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CS-AR...... I thought that only the 95-96 cars needed new tensoners. Do all the 4th Gen need revised tensoners?
I have a 1996. I removed the spring from the tensioner and stretched it a bit less than 1/8 ".
I seldom hear chain noises. My car has 220,000 miles on it. I use synthetic oil.
All VQ30s have tensioners. The pre-1997 models will need a new guide to use the revised tensioner. The 99 model I30 started rattling around 225,000 miles. I've replaced it on a 95 model with a new guide and the 98 model where the new tensioner was a drop in.
I don't understand the part about the hardware store...surely I can buy what I need from Nissan/Infiniti ?
Sure, if you want to pay ten times the price and wait several days for the parts.
I asked where you live because you might want to test the cooling system with water rather than lots of coolant. Cheaper that way. Perfectly safe if there is no chance of frost.
Thanks a lot everyone for the advice and for reallywildstuff for continuing to work on this. It looks like after 2 wks of below freezing temps spring is starting to arrive so I'll be able to revisit my Max this weekend.
Although many have mixed feelings about Scotty Kilmer on YouTube I thought it was timely when a couple of days ago he answered a question about a Ford engine where the water pump was inside and he said that the problem was that it could fail and dump coolant into the engine "and there were some Nissan Z cars which had the same problem"
Dizzy Edge, , thanks for checking in. I was afraid that you gave up on your car.
I've noticed that this forum has link's for similar issues some years ago. This issue came up over ten years ago. People decided head gaskets were the only way coolant could enter the oil. Seems that no one wanted to try fixing the obvious flaw in our cooling system.
I used a Beck Arnley pump on my 99 model 6-7 years ago. No issues. If you haven't already, this will be a good time to replace the timing chain tensioner and install the TSB gasket. I did both my 98 and 99 models a few years ago. I posted a write up on a shortcut for the tensioner installation by making a guide pin to use during installation. I think I could do tensioners blindfolded.
what’s a “TSB gasket”? I know its “Technical Service Bulletin” - but which gasket are we talking about?
all ive got to go on is the parts blow up online at infinitipartsonline (and others) and the FSM...i havent actualy seen these
I used Permatex Ultra Grey RTV.to seal the timing chain and water pump gaskets. I also used it for the lower oil pan .
I did not use any gaskets.
This product comes in a tube. It's a sealing adhesive. It's probably a better seal than paper gaskets would be. It's cheaper as well. It's available at your local auto parts store.
Clean mating surfaces with brake cleaner. You want them to be free from grease and oil. Tighten the bolts loosely. Wait a while, then tighten all bolts to spec once the RTV has solidified some.
Look up exact instructions on the Permatex website.
I rebuilt the engine on my Toyota Corolla .
They recommended a form in place gasket goo they sell at the Toyota dealer for its oil pan.
It seemed to be very similar to Permatex Ultra Gray.
So...what's the total part list look like for me? Anybody want to confirm part numbers for me ?
0. Qty: 2 M8 bolts to remove water pump with - what length? what pitch ?
1. New '98-spec chain tensioner - 13070 - 31U0A
2. TSB tensioner gasket - 13079-31U00
3. "Guide Chain" - 13091-31U26 ** is this necessary ** ?
4. tensioner bolts: 08120-64028
5. Grey Permatex RTV
6. nissan water pump - 21010-31U85
7. two nissan "oil o-rings" - 21049-ZL80B
8. two nissan "coolant o-rings" - 21049-ZL80A
These last three re: this comment above: "And FWIW, I always buy two sets of Nissan only O-rings for the water pump. If you destroy one or one set of O-rings due to improper install, you have a spare. Again I'll suggest only using a Nissan pump as well.
Is that it ? Are there any more parts to replace while I'm in there? Is one of those two o-rings the suspected point of failure ?
other things I'll need:
10 quarts of cheap oil
2 cheap filters
5 quarts of good oil
1 good filter
oil drain plug crush gaskets x 3 (although I'll probably take the lower pan off instead, to clean the pickup etc.)
Thanks for the support. I'm going to take another set of compression readings tomorrow - and hopefully get the water pump inspection cover off to observe the leak directly. Probably order the parts next - don't want to take the tensioner and water pump apart too far in advance, don't want to forget how it goes back together - and also not 100% certain that parts are going to be delivered as regularly as normal during this global pandemic we are all living in
No point taking more compression readings. They were good, and haven't changed. Do that once it's put back together if you absolutely insist . Might as well do the block test for head gasket peace of mind..... since you insist.
used oil wI'll work as well as cheap oil. Change the fliter every time you do an oil change.
you don't need the gaskets for the timing covers and water pump.
