Jbeck

When i put my key in the ignition, everything is normal.
All the dash lights come on, everything.

When I turn the key to "start" the car doesn't crank at all - nothing happens.
No clicking, nothing. It's as if I have a dead battery.
If I hold the key in the start position for ~1 minute the car will start,
although lately it has been taking as long as 3 minutes.

All the battery cables are new, ground is secure.
I have a DMM, any tests I could perform to find out what is causing this?
It's getting cold in WI (lows in the mid 30's at night) and it kills me to sit in my cold car waiting for it to turn over.

sanford7575

Dude, same thing happened on my '97 Maxima SE.
Re-check the battery, the battery ground, ignition fuses, and starter. If it's none of those, then it's the ignition switch. Mine had a short, and it wasn't solved until I replaced the entire unit. You can change the switch wiring, or the entire unit (Key mechanism & ignition switch).

DBear

Before you replace the lock cylinder, make sure you don't have the dreaded slop. See my posts 13 and 18 here. http://forums.maxima.org/4th-generat...ml#post7075437 Also search for "slop" on the forum, there are a lot of threads. The fix is much easier and cheaper than putting in a new lock cylinder.

Jbeck

Alright Dbear, I know you're kind of an expert on this topic so this one's directed towards you!
I took apart the steering column and fidgeted with the ignition switch.
Well, it still wouldn't start with a screwdriver or key in it.

So here's exactly what happens.

I put the key in the ignition, everything seems normal. I turn it to the "on" position, everything is still normal. All the lights are on as they should be - Airbag (for a few seconds), parking brake, etc. When I turn it to the "start" position, the radio turns off like it usually does when you go to crank the engine, but nothing happens as far as it turning over.
If I sit there with the key in the "start" position for an average time of a minute to a minute and a half, the car cranks and starts right up.
If the car is running for a while and then I shut it off, then go to start it again it takes significantly less time, usually less than 10 seconds.

Maybe 1 out of 20 times it starts within 3 seconds.

Like I said, battery is a new Interstate battery, the cables are new, alternator is a little over a year old, I don't know what to do now. Any suggestions?

smokeypotter

Really sounds like the ignition switch. Pull the switch out of the back of the lock cylinder, and with the key in the lock cylinder (if you have the transponder key) turn the ignition switch manually with a screwdriver. Turn it somewhat slowly as some let you turn it too far. This let's you go past the burnt part of the switch to hopefully a good spot.

A new ignition switch isn't all that expensive, but try not to get the cheapest one. I had a bad experience with the first one I got.

In the meantime you can carry around a screwdriver to jump the starter with if it won't start with the key or switch. Just reach down to the right of the airbox/starter. Find the starter motors battery connection (bigger post with rubber boot) then run the screwdriver from that to the post to the left (small soldiered post) on the solenoid. With the key in the on position, should start it up.

M in KC

If you have trouble shot everything to this point (battery, cables, connections, relays, iggy switch) replace your starter. The trigger solenoid sounds like its on its way out. Mine did the exact same thing you are describing until it completely failed.

smokeypotter

try jumping the starter like in my post above

"In the meantime you can carry around a screwdriver to jump the starter with if it won't start with the key or switch. Just reach down to the right of the airbox/starter. Find the starter motors battery connection (bigger post with rubber boot) then run the screwdriver from that to the post to the left (small soldiered post) on the solenoid. With the key in the on position, should start it up."

if it works, and u dont have to hold the screwdriver there for 1-3minutes like ur key, then the solenoid/starter is fine.

DBear

Yeah, I'm inclined to think it's your starter too. If it were me, I'd toss in a new ignition switch from the dealer, since they were only about $30 the last time I got one, but it that didn't work with a screwdriver I'd have the starter tested.

Jbeck

Sorry guys, I haven't been on here in about a week. So randomly I got it to start instantly upon turning it to the "start" position, and then every time after that for that day, it would start like a jewel.

The next morning I go to start it, and it's back to being a PITA. Haha.
Then the next day I held it for probably over 4 minutes and...no start. So I have given up on trying to start it with the key, and it has sat at my GFs house for the past week. The next time I get over there I'll try to jump the starter and let you guys know how that goes.

