Mods vs. Tuning
06-19-2007, 06:58 PM
#1
Mods vs. Tuning
My only mods to date are a PRCAI, and new 2.5" exhaust, CE Y all the way to the greddy cat back. Since the engine is n/a, would purchasing a unit to tune be worth it? would I really be able to pull out any extra from the bolt ons?
Also, which direction should I head in next in terms of performance, aside from a 3.5 swap. I was thinking a UDP, flywheel, or nitrous. comments welcome
(On a complete side note, when abbreviating would it be "an UDP" since the phrase is actually "an Under Drive Pulley" or would it be "a UDP" since its abbreviated? Anyone know?)
Also, which direction should I head in next in terms of performance, aside from a 3.5 swap. I was thinking a UDP, flywheel, or nitrous. comments welcome
(On a complete side note, when abbreviating would it be "an UDP" since the phrase is actually "an Under Drive Pulley" or would it be "a UDP" since its abbreviated? Anyone know?)
06-19-2007, 07:13 PM
#3
Originally Posted by Neo Raven456
(On a complete side note, when abbreviating would it be "an UDP" since the phrase is actually "an Under Drive Pulley" or would it be "a UDP" since its abbreviated? Anyone know?)
06-19-2007, 08:23 PM
#5
Originally Posted by goldtooth
I thought that you use "an" before any word that starts with a vowel and you use "a" for a word that starts with a consonant.?
06-19-2007, 09:09 PM
#7
haha I like how the bulk of the thread turned into the grammar side note.
If I can pick up an Apex'i SAFC/VAFC/NEO for a few hundred, and be able to tune and correct my, I think its the fuel curve? and a/f ratio to be more efficient, it would theoretically pay for itself over time, in the gained efficiency over money lost in gas on the less efficient system.
Or tune for performance, or in effect tuning against efficiency. I think I remember seeing a beginner's guide to tuning on here in the tc/sc forum or maybe all motor. Idk, I've never tuned, don't pretend I know how to either, but it sounds like something that would be fun to learn
Figure I'd ask the guys that know what they're talking about if it'd be worth it or if I would be wasting my time
Originally Posted by NmexMAX
Depends on what 'worth it' means to you. Of course you would gain from said 'tuning' IMO, a word used very loosely around here.
Or tune for performance, or in effect tuning against efficiency. I think I remember seeing a beginner's guide to tuning on here in the tc/sc forum or maybe all motor. Idk, I've never tuned, don't pretend I know how to either, but it sounds like something that would be fun to learn
Figure I'd ask the guys that know what they're talking about if it'd be worth it or if I would be wasting my time
06-19-2007, 09:24 PM
#8
Originally Posted by Neo Raven456
it would theoretically pay for itself over time, in the gained efficiency over money lost in gas on the less efficient system.
Or tune for performance, or in effect tuning against efficiency.
Or tune for performance, or in effect tuning against efficiency.
06-20-2007, 08:31 AM
#9
Originally Posted by Tatanko
They do not necessarily have to be opposites. If you're running rich in a lot of places and remove fuel via an AFC to lean it out a bit, you'd actually be increasing fuel mileage and power.
So anyway, would I really be able to see any improvements, noticeable improvements by using a Fuel correction unit with the little bolt ons I have?
06-20-2007, 01:01 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Neo Raven456
Good point, I should have actually known that because I just dealt with and fixed a dying MAF that was causing me to run rich, slow, and with about 15mpg.
So anyway, would I really be able to see any improvements, noticeable improvements by using a Fuel correction unit with the little bolt ons I have?
So anyway, would I really be able to see any improvements, noticeable improvements by using a Fuel correction unit with the little bolt ons I have?
06-20-2007, 01:05 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Cdg2125
Yes with an AFC you will be able to tune the car to your likeness and will gain from it. Even tho you don't have a lot of mods, tuning the car different from stock specs can give you more power and better fuel economy. For the prices you can get a VAFC or SAFC it's worth it IMO. I still kick myself I havn't bought one yet. A WBo2 would be helpful as well if you think you're going to tune yourself.