There will be about 1/2 quart of mixed oil and coolant in the oIL pump and internal engone passages. Or about ten percent contamination.
Most sludge will be in the filter. Which is why it should be changed each time.
1st oil change will be after the timing chain has stopped rattling and the cooling system is filled.
9/10 of that oil will he replaced. Leaving 1 percent contamination. Use cheap or used oil.
Second oil change should be after 50 miles. There will be 1/10 of 1 precent contamination. Use cheap or used oil. New filter
Most on line sources recommend an additional oil change at 500 miles. That will allow any remaining moisture to boil off and leave residue. New filter.
Use cheap oil. Or use good oil and a good filter.
your call....
don't need the bolts for the tensioner. Re use the existing ones.
Mostly, relax . Chill out. Not all parts need to come from Nissan. The Beck Arnly one is probably Nissan OEM anyway. I've found Nissan packing materials and Nissan stickers in the Beck Arnly boxes.
It's your money if you want to spend two or three times what you need to.
Since you seem to doubt or discount most of what I say, I'm left wondering why I should bother responding to your posts. I seem to be respected by most of the other members.
Please tell me why you don't want to listen to me.
Just curious......
In this post, you'll see how I cut the head off one of the tensioner bolts to make a guide pin for easy installation. Review the picture closely. Remove the guide pin as soon as you get one of the real bolts started. Then use a new bolt to replace the guide pin.
The guide pin has saved a lot of time during tensioner installation.
No point taking more compression readings. They were good, and haven't changed. Do that once it's put back together if you absolutely insist . Might as well do the block test for head gasket peace of mind..... since you insist.
...
Since you seem to doubt or discount most of what I say, I'm left wondering why I should bother responding to your posts. I seem to be respected by most of the other members.
Please tell me why you don't want to listen to me.
Just curious......
Dude. I'm pursuing this repair primarily _becuase_ of what you are saying. My desire to buy OEM parts isn't an indictment of your advice - just a personal preference. My job and family obligations are what has prevented me the opportunity to execute quicker - and again, not a dismissal of your advice. I don't have any used oil on hand.
ALSO - with respect, you are "only" a single data-point (just as any other single user is). You advised seeking out CS_AR and The Wizard - and now here's Craig, saying the same things you are. The Wizard must still be in Moria or something.
THANK YOU for your advice. I do appreciate it.
I'd still like to hear more about what the specs on those M8 bolts look like, as well as the balance of the parts list I provided.
The bolts are M-8. They should be about an inch to 1 1/2 long, as I've already said. They screw into the water pump flange, which is 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick. Then they screw in about an other half inch until the pump is loose. They are a wider diameter than the bolts which attach the water pump, but use the same hole.
You might have some screws like that iin a junk bolt csn like i have. Or they are are at your local hardware store in the metric bolts drawer.
They don't need to have a specific hardness spec.
They are just a tool. Chinesium grade is ok.
I removed the drive belt, the tensioner, and the water pump inspection cover. After having previously drained the radiator via the petcock, i filled the system with 4 quarts of water. i then applied the radiator pressure cap test kit and pumped it to 20psi.
I expected to see "a coolant leak" from the vicinity of the water pump. Instead I see "nothing" leaking from that area.
I then filled the coolant system all the way to the top and re-applied the pressure tester. Again - no coolant leak was observed at the water pump.
I then drained the oil - lots of water in the oil still, although it only came out to ~5 quarts - at first. I left it draining - 1 drip every 2 seconds - to come inside and write this post. Its leaking coolant out the oil drain hole. It will probably still be leaking out the drain hole when I head back out there.
I realize that filling the coolant system to the top doesn't help diagnose anything. I will maybe remove the coolant via the petcock again and re-test while observing output of the oil drain hole...but I don't expect to suddenly see coolant coming out the water pump when it didn't before.
Keep in mind that thw water pump has two seals. One in the front and one in the back.
So it's possible that the back one is leaking, but you don't see it. That's the same seal which was crunchy and kinda fused to the pump housing when I did mine.
Seems you have two choices .
Assume it's a head gasket (it most likely isnt) and sell it to the jy.
Or fix the water pump based on faith alone, and from what both CS-AR and myself have said. Also mentioned on the Scotty Kilmer chanel which Dizzy Edge just mentioned.
Your call.
Choice One means you sell a dead car.
Choice Two
Possible outcomes.
1. A new pump stops the leaking so you can drive your car.
2. Even after installing a new water pump, it still leaks because it really does have a head gasket issue. Which would mean that you wasted your time and money. Money which could have been half as much if you would purchased and not puchased what I recommended.
