SuDZ

Ok here is the deal. I was driving last night with a freind in my new car for the first time. When we came to a stop on a hill for a light he noticed i put it in first and let me clucth out some to keep me stopped this way I was neighter rolling nor moving forward during the red. Here is the deal, he was told this is bad because it puts wear on the clutch and when he comes to a stop he puts it in neutral and uses just the brake. That seems more difficult to come out of it then because the way I do it Iam already not rolling back but when I tried his way later on not only did I roll more but almost stalled trying.
If you do it this way is there a certain technique?
Is there any truth to the fact that this could be causing some damage either in the long or short run?
I try to take good care of my cars but this being the first 5 speed I have had and only driving less than a week I do not want to cause any damage.

Thanks Everyone

SuDZ

Daniel B. Martin

Your friend is absolutely correct. What you did is an abusive driving practice. Don't do it.

The clutch pedal is used for changing gears. If you aren't in the process of changing gears keep your foot off it.

The gearshift lever is used for changing gears. If you aren't in the process of changing gears keep your hand off it.

Daniel B. Martin

When stopped on a hill, apply the handbrake. When ready to resume travel shift into first gear and coordinate these actions ...
- step gently on the accelerator
- engage the clutch gradually
- as the car begins to strain forward, release the handbrake

After some practice you will be able to do this smoothly and with confidence.

Curt Deiner

iTrader: (1)

Curt Deiner

iTrader: (1)

Sorry...He's right. Take it out of gear, and let out the clutch. On big hills, try the hand brake. Let it out as you put on the gas and let out the clutch. My grandma used to set the hand brake at every light.

SuDZ

Thank guys, Tthis is the trouble of teaching myself how to drive a 5 speed as i go along. I will be doing it the way you said from now on so that I dont keep bad habbits. One other thing? How do you suggest working the clutch/brake at a stop sign or in traffic that is stop and go stop and go?

Thanks

SuDZ

Curt Deiner

iTrader: (1)

Stop signs I don't take it out of gear usually. Stop and go driving, try to pace the car ahead and just go slow in 1st or 2nd, not putting the clutch in and out. If you have to, you have to. Like they say...Enjoy the ride!

1/3There2/3ToGo

I had an '85 Max SE 5-speed befor my curent ride. When I came to stops I left it in gear as that is the law in Colorado. Your car must always be in a gear if the engine is on. Why do you guys suggest that you take it out of gear at stoplights/signs? I also kept it in gear on hills and just had my feet on the clutch and brake pedals. When the light went green I just let off the brake while simultaneously pressing the gas. I would roll back 3" or so, but not very far. You just have to get use to it and time it right.

Kirk

Neptune97

As many people have suggested before, go to www.howstuffworks.com, and check out the automotive section (specifically on how a clutch works).

http://www.howstuffworks.com/clutch.htm

When you have the clutch pedal pressed all the way in, the small teeth like objects on the pressure plate (otherwise knows as the diaghram springs) are bending and holding the entire pressure plate/friction plate assembly off of the flywheel. If you are sitting at a light, this means there is a significant amount of pressure applied to these teeth for several minutes. This is bad...its drastically reducing the life of these springs.

And as for holding the car on a hill using the clutch...this is probably even worse since essentially what you are doing is making the clutch friction plate constantly slip along the flywheel (just enough to provide adequate force to the driveshaft to offset the force of gravity). This too drastically reduces the life of the friction plate (and possibly the flywheel as well).

Daniel B. Martin

Any time your clutch pedal is pressed down, part way or all the way, the throwout bearing is turning at engine speed. When the clutch pedal is all the way up the throwout bearing is turning at zero rpm. If you sit at a traffic light with your foot on the clutch you are wearing the throwout bearing for no good purpose. This part doesn't cost much to buy, but the labor bill to install it is painfully high.

1/3There2/3ToGo

Then how could I get around that since taking it out of gear is illegal? Dumb laws are very annoying.

Kirk

P.S. Im asking because we havent sold my old car yet and I still drive it periodically because I miss shifting.

Daniel B. Martin

I guess you can't get around it. I don't know the law in Colorado, but trust that you do. If there is any doubt in your mind, please inquire with the authorities.

Nick Robinson

Is it bad to keep the car in 1st. Push the clutch all the way down, and put on the ebrake on hills? Thats what i usually do, so i can go when the light turns instead of pushing in clutch, putting in gear, taking off. Its a scond quicker, but the person behind you will apreatite it. Is that ok for the clutch?
Also, isnt it bad to rev, if your in motion... I.E. your driving along and then you push the clutch in and push on the accelerator?

Daniel B. Martin

It's bad for the throwout bearing.

