APOLOGY to BILL99GXE and all others who read my wrong info!
11-02-2002, 03:42 PM
#1
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
APOLOGY to BILL99GXE and all others who read my wrong info!
My public apology to Bill99GXE who had the correct information...
What is this all about you ask?
Well I have researched motor oils quite a bit in the last few years:
And.. according to Valvolines website and according to their "ask synpower" email Public Relations people, Valvoline is a Group IV base oil with some esters (group V)......
In the FAQ on their website, they answer "Yes" when posed with the question is it a PAO and/or ester based full syn oil.
And I emailed them 2 or 3 times in the last year and a half, and they always said explicitly "yes we are a PAO syn oil"!
But the MSDS for SynPower says its a "hydroisomerized paraffinic" oil
The MSDS doesnt lie, its way too regulated for that.
I will NEVER buy another Valvoline product again!
And I will make sure PPL will hear of this, I am a Moderator on another board and members have depended on me for accurate information and dependable recommendations.
They made me a liar, this is not something I will forgive.
I even organized meets for my club lately and had raffles with Valvoline products as prizes.
The grand Prize of our last 2 meets, was a case of SynPower for the one who drove furthest (1100 miles round trip last meet)
Which I bought out of my own pocket, as i did all other raffles!
At least one (and I suspect more) NICO members have bought their oil based, at least in part (if not wholly), on my recomendations...
I am an ACS certified and degreed Chemist, but I am defenseless against outright lying.
Or <maybe> they changed their formulation and "forgot" to tell their PR people and "forgot" to tell their webmaster.
Summary: Valvoline SynPower is a group III oil..
Fred...
What is this all about you ask?
Well I have researched motor oils quite a bit in the last few years:
And.. according to Valvolines website and according to their "ask synpower" email Public Relations people, Valvoline is a Group IV base oil with some esters (group V)......
In the FAQ on their website, they answer "Yes" when posed with the question is it a PAO and/or ester based full syn oil.
And I emailed them 2 or 3 times in the last year and a half, and they always said explicitly "yes we are a PAO syn oil"!
But the MSDS for SynPower says its a "hydroisomerized paraffinic" oil
The MSDS doesnt lie, its way too regulated for that.
I will NEVER buy another Valvoline product again!
And I will make sure PPL will hear of this, I am a Moderator on another board and members have depended on me for accurate information and dependable recommendations.
They made me a liar, this is not something I will forgive.
I even organized meets for my club lately and had raffles with Valvoline products as prizes.
The grand Prize of our last 2 meets, was a case of SynPower for the one who drove furthest (1100 miles round trip last meet)
Which I bought out of my own pocket, as i did all other raffles!
At least one (and I suspect more) NICO members have bought their oil based, at least in part (if not wholly), on my recomendations...
I am an ACS certified and degreed Chemist, but I am defenseless against outright lying.
Or <maybe> they changed their formulation and "forgot" to tell their PR people and "forgot" to tell their webmaster.
Summary: Valvoline SynPower is a group III oil..
Fred...
11-02-2002, 03:59 PM
#3
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Damn man that sucks!
I hate it when I'm lied to also, and it's happened to me before by big companies as well, so I know how you feel.
But if it makes you feel any better, 95% of what you just said was completely GREEK to me!
I yield to bill on any oil related questions I get. I too am a moderator...err, admin actually, on another site.
I hate it when I'm lied to also, and it's happened to me before by big companies as well, so I know how you feel.
But if it makes you feel any better, 95% of what you just said was completely GREEK to me!
I yield to bill on any oil related questions I get. I too am a moderator...err, admin actually, on another site.
11-02-2002, 04:38 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
I just emailed them.
I pasted a quote out of the MSDS: "hydroisomerized Paraffinic" into it.
And then quoted their own email, saying they are a polyalphaolefin oil.
Then I asked (in more polite words) "so who is lying the MSDS or you"?
I dont really think they will answer me...
Ashland/Valvoline used to be my favorite petrochemical company until this afternoon.....
Fred.....
PS: For those not so much into oils:
group III: hydroisomerized base stock (refined)
group IV: poly alpha olefins (synthethisized out of ethylene)
I pasted a quote out of the MSDS: "hydroisomerized Paraffinic" into it.
And then quoted their own email, saying they are a polyalphaolefin oil.