06-20-2007, 02:03 PM
#13
Originally Posted by speed racer
Try to get a JWT or TS if I was planning to stay NA. It would be better for your application since it comes with a relatively descent fuel map and timing advance.
06-20-2007, 02:52 PM
#14
Ok now that I understand the difference between narrowband and wideband 02 sensors, will say an Apex'i VAFC or NEO be able to give a lambda reading through the sensors already built in?
I'm presuming the 02 sensors we have already are narrowband
I'm presuming the 02 sensors we have already are narrowband
06-20-2007, 02:59 PM
#15
those ECU's are $400-600 pending on who is selling. Plus there is always a chance it might give you a CEL because of years and tranny differences in the 4th gens.
the VAFC/SAFC or w/e you want to get is $200-250 plus a tune might be $100-150, which is like 1 hour on the dyno done professionally. From what i have heard and read. So in the end you get a them for nearly the same price. The ECU is plug and play but only for that maxima. the VAFC can be put in on any car you might want in the future almost.
the VAFC/SAFC or w/e you want to get is $200-250 plus a tune might be $100-150, which is like 1 hour on the dyno done professionally. From what i have heard and read. So in the end you get a them for nearly the same price. The ECU is plug and play but only for that maxima. the VAFC can be put in on any car you might want in the future almost.
06-20-2007, 03:14 PM
#17
Originally Posted by NmexMAX
IMO, the o2 input/outputs re: VAFC/NEO are as useless as our stock narrowbands.
Get a wb w/logging capabilities and am AFC of your choice.
Get a wb w/logging capabilities and am AFC of your choice.
So would you suggest something like the Zietronix zt-2, with display ($400) and then an Apex'i SAFC to tune the ratio?
06-20-2007, 06:05 PM
#18
Heard good things about that..also on the supra end i always hear good things about the LM-1. Id get a VAFC2 too. More tuning points 24 vs the 12 of the safc2. Also if you plan on going with a variable intake (00vi or mevi) you can control the switchover with the VAFC2.
So I have roughly the same mod as he does. Would tuning do much to a car with basic bolt ons? I guess every car is different, but roughly what type of gains are we talking about?
So I have roughly the same mod as he does. Would tuning do much to a car with basic bolt ons? I guess every car is different, but roughly what type of gains are we talking about?
06-20-2007, 09:13 PM
#19
I've heard bad things about the LC-1. Aside from that, all of them are in the ballpark of ~400$ if you get them with RPM logging capability. LC-1 is cheap w/o the converter, but logging vs time IMO, is inconvenient and not as efficient when working with a unit such as the SAFC/VAFC. BTW, you will want the VAFCII or NEO, as they both offer more correction points vs the SAFCII.
LM-1 is cheaper, but if you get the RPM converter, it comes out to about 400ish. The FJO is about the same(actually a little pricier) and the PLXR300(425$) is the nicest of the bunch for that price(not as nice as the JO IMO)
I have the PLX R300. You can log 2 speed inputs and 2 0-5v inputs. Speed is related to hertz(i.e. frequency) and 0-5v are sensors like MAF/TPS/ECT. reading through the FSM and you could develop curves re: the different voltages, plug in #'s and come out with usable data, i.e 0.9v re: ECT sensor = ~ 190*F ECT. Spend some intimate time w/ the FSM to see which signals that are important to you that are read in frequency. What comes to my mind is RPM and MPH. This will also data log using its own independent software (something that all the aforementioned wb's have). This is useful when tuning for the dyno, i.e street tune. Also, when adding mods you can log speed vs time (hopefully in the same or very near the same ambient conditions)
The zt2 w/o display is the cheapest/best bang for the buck. It logs vs RPM, w/o a converter. But, it does not come w/a display. Some dispute the display in that you cannot do anything fast enough to save an engine in an extreme situation. While I do agree that you cannot correct faster than a piston @ 7100RPM, but I can see what my car is doing, i.e. AFR. Also, for me it's almost a must with my larger MAF housing and PCV breather delete. You can see when it changes w/respect to throttle position, load, AC on/off, comparing to AFC correction% etc.