3. The leak stops but we find the bearings are really bad.
I'd say you have a 90 percent chance of a successful outcome with Option 2
It's not a perfect world. We pay our money and we take our chances.
Us DIY mechanics win most of the time. Which means we lose occasionally.
I emptied the radiator again, and refilled the system with 2 quarts of soapy water. Then re-pressurized with radiator cap test kit.
Still no leaking observed around the water pump Still a s-l-o-w drip from the oil drain plug.
JvG - I've now read your most recent post, thank you. All six plugs did look identical (carbonized - no single one or more was steam-cleaned). I don't see any soapy water coming out of anywhere (yet) - but I just don't know about replacing the water pump on faith alone.
I emptied the radiator again, and refilled the system with 2 quarts of soapy water. Then re-pressurized with radiator cap test kit.
Still no leaking observed around the water pump Still a s-l-o-w drip from the oil drain plug.
JvG - I've now read your most recent post, thank you. All six plugs did look identical (carbonized - no single one or more was steam-cleaned). I don't see any soapy water coming out of anywhere (yet) - but I just don't know about replacing the water pump on faith alone.
Choice 1 has a failure rate of 100 percent.
You will lose your car.
Choice 2 has a 10 percent failure rate.
You will probably be able to save your car.
No guarantee
I'm an optimist who has taken mostly successful risks like this for about fifty years.
I'm changing my water pump. I've got TWO questions:
I've got the tensioner cover off. I see WHAT is supposed to happen (plunger moved all the way left until a pin can be inserted into the hole, holding the plunger back) - but I don't know how I'm supposed to actually make that happen with the two hands I've got in _this_ Universe.
1. What is the correct TECHNIQUE for retracting the plunger / inserting the pin ? From the top, or the bottom ? Any details re: "actually getting it done" appreciated.
I'm also removing the lower oil pan re: cleaning out slime ./ cleaning the pickup screen after my little milkshake mis-adventure. I have removed all the bolts from the lower pan; unsurprisingly, the lower pan is stuck on the aluminum upper pan "real good". I read the warning in the FSM about not deforming the aluminum pan with a screwdriver.
2. What TOOL available in this Universe am I supposed to buy / use to separate the lower oil pan from the aluminum pan ? There's one shown in the FSM - where do I get one of those ?
Both these questions posted here before searching for myself. Appreciate any timely pointers in the right direction.
Start with watching the you tube videos which cover replacing the water pump. They should answer most of your questions.
As I recall, the general concept of retracting the tensionet plunger involves leveraging or twisting a tool in one hand to force the plunger in.
The other hand is used to shove a large bent paper clip into the hole in the tensioner housing.
I removed the oil pan from my Corolla by shoving a narrow putty knife through the seal between the oil pan and the engine block. Tap it in with light taps with a hammer. Or perhaps a kitchen knif of some kind could cut through the seal as well.
There is a 3 part you tube video by Bored Minder on yt. It is called 1995-2001 Nissan maxim's water pump. The section of how to retract the piston starts perhaps 5 minutes before the end of the first video.
I'm going to put more time into this project this weekend. The last couple of days/weeks have been hard at work and hard at home. Not to mention the whole Global Pandemic bring-down thing... Now that the shock of losing use of the car has subsided I'm able to wrap my head around trying to get it back on the road. Maybe that's hard to understand...
I will certainly keep this forum updated on my progress / results. Thank you all for your courtesy.
Well guys (and gals?)...I am ashamed to say that I have butchered the sh*t out of this.
I got the tensioner out, and turned the crank back twenty degrees. I then proceeded to break first one and then the other water pump mounting tabs by RUSHING and not turning only 1/4 turn at a time on each. When I broke the first tab (the upper right one), the ratchet flew away from the engine with such force that it cracked the timing cover from the inside.
I eventually managed to wrangle the water pump out (had to pull the chain nearly clear of the timing cover to get enough slack to force the chain off the water pump gears) - however, in my flailing about, I'm pretty sure I heard the cams closet to the firewall go "click" _at_least_ once...and now there is seemingly not enough slack on the chain on the water pump side to install the new pump. I have to put every strength I have into pulling the chain clear of the hole the water pump is supposed to go into - nothing at all like the seemingly easy solution shown in the videos - and that doesn't leave any strength to, you know, actually try to place the water pump into the hole without mangling the o-rings.
The old water pump's o-rings were intact - but the rubber seals in the inner bushing were coming out the backside of the pump. So MAYBE that was the culprit.
So at this point:
I have cracked the outer timing cover - it will leak oil.
I have almost certainly screwed up the timing - I read this will cause a hard miss on 1 & 6, probably also something else really exciting like piston/valve interference.
