SteveChicagoSC

Most cars run real rich from the factory. My buddies SS Camaro was 10.5 to 1 stock and his supra was mad rich at < 10 to 1.

Time for an air/fuel controller.

Nice job on the intake manifold!!!!

CitrusSpeed

you can put me down for 1 right now

Mr Cranman

iTrader: (1)

Can tell the power curve a lot better...it is like 20HP gain at like 6500RPM and like 20lb/tq also. Only about 8-10 peak horsepower. But, you definitely will feel that kick in. Man, look out for any Max with the VI. Once my part comes in I will be doing a 5-spd dyno...hopefully we'll see a little better gain, but if not I can handle 20 extra HP and 20 extra lb/tq at 6500.

iansw

iTrader: (7)

Firt, 6-8 weeks is my conservative estimate. That's just playing it safe. It sould take 30 days, but unforseen things can always happen. So I'm saying 6-8 weeks. If you don't like it, don't get one. I'm not making jack off this anyway.

Second, How much is a Air/Fuel Controller? Also, by reading the graphs, can you tell me how rich I am? What's normal?

Third, I don't know why one dyno starts higher than the other. I'd like to redo the Dynos, but i want to try and fixe my car first.

IanS

iansw

iTrader: (7)

Firt, 6-8 weeks is my conservative estimate. That's just playing it safe. It sould take 30 days, but unforseen things can always happen. So I'm saying 6-8 weeks. If you don't like it, don't get one. I'm not making jack off this anyway.

Second, How much is a Air/Fuel Controller? Also, by reading the graphs, can you tell me how rich I am? What's normal?

Third, I don't know why one dyno starts higher than the other. I'd like to redo the Dynos, but i want to try and fix my car first.

IanS

breaux124

iTrader: (1)

Exact numbers aside, I want one. Maybe exact numbers are still questionable, but its proven to work by Mardigras and Ian. People are too interested in numbers and don't concentrate on the entire graph. Who cares if it only gives an extra 7-10 peak horsepower, because for about the top 1000rpms in every gear your going to have LOTS more power.

If two people raced, one with and one without the VI, you would see the person with the VI pull at the top end of every gear, so by the time you reached 4th gear the person with the VI should be a decent amount ahead.
I mean people pay hundreds for a full catback and are ok with only a few hp gain, so why not spend the same amount on this VI and get the same peak HP gain PLUS the added bonus of more Top end power.

So who and where do I send my money too? I know a few people are working on getting it imported, I just want to know where to get one.

Dave B

Automatics loose power around 5200-5300 and 5 speeds loose power around 5400-5600 rpms. Here's a really bad pic of my dyno plot. You can see that power isn't falling off until 5500+ rpms. The vertical gray line is 5300rpms. As you can see, power holds on for at least 200rpms further.

[image] http://home.earthlink.net/~thunderlt...ctures0002.jpg [/image]

I really don't think there's anything wrong with your car, it's the dyno. Read my post to "ems" on the other thread. Looking at your plot with the ME/VI closed, your power fals off at 5100-5200 which is about normal. Given the slight difference in the ME/VI manifold vs the stocker with the butterflies closed, it's quite possible the ME/VI might be a little less efficent than the stock piece from idle to 5000rpms.

Please dyno on another machine.


Dave

iansw

iTrader: (7)

Good news. I finally got ahold of my supplier at about 1:30AM last night.

He's looking into getting 10 more for me, and will get back to me tonight, hopefully. Once I have the info, I'll officially start the GD.

Some people have helped me out with Dyno Donations and such. They are already on the list, if they want one....That makes 6 left at a minimum.

IanS

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

The 4th gen ECU was not made to compensate for the extra air above 5000 rpm, so you won't maximize the hp/torque from the manifold.

Lean out the air fuel ratio high 14's. Field's Hyper SFC or A'pexi S-AFC

DARTHSWAN

Wow, I'm really kicking around this mod for purchase. Question, ian did you do the install, or a shop?

K

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Kevng if that were true, then wouldn't the ecu be leaning out the mix by default??