Then I asked (in more polite words) "so who is lying the MSDS or you"?
I dont really think they will answer me...
Ashland/Valvoline used to be my favorite petrochemical company until this afternoon.....
Fred.....
PS: For those not so much into oils:
group III: hydroisomerized base stock (refined)
group IV: poly alpha olefins (synthethisized out of ethylene)
11-02-2002, 04:56 PM
#5
Dyno plot says I have the most area under the Administrator curve
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,060
Originally posted by palmerwmd
Fred.....
PS: For those not so much into oils:
group III: hydroisomerized base stock (refined)
group IV: poly alpha olefins (synthethisized out of ethylene)
Fred.....
PS: For those not so much into oils:
group III: hydroisomerized base stock (refined)
group IV: poly alpha olefins (synthethisized out of ethylene)
11-02-2002, 05:29 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
I'll explain..
group III oils = good stuff
group IV oils = better stuff, I am willing to pay the $$ for to get.
groupIII: more expensive and better than group I+II stocks
groupIV: more expesivve to produce than group III, which has been the justification for the hi prices of synthetic oil.
many companies, Castrol, Pennsoil, and sadly., now Valvoline are marketing group III oils as synthetics.
And asking the public to pay for them as synthetics.
A group III oil is not a proper synthetic, but since Castrol successfully defended MOBIL suit against it for calling it's Syntec synthetic when its only highly refined quality GroupIII. other cpompanies have jumpeed on teh band wagon.
Actually group III is a very very good base stock, better than many other oils, can meet some of teh same stringent specs the Group IV and V synthetics can meet(GM4718M, ACEA A3 etc).
But it's not the equal of group IV and V in cold flow and long drain stability.
Maybe not the equal in antifoaming w/o need for antifoaming additives either, I am not sure on that one
So when I was paying for a group IV/V full synthetic oil, I only got a group III.
So in summary they told me/us they were using Group IV oil base (PAO), but when I saw the MSDS sheet for the oil, it said "hydroisomerized paraffinic oils" which was a dead give away for not being a group IV.
Hope it all makes sense now.
Fred...
group III oils = good stuff
group IV oils = better stuff, I am willing to pay the $$ for to get.
groupIII: more expensive and better than group I+II stocks
groupIV: more expesivve to produce than group III, which has been the justification for the hi prices of synthetic oil.
many companies, Castrol, Pennsoil, and sadly.
, now Valvoline are marketing group III oils as synthetics.And asking the public to pay for them as synthetics.
A group III oil is not a proper synthetic, but since Castrol successfully defended MOBIL suit against it for calling it's Syntec synthetic when its only highly refined quality GroupIII. other cpompanies have jumpeed on teh band wagon.
Actually group III is a very very good base stock, better than many other oils, can meet some of teh same stringent specs the Group IV and V synthetics can meet(GM4718M, ACEA A3 etc).
But it's not the equal of group IV and V in cold flow and long drain stability.
Maybe not the equal in antifoaming w/o need for antifoaming additives either, I am not sure on that one
So when I was paying for a group IV/V full synthetic oil, I only got a group III.
So in summary they told me/us they were using Group IV oil base (PAO), but when I saw the MSDS sheet for the oil, it said "hydroisomerized paraffinic oils" which was a dead give away for not being a group IV.
Hope it all makes sense now.
Fred...
11-02-2002, 06:32 PM
#7
Re: APOLOGY to BILL99GXE and all others who read my wrong info!
Originally posted by palmerwmd
My public apology to Bill99GXE who had the correct information and I corrected him with incorrect information...
What is this all about you ask?
Well I have researched motor oils quite a bit in the last few years:
And.. according to Valvolines website and according to their "ask synpower" email Public Relations people, Valvoline is a Group IV base oil with some esters (group V)......
In the FAQ on their website, they answer "Yes" when posed with the question is it a PAO and/or ester based full syn oil.
And I emailed them 2 or 3 times in the last year and a half, and they always said explicitly "yes we are a PAO syn oil"!
But the MSDS for SynPower says its a "hydroisomerized paraffinic" oil
The MSDS doesnt lie, its way too regulated for that.
I will NEVER buy another Valvoline product again!
And I will make sure PPL will hear of this, I am a Moderator on another board and members have depended on me for accurate information and dependable recommendations.
They made me a liar, this is not something I will forgive.