LM-1 is cheaper, but if you get the RPM converter, it comes out to about 400ish. The FJO is about the same(actually a little pricier) and the PLXR300(425$) is the nicest of the bunch for that price(not as nice as the JO IMO)
I have the PLX R300. You can log 2 speed inputs and 2 0-5v inputs. Speed is related to hertz(i.e. frequency) and 0-5v are sensors like MAF/TPS/ECT. reading through the FSM and you could develop curves re: the different voltages, plug in #'s and come out with usable data, i.e 0.9v re: ECT sensor = ~ 190*F ECT. Spend some intimate time w/ the FSM to see which signals that are important to you that are read in frequency. What comes to my mind is RPM and MPH. This will also data log using its own independent software (something that all the aforementioned wb's have). This is useful when tuning for the dyno, i.e street tune. Also, when adding mods you can log speed vs time (hopefully in the same or very near the same ambient conditions)
The zt2 w/o display is the cheapest/best bang for the buck. It logs vs RPM, w/o a converter. But, it does not come w/a display. Some dispute the display in that you cannot do anything fast enough to save an engine in an extreme situation. While I do agree that you cannot correct faster than a piston @ 7100RPM, but I can see what my car is doing, i.e. AFR. Also, for me it's almost a must with my larger MAF housing and PCV breather delete. You can see when it changes w/respect to throttle position, load, AC on/off, comparing to AFC correction% etc.
06-21-2007, 02:17 AM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 369
NMex - do you or anyone have a list of the settings that you use to tune an SAFC-II (acronym or not it's sound wrong with an 'a')?
Intake/Headers/Y/Resonators/Cat-Back + SAFC-II (currently using a map based on a 1994 VG30E Cefiro with similar mods that has Hi-Throttle starting 2,400rpm @ -5% and moving on up [or down] to -17% @ 5,600rpm).
I'm a little lost on how to do it and any help would really be appreciated.
Intake/Headers/Y/Resonators/Cat-Back + SAFC-II (currently using a map based on a 1994 VG30E Cefiro with similar mods that has Hi-Throttle starting 2,400rpm @ -5% and moving on up [or down] to -17% @ 5,600rpm).
I'm a little lost on how to do it and any help would really be appreciated.
06-21-2007, 02:21 AM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 369
Sorry for the OT post NeoRaven.
I like the idea of doing a 'burst' of performance mods then tuning what you've amassed, setting a benchmark whether it be dyno results, drag times or a top speed (only on a private road mind you) - then doing it all over again with another 'burst' of mods. Depends on whether you're staying automatic or not as well. Things like lumpy cams don't work too well (so I'm told) with autos.
How about equal-length headers (Cattman) and either a Nissan VLSD or a Phantom Grip LSD to ensure you get the most possible (without tinkering with your auto...I assume you're an automatic) fwhp as you can. Hard engine mounts wouldn't go amiss either (Cattman sell some).
I like the idea of doing a 'burst' of performance mods then tuning what you've amassed, setting a benchmark whether it be dyno results, drag times or a top speed (only on a private road mind you) - then doing it all over again with another 'burst' of mods. Depends on whether you're staying automatic or not as well. Things like lumpy cams don't work too well (so I'm told) with autos.
How about equal-length headers (Cattman) and either a Nissan VLSD or a Phantom Grip LSD to ensure you get the most possible (without tinkering with your auto...I assume you're an automatic) fwhp as you can. Hard engine mounts wouldn't go amiss either (Cattman sell some).
06-21-2007, 06:14 AM
#22
Originally Posted by PHAT6
NMex - do you or anyone have a list of the settings that you use to tune an SAFC-II (acronym or not it's sound wrong with an 'a')?
06-21-2007, 09:53 AM
#23
Its all on preference. But the ECU will give you more power b/c it increases timing where as the Apexi only corrects your a/f ratio. You can however increase timing by increasing fuel pressure or bigger injectors, but I haven't heard of timing increases that are more than an upgraded ecu.
Dyno tuning at a shop will require you to get a tail pipe so that they can place a WB02 sensor in. Other wise they will use a tail sniffer and those produce very lean A/F ratios.