Yes, that is a bad driving practice. It causes the clutch to slip for no good purpose. The clutch friction material doesn't wear at all when the clutch is fully disengaged or fully engaged. It wears when the clutch is slipped.

The clutch should be used for changing gears. If you are not changing gears your foot should not be on the clutch pedal.

Nick Robinson

True that. Thanks =).. i think im going to quote that in my profile. I like it =)

blizz20oma

iTrader: (1)

Heh...I've heard of being car-conscious, but making it a routine to stop while not in gear/not holding in the clutch while at a stop in order to protect the clutch bearing?
Man....I envy the driver that gets Plain Jane down the road
I don't know what's greater - the chance that your clutch bearing goes out prematurely, or the chance that some idiot rear-ends you at a stop when you're in neutral and consequently, you slide out in the middle of the intersection and t-bone a Porsche & the damage to the porsche is ruled your fault because you weren't in gear (even if you say thats not possible, I'm sure my insurance company would do it to me) - but I know which one would be more costly.

Actually, I shouldn't have said that. Im probably out of my league, since I don't know for sure if that's the consequence of what can happen when you're not in gear and you get hit, but from posts I've seen and from reason, I'm guessing that's why people argue why you should stay in gear at a stop.

Anyways...wearing out your bearing/stressing your friction plate/flywheel are just added incentives (to me at least) to get a new clutch & get rid of this darned clutch chatter

Daniel B. Martin

Nissan provides every 5-speed transaxle with a Neutral position for that purpose.

If you want to engage in far-fetched hypotheticals, let's say it was a dump truck with a full load of gravel that hit you from behind. I don't care which type of transmission you have or what gear it is in... your Maxima (whatever is left of it) is going to move forward.

Neptune97

If you think about it, a car that is stopped in first gear will have a BETTER chance of being pushed into the intersection than a car that is in neutral (if it gets rear ended). Just because a car is in first gear does not mean it will resist forward movement better than a car in neutral.

Most likely, if you are stopped at a light, your foot is on the brake....if you get hit from behind, and you manage to keep your foot on the brake the whole time, then it shouldn't matter whether you are in first or neutral...you might end up stalling if you are in first, but either way, you won't go too far forward. However, if you do get hit, and your foot slides off the brake, and you're in first, it seems there would be a good chance that you might let go of the clutch (and since you are moving forward because of the collision, this would be enough to engage 1st gear and you would go straight into the intersection). You might even be lucky enough for your right foot to slide off the brake and hit the accelerator at the same time.

As for that Colorado law...I believe you, but are you sure its not just a law for automatics? ie you can't be in "park" at a stop light??

SuDZ

Didnt realizer this post would create so much attention to it. Are there other tips for driving that are good practice against not hurting the tranny that some might do by bad practice. For example how fast can I let off first or if I go slow off first while taking off and give it a bit too much gas (not spinning tires or anything) and it revs a bit high at first is that bad? What rpm do you typicaly take off at?

SuDZ

multiplexor

what about rocking the car at a stop light...
where you move back a bit, let out the clutch and move forward... push it in again, roll back... is that bad?

i've just started driving manual 3 weeks ago... hehe
the tip about the hills and not useing the clutch to stop... i thought that was bad, but wasn't sure...

Though my other problem now is when i am stopped i end up revving to 1500 or 2k and then let out the clutch slowly cause i don't want to stall...

blizz20oma

iTrader: (1)

One of the reasons I love DBM is because his humor is even drier than my own.

You know what I'm trying to say. How far is too far? The owners manual encourages you to wash your car as soon as possible after rain occurs, dirt gets on the car, water gets on the car, etc. In the Real World®, for a lot of people, this could mean washing their car 2 or 3 times a day. Not to mention it would probably be a good/recommended idea to keep suspension/engine bay/other working, moving parts clean and free of debris, but if you avidly sought after this process, you would spend thrice as much time working on the car than driving it.

I would mention to 5-speed drivers about the ill-advised effects of feathering on a hill (brakes/brake labor are definitely cheaper than clutch parts/clutch labor), but being strict on being in neutral as much as possible to prevent the clutch bearing from going out?

I know that later on today, my clutch bearing is going to go. That, and I'll have to refrain from posting in the future any clutch-involving questions that have symptoms that suggest the bearing is going out, or is out.

SuDZ

That would be a very harsh coincidence, but would you actually admit it on here. hehe

SuDZ

Daniel B. Martin

This is a minor sin. It is not an abusive driving practice but it is using the clutch for no real gain. Instead of rolling back, keep your foot on the brake or use the handbrake.

Daniel B. Martin

Here is a direct quote from the Maxima Owner's Manual. It is printed entirely in bold letters, so the emphasis is Nissan's, not my own.

CAUTION

Do not rest your foot on the clutch pedal while driving. This may cause clutch damage.

