it with 14.6 gallons of 92 octane and 1 gallon of toluene (114 octane) will yield a fuel mix of:
(14.6 * 92) + (1 * 114) / 15.6 = 93.4
The Audi A4 1.8T is a good example of a car that has very high octane needs if it has been modified to produce more turbo boost. The base compression ratio of this car is a very high 9.5:1 and when an additional 1 bar (14.7 psi) of turbo boost is applied on top of it, the resulting effective compression ratio is way beyond what 92 or 93 octane fuel can ever hope to cope with. Most modified 1.8Ts running without octane enhancement are running with severely retarded ignition timing and boost.
Q: Will toluene damage my engine or other parts of my car?
A: A 5 or 10% increase in the aromatic content of gas will most likely be well within the refining specifications of gasoline defined by ASTM D4814, which specify an aromatic content of between 20% and 45%. What this means is that if the 92 octane gas that you started off with had an aromatic content of say 30% and you increased it by 10% to 40% you would still be left with a mix that meets the industry definition of gasoline. So the above question would amount to: "Will gasoline damage my engine or other parts of my car?"
Even in the unlikely event that the 92 octane gas has a aromatic content of 45% the resulting mix would still be within the bounds of gasoline sold in other countries.
Q: Isn't toluene an extremely toxic substance?
A: The common perception of toluene's toxicity far exceeds reality. Fortunately there is an ample body of information available that specifically addresses this question. Toluene is more toxic than gasoline but it is certainly not agent orange or cyanide. See the Agency for Toxic Substances link below in the reference section.
US Environmental Protection Agency Chemical Summary
US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR)
National priority list of toxic substances
Note that the ATSDR also rates gasoline as a hazardous substance.
Mobil's spec sheet for toluene even goes as far as saying that "Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant health risk when used and handled properly."
Q: Isn't toluene an active ingredient of TNT (trinitrotoluene) and is thus deadly?
A: In the same way that cotton wool is the base ingredient of nitrocellulose (guncotton) which in turn is the main ingredient in modern smokeless gunpowder. Using this reasoning one could conclude that cotton wool is a deadly substance. This question reflects a poor understanding of basic chemistry but unfortunately it has been asked often enough.
Q: How much does toluene cost, and where can I buy some?
A: $10/gallon in a one gallon can at a hardware store, about $6/gallon in a 5 gallon can from a chemical supply or paint store, or $3/gallon in a 55 gallon drum from a chemical supply warehouse.
A2: Experience of Charlie Smith in 2002. Sherwin Williams paint stores have it for $5.00 in a gallon can. They can order it in a 5 gallon can at $4.00 / gallon. They can order 55 gallon drums for about the same cost per gallon, but you have to have a dock unloading facility to get the drum(s) off of the delivery truck.
Q: Can I just dump in 100% toluene into the tank like the F1 racers? vroom vroom vroom
A: First of all, the F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 rocket fuel was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.
Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization. Thus too strong a concentration of toluene will lead to poor cold start and running characteristics. I recommend that the concentration of toluene used to not exceed what the engine is capable of utilizing. i.e. Experiment with small increases in concentration until you can no longer detect an improvement.
_________________
Mix Your Own
Toulene Bad Joo Joo
To prevent the thinners from drying seals and o-rings, mix either toluene or xylene with some marvel mystery oil. The octane of toluene and xylene is around 114. I used to have a chart telling how much of what to mix to get a certian octane rating, but I can't find it. Do some searching on google and you should be able to find a lot more info.
The Good
Toulene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.
Rocket fuel FAQ
Copyright ã 1999,2000 by Eliot Lim This paper may be freely distributed, provided it is distributed in its entirety
Last revised by Eliot Lim: February 8, 2000
Last augmented by Charles Smith: January 6, 2003
Background
In late 1997 I became the lucky owner of 1 out of 150 1998 Porsche 993 Targas, the very last of the air cooled classics. As I drove it through the winter of 1997 and into the spring of 1998 I noticed that the engine lost some of its sweetness. Since this behavior was strongly related to ambient and engine temperature I suspected that the engine electronics were retarding its ignition timing due to insufficient fuel octane.