Just curious, does the key have to be in the ignition to start the car with the ignition switch? As in...if I have the ignition switch out and am turning it with a screwdriver, do I have to have the key in the ignition?

deezo

iTrader: (3)

You sound as if you're having the same issue I'm having. I've gone thru the starter and ignition switch. I'm going to try shimming the ignition switch to see if that prevents any play within the flange that is inserted into the switch. Hopefully that will allow the car to start normally without me having to turn the key with so much speed and force behind it. That's the only way my car will start every time now.

Jbeck

Okay UPDATE -

I tried to jump the starter, when I bridged the contacts the starter was spinning like a madman. So I'm assuming that's good. Also if I have someone else turn the key and my head is under the hood, I can hear a faint click.

When I jump the starter was the car supposed to start? Because it didn't. Even if I had my friend turn the key while I jumped the starter.

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

The ignition key has to be in the ON position for the car to start when you jump the starter.

If you are able to jump the starter, you evidently have the air filter box removed. I'm not sure about this, but with the MAF unplugged, the car may not start.

But since you have the air box out, get a voltmeter or test light and see if you are getting voltage on the starter solenoid trigger wire when the key is turned to the START position. See TEST POINT A in the photo below. If you do not have 12 volts, then either the ignition switch or the inhibitor relay is not working.

If you have an automatic transmission, have you tried wiggling the transmission shift lever around while the key is turned or had the shift lever in neutral? The park/neutral switch is a possible problem for no start.

Jbeck

Alright, will do. And no I don't have the airbox removed but I do have a cold air intake that runs down into the fender, thus removing the airbox all together.

I am just curious though, why would the starter spin like that? Does this indicate anything? Did I jump the wrong terminals or anything?

DBear

I'm getting confused. When it doesn't start, does the starter spin at all? If it doesn't, but the dash lights all go on, I'd strongly suspect the slop. Yes, you can start the car without the key in the lock if you use a screwdriver in the ignition switch itself. If that works every time, you probably have slop.

When I was dealing with this I eventually discovered that I could usually get it to start if I tried enough times. If you just turned it to start and held the key there for 4 minutes, try turning the key to start like you normally would, then let it come back to On. Then try it again, over and over if necessary.

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

I guess I'm getting a little confused myself.

when you jumped the starter and it "spins", is the engine getting cranked or is it just the motor spinning?

Referencing back to the photo I posted:
Test Point A is the solenoid trigger wire.
Test Point B is the starter motor windings.
Test Point C is the cable from the battery.

To jump the starter so that the car would start, you need to jumper Test Points A and C.

If you Jumper Test Points B and C, the starter motor will spin but the starter motor gear does not extend out to engage the flywheel gear. The starter motor gear is extended by the solenoid, which does not get energized when you jumper Test Point B.

Jbeck

My bad, I did accidentally bridge points B and C.
I went back to bridge points A and C, and the motor turns over but will not start. I've never had an issue with it turning over but not starting. Every time it starts to turn over, it fires up instantly. Just not when I'm jumping the starter.



Well when it doesn't start, nothing happens whatsoever. I turn the key to "start" and....nothing. All the dash lights are on though. However, I already had the ignition switch out, and was turning it with a screwdriver. This did not make even a slight difference to my issue. I have also tried turning the key to start and then releasing and repeating, over and over, until I did it probably 40 times. It really won't do anything for me unless I hold it in the start position.

Jbeck

By the way guys I'm really thankful for you sticking around, trying to help out so much.
I am a 20 year old who is between jobs (actually starting my new one on Monday! ) so going to a shop is REALLY not an option at this point, considering my phone bill and car insurance etc. etc.. :/

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

OK. The ignition key needs to be in the START position for the engine to start, whether it be normally or by jumpering the starter terminals. When the Ignition key in in the START position, 12 volts is sent to the ECU on pin 20.

Exactly what this does, I don't know. It is not in the Nissan service manual for the 4th gens. I saw a reference to a S/SIG in the power distribution diagram and no where else. I had to read the 5th gen service manual to discover this little circuit and then scan the ECU pinouts in the 4th gen to see if there was a comparable signal in the 4th gen. The 5th gen manual doesn't say what the ecu does or doesn't do when the 12 volts is missing, but since it is referred to as the START Signal, it obviously is needed.

Thank you Nissan - you Bozos.

Jbeck

Haha brilliant. Alright, I guess I'll have to have the gf hold the key in the start position.
I suppose if it turns over like this or if it starts like this, the issue probably lies in the lock cylinder or ignition switch as opposed to the actually starter/solenoid itself?

deezo

iTrader: (3)

The car isn't going to start by jumping the starter. Try shimming the ign switch as DBear has been recommending all over the forums. It worked in my case.