I even organized meets for my club lately and had raffles with Valvoline products as prizes.
The grand Prize of our last 2 meets, was a case of SynPower for the one who drove furthest (1100 miles round trip last meet)
Which I bought out of my own pocket, as i did all other raffles!
At least one (and I suspect more) NICO members have bought their oil based, at least in part (if not wholly), on my recomendations...
I am an ACS certified and degreed Chemist, but I am defenseless against outright lying.
Or <maybe> they changed their formulation and "forgot" to tell their PR people and "forgot" to tell their webmaster.
Summary: Valvoline SynPower is a group III oil..
Fred...
My public apology to Bill99GXE who had the correct information and I corrected him with incorrect information...
What is this all about you ask?
Well I have researched motor oils quite a bit in the last few years:
And.. according to Valvolines website and according to their "ask synpower" email Public Relations people, Valvoline is a Group IV base oil with some esters (group V)......
In the FAQ on their website, they answer "Yes" when posed with the question is it a PAO and/or ester based full syn oil.
And I emailed them 2 or 3 times in the last year and a half, and they always said explicitly "yes we are a PAO syn oil"!
But the MSDS for SynPower says its a "hydroisomerized paraffinic" oil
The MSDS doesnt lie, its way too regulated for that.
I will NEVER buy another Valvoline product again!
And I will make sure PPL will hear of this, I am a Moderator on another board and members have depended on me for accurate information and dependable recommendations.
They made me a liar, this is not something I will forgive.
I even organized meets for my club lately and had raffles with Valvoline products as prizes.
The grand Prize of our last 2 meets, was a case of SynPower for the one who drove furthest (1100 miles round trip last meet)
Which I bought out of my own pocket, as i did all other raffles!
At least one (and I suspect more) NICO members have bought their oil based, at least in part (if not wholly), on my recomendations...
I am an ACS certified and degreed Chemist, but I am defenseless against outright lying.
Or <maybe> they changed their formulation and "forgot" to tell their PR people and "forgot" to tell their webmaster.
Summary: Valvoline SynPower is a group III oil..
Fred...
Hmmmm......interesting reading, and I'm a little surprised as I've been informed by other sources that know a lot more about this stuff than myself that they were convinced it was a Group IV as well.
But as soon as hydroisomerized paraffinic is uttered, you're talking Castrol Syntec, Re-formulated Amsoil XL-7500, Pennzoil Synthetic, etc. Class III type synthetic oils, which I don't recommend.
SynPower is still a good oil empirically (better than Castrol Syntec IMO) compared to other major off the shelf synthetics (Mobil 1 being an exception), but that would help explain its quicker TBN and additive depletion in the analysis results on some cars versus some other synthetics used by members here such as Mobil 1.
Sorry you got taken Fred, that's never a pleasant experience.
11-02-2002, 06:43 PM
#8
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Bill
Here is the MSDS that gave it away:
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""
The Valvoline Company Date Prepared: 01/14/02
MSDS No: 505.0239085-005.005I
SYNPOWER 10W30 BULK
__________________________________________________ ________________________
1. CHEMICAL PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION
Material Identity
Product Name: SYNPOWER 10W30 BULK
General or Generic ID: SYNTHETIC LUBRICATING OIL
Company Telephone Numbers
The Valvoline Company Emergency: 1-800-274-5263
P.O. Box 14000
Lexington, KY 40512 Information: 1-859-357-7206
__________________________________________________ ________________________
2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Ingredient(s) CAS Number % (by weight)
-------------------------------------------- ------------- -------------
HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE (PE 64742-54-7 53.0- 63.0
ZINC COMPOUNDS 0.8- 1.6
________________________________
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""
So,
They didn't list the base oil for my favorite, the 5w-40 in the MSDS, but they did for the 20w-50 and the 10w-30.
I emailed them, but the only way SynPower is not Group III but Group IV ,is if the MSDS is wrong, and they never are.
Fred...