Dave B

How exactly do you know this? The 4th gen VQs do fine with SC up to redline. The SC builds an artifical atmosphere, but the MAF/ECU seem to compensate quite well for this added air. The only thing the SC setup does over stock is add a lot of fuel in the topend to keep detonation down. The ME/VI doesn't cram the kind of air into the heads like the SC so there's no need for more fuel. It's also my understanding that fuel controllers don't do much on these cars. The MAF/ECU should be able to compensate for the extra air. I'd rather stay a little rich then go border line lean. One thing we have to consider is that Ian might have not let his car cool off between runs (I know the EMS operator said they didn't let the car cool down). If the manifold is hot, the incoming air will be hot therefore timing is pulled and fuel is increased in an attempt to reduce cylinder temps and ultimately reduce detonation. It's very possible that Ian's Max was running rich because it was hot. I've noted 5fwhp and 5fwtq losses on the dyno simply because the car wasn't allowed to cool off. You should let the car cool at least 15 minutes between runs. If it's a hot day (above 70), put ice on the manifold.


Dave

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Kenng is saying LEAN out the mix, not richen it up. The 4 gen ecu doesn't really compensate that well at all on SC 4-gens. It's the boost a pump and the Vortech 6:1 FPR that's doing that

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Yes, seems like by default it should be leaner than what his dyno shows. on that one.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

As Jeff said, the Vortech FMU and boost-a-pump controls the extra fuel. The MAF/ECU cannot compensate for the extra air crammed into the engine.

I understand if he was in the 13's:1 range because of heat, but under 12:1? My air fuel curve never dropped 2 points, even from a hot run (2 minutes apart). Ian's a/f curve is perfect for a boosted car, but way too rich for an NA car.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Maybe he as a 02 sensor problem. Not bad enough to flick the error code but bad enough to close loop the mix a little rich.

iansw

iTrader: (7)

Questions:

Could it be because I reset my ECU a few hours before the Dyno?

How bad is it? Some people say "A little rich" after looking at my Dyno, others are saying "Way too rich".

I checked the ECU again by setting it to diagnose mode. No code. According to the ECU, my car is fine.

And yes, each run was about 1-2 minutes apart, and right now i have a fairly Ghetto Intake.

Like I said, I'm going to do the following:

1)Check my plugs this weekend
2) Let the ECU burn in for a few hundred miles
3) Dyno it again at a different shop, to see if it was the shop or my car. After talking more to Elite Motorsports, I think they know what they're doing, but i just want another run somewhere else to be 100% sure.
4)Install a CAI. Jeff92SE hooked me up and I should have it next week.

Nonetheless, I'm very happy with this mod. I just feel it pull through the powerband, and even more when the flaps open, all the way to redline. In a race with ebmorgan, I dusted him like he was driving a Civic.

That has never happened before.

IanS

iansw

iTrader: (7)

We installed it ourselves.

ebmorgan and Jeff92SE did most of the work. airmattdog and I helped when we could.

Total time was about 12 hours, but that was alot of learning curve, BS'ing and hanging out. Somone who has removed their Plenums before could do it in maybe 2 hours. Someone who hasn't but is determined to get it done could do it in 4.

Someone who is really experienced coudl even do it in 1 hour, with help.

I am working on a write-up. Just need to get some info on bolt and hose sizes from ebmorgan, since he bought the cover bolts and hoses for me while I was at work.

IanS

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

That was mean! After all he was the one working the hardest to install your chit! hehe. I'll let you know when the cai arrives.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

How rich are you? Let's just say rich enough to be running safely for my car.

I'm more on the side of the ECU being stuck on stupid.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

I'm convinced it works, but just not how well. Maybe automatic dynos have a different shape than 5spd dynos, but to me, your dyno looks like it drops off wayyy to early. Maybe its faulty dyno equipment though.

Toolrocks

iTrader: (1)

I seriously want one, how would I go about getting into one of those 6 remaining spots IanS? Also, does anyone know the hp and torque figures for the cars in the middle east, or wherever else this intake is in use - I'm curious if the stock intake plumbing would perform better than a pop or cai? I would love to have one of these.

Generic

How rich are you? Very. To give you an idea, my last dyno I ran 11.8:1, and 12.4:1, and thats still to rich, I wanna be around 12.5:1, 13:1 and this is on my supercharged car.

Stoich is 14.7:1 On your car, I'd say around 13, 13.5:1 NA should be fine. You'd be surprised how much power is locked up in there when you run that rich.