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

Whether the car will start by jumping the starter is getting us sidetracked from the problem. The fact that the starter works when jumpered and is intermittent when the key is turned tells us that the starter is OK.

With a proven history of slop between the ignition switch and the key cylinder, you try shimming the ignition switch. If it works - wonderful. If it doesn't, replace the switch.

Jbeck

As I've already said, I have had the ignition switch out already!
I tried turning it with a screwdriver and it did nothing.
What is shimming the switch going to do if I already had the switch out and tried turning it manually and it wouldn't work?

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

If the ignition switch is bad, it doesn't make any difference as to what is turning it, screwdriver or ignition switch.

While ignition switches are the cause of 99% of all "My starter doesn't work when I turn the key" problems, there is a remote chance a relay is not working. So before you run out and buy an ignition switch, do this test. You will need either a test light or a voltmeter.

Remove the relay labeled INHIBIT/CLUTCH INTERLOCK from the relay box in front of the battery. If the car has an automatic transmission, place the test light/voltmeter in pin 6 of the relay socket. If the car has a manual transmission, place the test light/voltmeter in pin 3 of the relay socket. The pin numbers are on the bottom of the relay and I think also on the relay socket. Connect the other end of the test light or voltmeter to ground.

Turn the key to the START position. If the test light does not light or the voltmeter indicate 12 volts, you have a bad ignition switch.

If you did get 12 volts, re-install the relay and connect your tester to Test Point A per the photo I posted earlier in post # 12. Turn the key to the START position. If you have 12 volts here, we have a contradiction with earlier diagnostics. This would indicate a bad starter, which does work when jumped.

Jbeck

Alright, I'll definitely give that a shot tomorrow. I have both a digital multimeter and a test light.

So I have one last question - when I was jumping the starter, I'd have to have the girlfriend turn the key to "START" while I was bridging the connections on the starter solenoid.
Had I not been bridging the connections, I may have had to hold the key on START for several minutes before the car would start turning over.
While I am bridging the connections, the split second the girlfriend puts the key in the START position, the engine fires right up.
I don't even try to start the car without jumping the starter anymore.

My question is, could the ignition switch possibly even be the culprit? It seems as if it's working fine since as soon as the girlfriend turns the key it would start right up - as long as I'm simultaneously jumping the starter.



Either way, I will test the voltages of said components tomorrow morning and report back.

djchan

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like your contacts in the solenoid are worn down. The sequence in starters is, turn key, sends signal to the solenoid to shoot the gear out, as gear is at the bottom of its travel it bridges the contacts to start the motor that turns the gear that is meshed with your flywheel. Release tension on key the solenoid plunger retracts bringing the gear with it. Don't know 'bout max's solenoids but just replaced the contacts in my Lexus for $15 instead of $200 for a rebuilt starter.

box12360

My car will not turn over! Once I turn the key in the start position I can hear clicking in the car (maybe a relay) only once not the starter clicking its silent.

1. Does this signify that I don't have a slop problem since its engaging the relay?

Last week I had the same issue. I had a friend come over to help me get it started and we checked the solenoid and voltages. I would turn the key over and the smaller of the three wires where the siginal comes from the car would get voltage ( little over 1 if i remember correctly.) The solder on that wire was looked as though it was coming off. I replaced the solenoid. It started for 3 days and on one of those starts it felt as though the starter lost juice (Was with the new solenoid). Today i drove it to work and when i went to go on my lunch break it would not start. I could hear the initial click when i turned the key( sounds like a relay) but nothing from the starter. Maybe its been the starter the whole time??

3. Could it be the starter? (150k miles on the starter original starter)

4. I want to burn the car to the ground!! lol

DBear

box12360--

I've never had occasion to get in and measure voltages, but when I had the slop problem I usually heard something click. It sounded like it was coming from behind the cluster, but I didn't try to track it down.

Jbeck

Well I ordered a new ignition switch from Napa today, will be here on Wednesday morning.
I'll let you guys know what happens after that, haha.

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

I think that you are overlooking the fact that the ignition switch is not as simple of a device as you apparently seem to think. The ignition switch is multiple switches built into one physical blob. Each wire attached to the back side of the ignition switch is a circuit or, as you might say, a switch. All these switches operate at the same time.