I have mangled the timing chain/possibly the inner race of the pump cavity with a screwdriver in my attempts to get the water pump out / try to get it back in.
I have also cut the holy living snot out of my fingers and knuckles. AND lots of cursing / time spent away from my wife and children, who are stuck at home. Oh yeah and I leaned on the overflow reservoir tank too hard and managed to break that too (leaks out the bottom).
What to do ? Is there a way out? And all of this is without knowing whether it really was just the water pump that failed...
I did not mean to butcher this job or this car. I tried my best and have (so far) failed - spectacularly so. Apologies to everyone who was keeping the faith...
You could have gained more room to get the chain off the water pump sprocker by rotating the engine a tad more than you did.
Or you could have stopped working on it while you asked for advise.
the water pump is walked out a bit at a time by tightening one bolt at a time, or loosening the one you just over tightened a bit ,then tightening the other one.
You let your emotions get in control of the situation.
I'll have to read your latest post some more.
seems like you need a replacement timing cover.
Let's see what other members say.
In the future, on this car, any other car, or any mechanical device...... if something doesn't seem to be working...... take a break . Walk Away..... research. .... meditate..... do exactly nothing till you relieve your frustrations.
Pull on the chain a bit to keep it under a bit of tension.
Rotate the crankshaft bolt some more to create more slack. Then the new water pump will fit.
Take and post photo of the back side of the water pump.
especially the area you mentioned about a distorted seal. It's almost certainly the cause of the original leak.
One of the members who told you to remove the pump is female with considerable experience.
She has replaced the pump in both of her Maximas.
the crack is under the gasket area. It does not seem to extend past that.
two options.
1. Clean the area off very well with a razor blade.
2. Fill the crack with JB Weld 2 part metal epoxy,
make sure all of it is flush with the casting.
3. Use the official gasket I said not to buy.
This method will probably not leak.
Or what I myself want you to do.
1 remove the sealing stuff
2 Buy the Permatex Ultra Gray RTV I told you to buy in the first place. Throw the official gasket in the trash. Follow the instructions on the tube.
Apply more generously to the cracked area, and also to the left of the water pump cover area.
This method almost certainly won't leak.
The crack does NOT look catasrophic.
now about the noise you heard.
You will need to rotate the engine clockwise after the pump has been installed. Rotate for at least 2 full revolutions of the crankshaft pulley
I want you to remove the spark plugs again.
You will be feeling for any binding in the engine.
if there is some, you might have messed up the timing. You might feel a valve touch a piston.
If you do, the timing cover will need to be removed.
But you probably won't feel that happening.
Do this procedure while the covers are still off. You can see what is happening
I noticed that the instructions about rotating the engine 20 degrees were probably not correct. It seemed that 30 degrees was more like it. It has to create enough slack to be able to slip the pump past the chan without FORCING things.
re: rotating the crank more - there is no slack to speak of on the tensioner side of the chain - i.e., rotating the crank some more will certainly cause the firewall-side cams to turn
re: rotating the crank more - there is no slack to speak of on the tensioner side of the chain - i.e., rotating the crank some more will certainly cause the firewall-side cams to turn
That's axactly what we want them to do.
That's how members and mechanics get the pump out without forcing things like you have done. You need more slack in the timing chain.
one big caution. Now that the pump is out there is nothing to keep the chain from slipping on the sprocket teeth other than the chain tension you need to give it.
The engine will be hard to turn against its own compression. That's one of the reasons you need to remove all the spark plugs. It won't fight your efforts once that is done.
1. Remove all the spark plugs.
2 keep the chain under tension by pulling it towards the right, away from where the water pump was.
While the chain is under tension rotate the crank pulley counter clockwise till there is enough room to insert the water pump also enough so that it will clear the ear on the water pump.
3. Lubricate the inside of the water pump cavity in the engine with fresh antifreeze. Also the water pump O rings. We want them slippery.
4. Partly insert the water pump. Fit the chain over the water pump sprocket. Insert pump the rest of the way. Don't Force Things.
So...this is much easier when there's enough slack on the chain. I got the pump in, turned the crank back to where I started, and installed the tensioner.
QUESTION: Did I jump the timing? There's a video below of turning the crank clockwise several revolutions...there's definitely a noise (actually two noises) but not any "binding" per se...the noises are always in the same "places" along the rotation path. I don't have another engine (that I didn't butcher the sh*t out of) to compare against...
So,,,just for the record I'm embarrassed as hell about this whole deal, and responding to this thread with <anything at all> won't hurt my feelings any more than they already are. I do need to move on some how - however I would like more input from maxima.org before proceeding. JvG has been very helpful throughout and I'd like to Acknowledge his gracious efforts here.