I started experimenting with octane boosting by first adding small doses of over the counter octane boosters and noticed immediate improvement. The engine ran smoother and quieter, was more willing to rev and had noticeably sharper throttle response. The octane shortage was confirmed by the sticker on the filler cap that stated that 93 octane fuel was needed. Since the highest octane rated fuel that was commonly available in Washington state is 92, I decided to investigate long term cost effective octane boosting so that I could fully enjoy the performance that this car offered.
My other car at the time, a 1990 Audi V8 quattro had an even more dramatic response to octane boosting. I managed to convince a few good friends to try it and the reaction was overwhelmingly positive. When I attempted a broader based dissemination of this exciting find, I was greeted largely by broad unyielding skepticism and plenty of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) regarding toxicity, safety and engine damage. There arose a need to more clearly explain the details of octane boosting, hence giving rise to this article.
Q: Will my car benefit from octane boosting?
A: Consumer organizations have effectively emphasized the larger markups that oil companies charge for high octane gasoline, implying that for most vehicles higher octane fuel is a complete waste of money. It has been quite a long time since the consumer alert was issued. Since then engine technology has evolved greatly, while people's perceptions generally have not.
Modern vehicles now use computerized engine management systems that can react to engine knock and retard ignition timing if low octane fuel is being used. Consequently cars are now being manufactured with very high compression ratios that appear to give good fuel economy and at the same time good performance. This combination does assume that fuel of adequate octane is being used.
Q: Why bother to boost octane at all since my engine can run just fine on lower octane fuel?
A: For a high compression engine to run on low octane fuel, the engine management system will need to retard the ignition timing to prevent preignition or pinging. Retarding the ignition timing means that the firing of the spark plug is delayed until a later moment in the compression stroke. It does not take much to see that a later onset of combustion means that the combustion is less complete, which in turn mean less power and poorer fuel economy. It is possible that the casual driver will still come out ahead in terms of saving money by using low octane fuel, but the retarded ignition advance also means a rougher running engine and a much duller throttle response. Thus octane boosting is not necessarily of interest to all motorists but rather the enthusiasts.
For turbocharged or supercharged engines, insufficient octane will also lead the engine management system to curtail the amount of boost which in turn defeats the purpose of these engines.
Q: How did you discover using toluene?
A: Someone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.
A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.
Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.
Q: Why do you think toluene is better than other types of octane boosters?
A: Several reasons:
Mindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.
Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.
Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.
Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.
Chevron's published composition of 100 octane aviation fuel shows that toluene comprises up to 14% alone and is the predominant aromatic hydrocarbon. Unfortunately composition specifications for automotive gasoline is harder to pin down due to constantly changing requirements.
Chevron's web site also describes the problems of ethanol being used in gasoline.
MTBE was heavily touted as a clean additive several years ago, and became a key ingredient in reformulated gasoline that is sold in California. But recently new studies arose that showed that MTBE was far more toxic than previously imagined. Organizations such as oxybusters have formed around the country to eliminate the use of MTBE in gasoline and several states, including California have passed new laws to eventually outlaw MTBE.
Q: How much toluene should I use per tank of gas?
A: Octane ratings can be very easily calculated by simple averaging. For example, the tank of an Audi A4 1.8TQ is 15.6 gallons. Filling it with 14.6 gallons of 92 octane and 1 gallon of toluene (114 octane) will yield a fuel mix of:
(14.6 * 92) + (1 * 114) / 15.6 = 93.4
The Audi A4 1.8T is a good example of a car that has very high octane needs if it has been modified to produce more turbo boost. The base compression ratio of this car is a very high 9.5:1 and when an additional 1 bar (14.7 psi) of turbo boost is applied on top of it, the resulting effective compression ratio is way beyond what 92 or 93 octane fuel can ever hope to cope with. Most modified 1.8Ts running without octane enhancement are running with severely retarded ignition timing and boost.