Stop your vehicle completely before shifting into R (Reverse).

When the vehicle is stopped for a duration, for example at a stop light, shift to N (Neutral) and release the clutch pedal with the foot brake applied.

So you see I have not invented these rules or exaggerated the instruction given by some nerdy Driver's Ed teacher. I have advocated driving practices which are recommended by Nissan.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

How often do you guys have to use the e-brake on a hill? I've been driving for almost 7 years (all with 5sp's) and never once had to do this. When its time to go I just let off the break, shift into first, and go in one quick motion.

I just assumed that was what everyone did.

As far as the clutch bearing....I know its not a good habbit, but I hold the clutch in at every light if I know I will be there less than a minute. To this day I have never had a problem with clutch bearings (on both my 91 stanza and current max.). (Knock on wood!)

Daniel B. Martin

There is no "right" engine speed for drive-off. It depends on the situation. For a normal gentle start you might let out the clutch at 2000 rpm, feeding gas so you don't dip below 2000. For a more agressive start you would use a higher rpm.

In normal driving the idea is to avoid unneccessary slipping of the clutch. You should go from "pedal all the way down" to "pedal all the way up" as rapidly as you can, consistent with a smooth style. You don't want to lurch forward or "chirp" the tires. You also don't want to slip the clutch more than is necessary.

The clutch friction lining does not wear at all when the pedal is all the way down or all the way up. It is only when the pedal is between those extremes that wear occurs.

Clutch replacement is not inevitable. I do mixed city/highway driving. My driving style is moderate. I have never worn out a clutch, even in cars driven more than 150K miles.

Daniel B. Martin

I do this occasionally, when the situation calls for it. If the hill is especially steep I use the handbrake. If there is another car just inches from my rear bumper I use it.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Holy Crapola! Do NOT continue this practice! Slipping the clutch just to keep the car in one position on a hill WILL EITHER GLAZE THE CLUTCH OR WEAR OUT THE CLUTCH DISC IN VERY SHORT ORDER.

Let's examine much much wear your doing. Let's say each time you shift the disc is slipping for maybe 1 sec(probably 1/2 sec though). If you sitting on a hill w/ the clutch constantly slipping for let's say 30 seconds, your doing 30times the wear and tear on that clutch disc EACH TIME YOU DO THIS.

SuDZ

Lots of good info on this thread. Thanks for the help.

SuDZ

multiplexor

And i quote,

"Daniel B. Martin
Nissan owner and D-I-Y mechanic "

curious... what's the D-I-Y mean?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

(D)o (I)t (Y)ourself mechanic.

That's means lotsa practical knowledge about the maintance and repairs of his car + armed to the teeth with service manuals.

multiplexor

oh yeah... that's it..

Bling bling

thanx

gryps

third day i got my 5spd max i was rear ended by a semi, a "gental tap" just minor bumper damage my foot was off the brake and the car was in N by the time i realized what was going on i was at the other end of the intersection

Daniel B. Martin

D-I-Y stands for Do-It-Yourself. In other words I am a hobbyist, an amateur, a shade-tree mechanic. I have never been employed in any part of the auto business. I have no "insider" information.

blizz20oma

iTrader: (1)

Just to clarify, I never questioned that such a practice would wear out the bearing. I merely stated that the difference between holding the clutch in at a stop and putting it in neutral, in the grand scheme of things, would probably mean your clutch bearing/clutch would last an extra 2,500 miles in the end, all other practices aside. To me, that's not worth those once-in-a-blue-moon occassions where the lever has a hard time fully engaging in 1st, and you have to take the time to quickly double-clutch it as the people behind you get irritated. It seems like such a non-issue to me (I just keep posting messages about it, because in disguise, I'm a post-*****)

There are a lot of things in owner's manuals (such as the car washing statement I brought up earlier) that I won't deny are good practices in concept, but are there in a disclaimer-type sense. Do you adjust all mirrors, your seat position, and the steering wheel tilt every time before you drive? You never know, that last bump could have thrown off the rearview just enough to cause an accident on the next drive (and as you already know, it is against the manual to adjust these things while driving)....

Neptune97

With all due respect, unless you've done a thorough study of this (using the same driver, multiple cars, identical clutches, etc...), you (and I) can't possibly begin to come up with an accurate estimate for the damage you are doing by keeping the car in 1st gear at every stop. Its because of this fact that people on the org (as well as Nissan manuals) recommend not doing it. Its been proven that you ARE doing damage, its just difficult to quantify.

SuDZ

I have moved away from what I originaly said I was doing and more of the neutral and ebrakeing on hills. I finally got it down after a few tries and just wanted to say thanks for the advice on how to help the longevity of my car.

Thank Again

SuDZ