It seems that the contacts inside the switch that are for the starter are the only ones that ever go bad. When my car wouldn't start, I took my ignition switch apart and discovered that the leading edge of the starter contacts were burned up, no doubt due to sparking when the contacts first touched.

Back in post # 18, I found that there is 12 volts sent to the ECU by the starter switch. Nissan calls this the start signal. While the ignition switch could have bad contacts for the starter, there is that other circuit in the ignition switch that is still good and doing its job of telling the ECU that you want to start the car.

So when you turn the key to the START position, the ignition switch sends the START signal to the ECU, but it does not send 12 volts to the starter solenoid. So with you jumpering the starter solenoid, the engine starts.

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

in the older GM cars, the contact was a big round copper plate that you could flip over and no part was needed.

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

When you put the key in the ignition switch and turn it to the on position, there are several relays under the dash that energize. The Ignition relay, the Fuel Pump relay, the Blower Motor relay are a couple of them. When everything is working fine, you won't hear these relays because the noise created by the starter cranking the engine drowns them out.

The solenoid on the starter is also a relay and because of the amount of the electrical windings in the solenoid, it makes a very loud click when it energizes. But once again, when everything is working fine, you don't hear this click because the noise created by the starter cranking the engine drowns it out. Now if the contacts in the solenoid are bad, the starter motor won't spin but you will hear the loud click of the contacts closing.

In your case, the solenoid on the starter was not being energized. When you and your friend measured the voltage on the thin wire (the solenoid trigger wire), you measured only 1 volt. That was 11 volts shy of what it should have been. It should have been 12 volts, or more accurately, battery voltage.

That voltage comes from the ignition switch. I would say that the solenoid was OK.

Jbeck

Well, I ran down to Napa today because my ignition switch had arrived.
When I came home the first thing I did was put the new switch in. When I tried it out, nothing.
Problem still exists. I even tried turning the new one with a screwdriver. It is not an issue of slop, nor is it an issue of a "bad" ignition switch.

Any next best guesses? Why would my car fire right up when I jump the starter solenoid and have somebody turn the key simultaneously?
Bad solenoid? Bad starter? Bad relay?

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

The starter is not the problem. It starts the car when jumped.

And it seems fairly certain that the ignition switch is not the problem (note that I am not saying 100%). So let's move down the line in the circuitry. When the ignition switch is in the START position, it sends 12 volts to the inhibitor relay. The inhibitor relay is another switch controlled by the theft system. You will have to get a voltmeter or test light to check this.

Back in post # 23:

Remove the relay labeled INHIBIT/CLUTCH INTERLOCK from the relay box in front of the battery. If the car has an automatic transmission, place the test light/voltmeter in pin 6 of the relay socket. If the car has a manual transmission, place the test light/voltmeter in pin 3 of the relay socket. The pin numbers are on the bottom of the relay and I think also on the relay socket. Connect the other end of the test light or voltmeter to ground.

Turn the key to the START position. If the test light does not light or the voltmeter does not indicate 12 volts, you have a bad ignition switch.

If you did get 12 volts, the ignition switch is OK. Re-install the relay and connect your tester to Test Point A per the photo I posted earlier in post # 12. Turn the key to the START position. If you have 12 volts here, we have a contradiction with earlier diagnostics. This would indicate a bad starter, which does work when jumped.

If no voltage at Test Point A, this is either a bad relay or the theft system is screwing with you.

Let me know how this goes. Also, please let me know if you have a manual trans or automatic. The electrical circuitry is different between the two transmissions.

Jbeck

Okay thank you for such clear instructions, I have a digital multimeter so I can test for voltage no problem. I probably won't get to it today due to a longer workday today, but tomorrow shouldn't be an issue. Oh and I have a 5M transmission.

theWalkinator

Clean the connector between starter solenoid and starter with sand paper.

djchan

iTrader: (2)

Just replace your solenoid. By using your screwdriver you're bypassing the internal solenoid contacts. 1st try sanding like the above post said. Or just rebuild it like here http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbend...ir_-bosch-.htm

djchan

iTrader: (2)

This link is probably better for you.

http://www.aircooledtech.com/solenoid_repair/

IMO, spend the $35. and just replace it.

jfactor

Key mechanism failing is very rare in my experience but the ignition switch is fairly cheap and easy to replace.