Q: Will toluene damage my engine or other parts of my car?
A: A 5 or 10% increase in the aromatic content of gas will most likely be well within the refining specifications of gasoline defined by ASTM D4814, which specify an aromatic content of between 20% and 45%. What this means is that if the 92 octane gas that you started off with had an aromatic content of say 30% and you increased it by 10% to 40% you would still be left with a mix that meets the industry definition of gasoline. So the above question would amount to: "Will gasoline damage my engine or other parts of my car?"
Even in the unlikely event that the 92 octane gas has a aromatic content of 45% the resulting mix would still be within the bounds of gasoline sold in other countries.
Q: Isn't toluene an extremely toxic substance?
A: The common perception of toluene's toxicity far exceeds reality. Fortunately there is an ample body of information available that specifically addresses this question. Toluene is more toxic than gasoline but it is certainly not agent orange or cyanide. See the Agency for Toxic Substances link below in the reference section.
US Environmental Protection Agency Chemical Summary
US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR)
National priority list of toxic substances
Note that the ATSDR also rates gasoline as a hazardous substance.
Mobil's spec sheet for toluene even goes as far as saying that "Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant health risk when used and handled properly."
Q: Isn't toluene an active ingredient of TNT (trinitrotoluene) and is thus deadly?
A: In the same way that cotton wool is the base ingredient of nitrocellulose (guncotton) which in turn is the main ingredient in modern smokeless gunpowder. Using this reasoning one could conclude that cotton wool is a deadly substance. This question reflects a poor understanding of basic chemistry but unfortunately it has been asked often enough.
Q: How much does toluene cost, and where can I buy some?
A: $10/gallon in a one gallon can at a hardware store, about $6/gallon in a 5 gallon can from a chemical supply or paint store, or $3/gallon in a 55 gallon drum from a chemical supply warehouse.
A2: Experience of Charlie Smith in 2002. Sherwin Williams paint stores have it for $5.00 in a gallon can. They can order it in a 5 gallon can at $4.00 / gallon. They can order 55 gallon drums for about the same cost per gallon, but you have to have a dock unloading facility to get the drum(s) off of the delivery truck.
Q: Can I just dump in 100% toluene into the tank like the F1 racers? vroom vroom vroom
A: First of all, the F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 rocket fuel was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.
Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization. Thus too strong a concentration of toluene will lead to poor cold start and running characteristics. I recommend that the concentration of toluene used to not exceed what the engine is capable of utilizing. i.e. Experiment with small increases in concentration until you can no longer detect an improvement.
_________________
Mix Your Own
05-22-2005, 08:20 PM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,108
Originally Posted by Shift_my vq
p.s it's a brand new knock sensor installed and tourqed correctly and detenation has actualy been happening multiple times daily.
05-30-2005, 03:48 AM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 344
I have run xylene in my Turbo T. The ratio I ran was 1 to 3 with a 2oz of MMO. The octain comes out to about 100. That should cure any knock issues. If you still get knock something else is amiss. Sunoco is selling GT100 fuel too. About $5.50 a gallon. You could do a mix of that. 90 octane is too low for an aggressive timing curve.
05-30-2005, 05:06 AM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 344
When the cost was all figured out to get 100 octane with xylene was about $3.75 a gal and at the time GT100 was about $4.50. Since then GT100 is now about $5.50 a gallon. I am going to switch to alky injection and use 93 octane. I can get methenal for about $3.50 a gallon and it would be used only when in boost.
05-30-2005, 05:13 AM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 344
Shift, have you ever seen what detonation does to a piston? Check your sparkplugs for tiny specs of silver stuck to them. That's your pistons chipping away. Not healthy for your bearing either. I would definately go to a less aggressive timing curve unless you like rebuilding engines.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
2maximas
4th Generation Maxima (1995-1999)
1
01-23-2006 01:22 PM