FYI, for comparison, here is my GTP Dyno:
http://grandprix.maximumspeed.com/im...-02dyno2nd.jpg

And the A/F
http://grandprix.maximumspeed.com/im...02af-ratio.jpg

You are showing good gains under the ENTIRE curve, which is what really matters. I'm sure out NA guys would love to have something like this.

Murdock

iansw

iTrader: (7)

Please explain further.

Could it be because I had just reset my ECU?

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Generic explained it nicely. If you really want to maximize the power, get either of the air/fuel controllers I mentioned and lean out the air fuel ratio to be in the 14's since you're NA.

Your current < 12:1 ratio is rich enough for a force fed car, so that means you're running WAY too rich for an NA car.

Dave B

I understand that the SC cars run rich, hence my explanation of the SC fuel delivery setup. Ian might be running a bit rich, but I don't think there is going to be a ton of power found going a little leaner like you'd see on a forced induced car.

Ian, did you see black smoke pouring out of your tail pipe at WOT on the dyno or did they dump the exhaust into a hose? If so, have someone watch you make a run down the street a WOT. If they notice black smoke coming out of the exhaust in the upper revs before a shift, then that means you're running a bit rich. Every single SC Max I've seen dyno seems to dump smoke (ie fuel) once the rpms get to 5000. NA Maximas make absolutely no smoke at WOT. F-Bodies and Stangs are notorious for running rich and dumping smoke in the upper rpms. My 94 Z28 did the same thing after 5000rpms or right on initial WOT. I don't ever hear about those guys saying they need to "tune out" the fuel from the stock program.

All and all, I don't know what the big concern is here. Every single A/F ratio I've seen for a 4th gen seems to be in this 11:1-11.5:1 range as seen in Ian's dynos. Haven't a few guys proven there's absolutely no gains from a AF computer on NA 4th gen? Why would the ME/VI 4th gen be any different? He might be running slightly richer at 6200rpms vs 5600rpms, but we're talking about a difference of maybe .3 or something (11:3 vs 11.6:1).


Dave

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Dave. Regardless of what Ian's car is doing/not doing, rich/lean theory is still the same. Most car makers will preprogram a WOT ignition/fuel map in open loop. Sorta like a warm up program when you run the car until the temp goes up. Now since the factory is gonna error on the safe side, they map the fuel rich to cool the engine and to fight detonation at wot. A bunch of blown motors is not in their interest. Now the other thing is engines make more hp at leaner mixes vs rich mixes(within reason) But this also makes more heat and makes the engine more detonation prone. So it's a tricky balance. Kev is suggesting that if you lean out the wot preprogrammed richness, Ian should pick up maybe 5-8 hp or so.

I think Ian should swap 02 sensors w/ EB and maybe redyno. But it's not like Ian has a buttload of cash to keep running his car on dynos all day. Maybe hook up an exhaust temp sensor or maybe a good wideband a/f meter.

Keven97SE

If I'm interpreting your A/F plot correctly, then there appears to be very little gain to leaning out the mixture, at least on your car. The A/F plot you show shows a negligible difference in HP between A/F ratios of 12.5 and 11.5. I think the lessons from that plot translate quite well to a N/A Maxima, implying that there are negligible gains from leaning out the mixture.

One more point: I had the APEXi AFC on my n/a 4th gen for well over a year. It was set up correctly to prevent the stock ECU from overriding my corrections, and no matter what adjustments I made, I never realized any significant gains. Just didn't do much of anything.

Keven97SE

I do think there's any need to tune the 4th gen to compensate for the VI manifold. What would drive the need to retune would be a large increase in the volumetric airflow rate into the engine, which could be beyond the measurement range of the MAF sensor or beyond the fuel maps of the stock ECU. For the VI manifold, however, since there's "only" a 10 HP or so peak HP gain, or roughly 5%, that implies there's also only a 5% increase in airflow (HP curve approximately follows the airflow curve). When I had the APEXi AFC, I registered airflow numbers (at the MAF) of no greater than 60% roughly, which means the MAF is still capable of correctly measuring a significant increase in airflow, which 5% most certainly is not.

In summary, our fuel maps are solely dictated by airflow. If air flow increases, the ECU adjusts the fuel flow by a certain amount. There is plenty of margin in the stock MAF and ECU for increased airflow. The VI manifold on a N/A motor does not add enough ariflow to exceed the compensation ability of the stock MAF/ECU.