A really really good tuning shop can tune your car looking at your torque curve but you need to find some one who you can trust.
This is why people end up getting WB02 sensor to tune there cars with an Apexi. Gives them all the tools to adjust a/f. Just remember that you can either install a test pipe for the sensor or put a O2 bung at the y-pipe collector.
Dyno tuning at a shop will require you to get a tail pipe so that they can place a WB02 sensor in. Other wise they will use a tail sniffer and those produce very lean A/F ratios.
A really really good tuning shop can tune your car looking at your torque curve but you need to find some one who you can trust.
This is why people end up getting WB02 sensor to tune there cars with an Apexi. Gives them all the tools to adjust a/f. Just remember that you can either install a test pipe for the sensor or put a O2 bung at the y-pipe collector.
06-21-2007, 10:42 AM
#24
Originally Posted by speed racer
Its all on preference. But the ECU will give you more power b/c it increases timing where as the Apexi only corrects your a/f ratio. You can however increase timing by increasing fuel pressure or bigger injectors, but I haven't heard of timing increases that are more than an upgraded ecu.
Dyno tuning at a shop will require you to get a tail pipe so that they can place a WB02 sensor in. Other wise they will use a tail sniffer and those produce very lean A/F ratios.
A really really good tuning shop can tune your car looking at your torque curve but you need to find some one who you can trust.
This is why people end up getting WB02 sensor to tune there cars with an Apexi. Gives them all the tools to adjust a/f. Just remember that you can either install a test pipe for the sensor or put a O2 bung at the y-pipe collector.
Dyno tuning at a shop will require you to get a tail pipe so that they can place a WB02 sensor in. Other wise they will use a tail sniffer and those produce very lean A/F ratios.
A really really good tuning shop can tune your car looking at your torque curve but you need to find some one who you can trust.
This is why people end up getting WB02 sensor to tune there cars with an Apexi. Gives them all the tools to adjust a/f. Just remember that you can either install a test pipe for the sensor or put a O2 bung at the y-pipe collector.
06-21-2007, 11:20 AM
#25
Originally Posted by Neo Raven456
a tail sniffer will only produce a very lean a/f ratio at low rpm's when the exhaust velocity is not enough to fill the air at the end of the tail pipe and the ambient oxygen fools it. At higher RPM's though it should be fairly accurate. Also, I would just put it in the beginning of the b-pipe. My cat and B-pipe both came with 02 bungs, and the greddy b-pipe had a filler screw, so I can just pop that off and put it there. Would that be an alright place?
06-21-2007, 12:49 PM
#26
Originally Posted by Neo Raven456
a tail sniffer will only produce a very lean a/f ratio at low rpm's when the exhaust velocity is not enough to fill the air at the end of the tail pipe and the ambient oxygen fools it.
Originally Posted by Neo Raven456
Would that be an alright place?
06-21-2007, 12:59 PM
#27
Originally Posted by 4x4Max
Only problem with that plan is that the wideband bungs aren't the same size as normal bungs, i found out the hard way with my LC-1. Good thing my friend welded up a new bung!
You sure? I've used a wideband o2 in my stock bung and the new one I welded looks like the same thread pitch as stock.
06-21-2007, 01:02 PM
#28
Originally Posted by Kevlo911
You sure? I've used a wideband o2 in my stock bung and the new one I welded looks like the same thread pitch as stock.
I didn't want to post because mine is on my 5th gen(even though there really shouldn't be a difference), but I'll add to this post also. Worked fine on mine.
06-21-2007, 02:47 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by NmexMAX
Get wbo2 w/logging. log a run. Examine, make changes via AFC as necessary. Log again and repeat the steps until you're happy with the results.
06-21-2007, 03:39 PM
#31
Originally Posted by PHAT6
Cheers for this NMex...but what's a wb02 - something to do with an oxygen sensor...?
NB02 = Stock O2 Sensor, senses the level of oxygen in the air with a corresponding voltage of 0 ~ 1v.
The advantage of WB02 is that the accuracy and resolution of your parameters is much better.
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