Because I didn't have the motor turned far enough backwards before trying to remove the water pump, the chain wasn't loose enough on the water pump for it to come out freely. I forced it, broke the water pump ears, and broke the timing cover too. For a final act, in my flailing about to get more slack on the chain - I fear I also jumped the timing.
Now that I've got the water pump and tensioner back in - you can hear two noises in the video above. Each arrives when both the single and double "ears" on the crank pulley edge arrive near the timing mark.
QUESTION: Are those noises TO BE EXPECTED after R&Ring the tensioner/water pump - or are those the sounds of a piston hitting something ? There is no "binding" to my feel on the wrench/crank snout when those noises happen - however I'm pretty sure those aren't healthy sounds. OR, are those part of the "rattle" that's supposed to be present after this procedure ?
This thread was about coolant in the oil - replacing the water pump was only a guess at fixing it. After all that's happened (and after there were no responses to my post above) I had thought "F-it", I'll just put it back together and see what happens - however that seems like it may not be prudent. I could instead proceed to removing/replacing the timing cover and investigating the timing marks...UNLESS the consensus is that it's "normal" to hear those sounds after replacing the water pump / tensioner with new ones.
I know its a mess either way - there's so much RTV on the timing cover now (covering the cracks) it's obvious it was Amateur Hour on the water pump replacement. Just looking for the best path forward now - keeping in mind (in the back of the mind) that the original "coolant in oil" condition MAY have been due to something OTHER than the water pump. YES, again, I know - I made this a much bigger mess than it already was.
Picture of the back of the water pump is below showing rubber bushing coming out the center back of the impeller. Also shows cracks in the black O-ring.
the bent blades on the water pump show that you really forced things really hard.
the black O ring on the water pump show lots of cracks. Difficult to tell now if the cracks were there in the first place or appeared when you forced the water pump loose. Is that seal still pliable, or kinda
hard and crunchy. EDIT. It has small cracks all over the edge of the O ring. I'm pretty confident that is where the leak came from.
I mentioned that you should watch a recent Scotty Kilmer video about internal water pumps. It's about hoe they can leak into the oil pan. He specificly mentions that the VQ engine can can do that.
the o ring has lots of small age related cracks. They would have leaked like a sieve it was the inside o ring, so you could not see leaking as you would have if the outer o ring cracked.
the pump blade could only have been bent like that if you tried to extract the pump with a crowbar.
Also the reason the pump was hard to extract was that the timing chain was still tightly attached to the pump.
that would have caused strain on the timing chain cover, hence the crack I saw. I think that the pump impeller has dragged on the inside of chain cover.
That would mean drag mark gouges inside the well the pump lives in. That probably messed up the sealing area of the outer O ring.
it's also likely that the pump impeller might have cracked the pump cover from the inside.
Perhaps there is an additional problem with the chain it's self now. Imagine what would happen to a bicycle chain if you grabbed it with a plier and twisted it sideways. The links would bend and twist. The chain would tend to bind when it contacts the gears and durailer.
I'm afraid that you have done some thing similar to the timing chain. You might have bent it sideways when you tried to drag the pump out with great force. That might explain what you are feeling.
I want you to put a bit of tape at the top of the timing pulley. Then look at the position of the tape
and at the chain its self. Now rotate the the crankshaft through a complete revolution , than another one. Looks for any waves or unevenness on the chain links. Specifically signs of side ways warping of the chain. Also note the clock position of the bit of tape. I expect that the binding will occur at the same clock position.
if the noise or binding consistanly occurs in the same place, there are mechanical problems.
if the noise occurs erraticly , you are probably hearing chain guide noise.
I know what to expect and advise if normal procedures are followed. You decided to do your own thing and forced things. You caused known and possibly unknown addional damage.
I've gone about as far as I can helping you.
I really don't know what to say any more.
Several of us have tried to help you with this attempt. No one responds any more other than myself. They have given up.
I myself sent you a detailed private messenge last week. You did not move go forward with my advice.
Apparently you wanted input from others because you doubted what I said, yet again.
You have ignored good advice, interpreted instructions and proceedures in your own fashion.
The pump and chain clearly did not want to come out because you hadn't rotated the engine enough to free the chain from the sprocket. Rather than stop and ask for advise from those of us who have been there and done this, you thought you knew better. So you forced the issue. Perhaps with a crowbar.
Please check the chain for signs of sideways warpage before you proceed with the private messenger sent you last night.
In a worse case scenario you might need to replace the timing cover and timing chain .
03-20-2020 | 12:44 PM