If Ian's car is running rich, I'd venture to say that either his car is no different than all other 4th gens, or his car simply is running rich for some other issue (bad O2, fuel injector/s, etc). It does not indicate that the car "cannot handle" the VI manifold.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

So when will that margin run out? Never when NA?

iansw

iTrader: (7)

The Nissan Maxima 3.0GV (Middle East VQ30DE) is 220hp stock. Not sure about Torque.

Yes, it does one heck of alot more than a CAI or Pop, but does NOT replace a CAI or Pop. Look at the picture in my sig. It does more than a Y-Pipe even.

It replaces your Plenums <"Pipes">.

IanS

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

I admittedly do not know as much as you guys about A/F ratios. What I do know is this, my car has a bad O2 sensor, and has had a bad one since I bought it a year and a half ago. At WOT I don't blow black smoke. Bad O2 sensor makes me run in open loop mode which is full rich correct? It hasn't affected my dynos any, I'm dynoing as high or higher than other VQs with the same mods.

breaux124

iTrader: (1)

But how is your gas milage? I had a bad O2 sensor for about three weeks and I noticed a drastic reduction in gas milage. Once I replace it, everything went back to normal.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

I don't know about you guys, but 25+hp @ the wheels @6000rpms definately sounds worth it to me. Someone stated a 5% airflow increase overall, but what about @ 6000rpms? Compared to an american VQ plenum design? I'm sure the MEVI plenums flow more than 5% over the American VQ @ 6000 rpms. But peak flow VS. peak flow is only 5% more, but @ 6000rpms, lets say the American VI is flowing 40% of the MAF peak flow rate @ 5200rpms(we'll call that peak flow for now) But @ 6000 is flowing 20%, while the MEVI is doing 45%@5200 and 43% @ 6000, so overall more than just 5% at that given rpms(6000). Holds higher flow for longer. Get my point? Anyways, I want one and think it's worth it.

xHypex

iTrader: (1)

At 5200rpm the hp increase is basically 0. At 5500 the increase is 4.6%, 6000rpm is 11.1%, 6200rpm is 13.12%.
This is also specifically on Ians car, which seemed to dyno relatively low. I would love to see the results of the VI on a 5spd. on a dyno that pulls numbers close to what we are all used to seeing for modified Maxims (170+).
Here's some extra stats for those of you who missed it earlier.
http://www.vanillaice.com/webmasters/hype/iansw/ian.htm
-hype

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

I was just throwing in random numbers for the he// of it, but thanks for the corrections. Yeah, I bet it be nice to see it on a 5spd.

Keven97SE

Even if the MEVI provides 20% more flow at 6500 rpm, the maximum flow rate for the MEVI is only 5% more than the US manifold based on Ian's dyno, thus the MAF will only need to be able to read an additional 5% airflow. Based on the flow #s I saw on my S-AFC, this is still well within the measurement limits of the MAF, and is likely within the limits of the stock fuel system as well (usually MAF and fuel systems match up in terms of these limits).

iansw

iTrader: (7)

When I Dyno again, should I do it in 2nd gear to get a smoother line???

Or would that cause it's own set of problems with the numbers?

Also, I think I figured out why my numbers were low. I have a fairly Ghetto Intake right now, and the way it fits in there makes the flex part of the pipes bend. I think it was restricted airflow, which would cause the richness in my fuel and the low Dyno as well, I believe.

(correct me if I'm wrong)

Next week, I'll have a CAI in. That will solve that problem.

Cars ECU is showing a code of 0505 - All systems normal.

So this is all I can think of.

Anyway, I am Dynoing again, but I'm not a millionaire, so any help for a better Dyno (at a different shop) would be appreciated.

Speedtrip, do you have a 5-spd?

In other news, I spoke with my contact last night. He is checking out availability for 10-20 Manifolds. He will be getting back to me when he knows. He had no ETA. (sorry!)

IanS

speedtrip

Yes I do. I did my baseline yesterday with the OE manifold. 175.5hp and 186.4tq with the characteristic downturn in the hp curve @5400 rpm. Not bad for 101,000 miles. My Max's dyno #'s are in line with other .org members who have tested there with similiar mods.

xHypex

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like speedtrip is the ticket for a reliable dyno Ian if you dyno in anything but 3rd you won't get a 1:1 gear ratio and will thus show more hp than you have (I believe) because of the gear multiplication. When will speedtrip be getting his VI in the mail anyway?
-hype