Here is the MSDS that gave it away:
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""
The Valvoline Company Date Prepared: 01/14/02
MSDS No: 505.0239085-005.005I
SYNPOWER 10W30 BULK
__________________________________________________ ________________________
1. CHEMICAL PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION
Material Identity
Product Name: SYNPOWER 10W30 BULK
General or Generic ID: SYNTHETIC LUBRICATING OIL
Company Telephone Numbers
The Valvoline Company Emergency: 1-800-274-5263
P.O. Box 14000
Lexington, KY 40512 Information: 1-859-357-7206
__________________________________________________ ________________________
2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Ingredient(s) CAS Number % (by weight)
-------------------------------------------- ------------- -------------
HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE (PE 64742-54-7 53.0- 63.0
ZINC COMPOUNDS 0.8- 1.6
________________________________
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """"""""""""""
So,
They didn't list the base oil for my favorite, the 5w-40 in the MSDS, but they did for the 20w-50 and the 10w-30.
I emailed them, but the only way SynPower is not Group III but Group IV ,is if the MSDS is wrong, and they never are.
Fred...
11-02-2002, 06:47 PM
#9
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
I am still kinda in disbelief,
It was always that SynPower was the <other> PAO off-the-shelf oil...
An alternative to MOBIL1.
I am still hoping against hope, that this is all some carzy mix-up in the MSDS's, except I know the likelyhood of that is nil.
Fred...
It was always that SynPower was the <other> PAO off-the-shelf oil...
An alternative to MOBIL1.
I am still hoping against hope, that this is all some carzy mix-up in the MSDS's, except I know the likelyhood of that is nil.
Fred...
11-02-2002, 08:29 PM
#11
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
A group III base oil it is not as extended drain capable as a full PAO syn.
A group III should hold up better than a dino oil, but not as long as a PAO or ester base oil formulation.
I guess you can extend it a little if you really want to just not as long as a PAO.
(I am not a huge believer in extended intervals anyway,, Even when running a real strong oil, i wont extend my intervals at least not by a lot.)
Fred...
A group III should hold up better than a dino oil, but not as long as a PAO or ester base oil formulation.
I guess you can extend it a little if you really want to just not as long as a PAO.
(I am not a huge believer in extended intervals anyway,, Even when running a real strong oil, i wont extend my intervals at least not by a lot.)
Fred...
11-02-2002, 09:54 PM
#13
No....
Originally posted by serin
so is mobile 1 the only option for those who want a 'real' synthetic?
so is mobile 1 the only option for those who want a 'real' synthetic?
I think that's BS on Castrols' part and I hope they have SERIOUS backlash. I have recommended them based on Bills' and others information and I hate to give advice to people only later to learn it wasn't 100% accurate.
However, I've never sold the idea of super extended drain intervals due to the HARSH conditions out here, therefore I don't believe there would be any "noticeable" damage.I will spread the word though.
11-03-2002, 07:32 AM
#14
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 217
Castrol Syntec was the first company to do this.
In 92 I think they switched to a group III base stock and called it a syn.
Years back on another board we had a discussion about this, and I predicted other companies would sadly follow suit, cuz its too tmepting to use a cheaper product adn sell it same price as before.
Especially since Castrol wont MOBIL's suit.
Pennzoil had a great PAO syn and switched a couple of yeras back to group III.
And now SynPower too...
Fred....
In 92 I think they switched to a group III base stock and called it a syn.
Years back on another board we had a discussion about this, and I predicted other companies would sadly follow suit, cuz its too tmepting to use a cheaper product adn sell it same price as before.
Especially since Castrol wont MOBIL's suit.
Pennzoil had a great PAO syn and switched a couple of yeras back to group III.
And now SynPower too...
Fred....
11-03-2002, 09:26 AM
#15
sorry guys, but i cannot find amsoil oil in any of my local autoparts stores. albeit, i live in the ghetto so there isn't too high of a demand for boutique motor oils. are there places online that i could order the stuff for a good price? even the mobile 1 that's sold here is usually spotty, only 2 or 3 bottles on the shelf for a given weight, so it's difficult to get enough for an oil change.
btw, i switched to synthetic a while back and have recently been using castrol syntec but will now be switching to mobile 1 or amsoil. thanks for the research and diligence guys. these are things i never would have discovered on my own.
are there places online that i could order the stuff for a good price? even the mobile 1 that's sold here is usually spotty, only 2 or 3 bottles on the shelf for a given weight, so it's difficult to get enough for an oil change. btw, i switched to synthetic a while back and have recently been using castrol syntec but will now be switching to mobile 1 or amsoil. thanks for the research and diligence guys. these are things i never would have discovered on my own.
11-03-2002, 10:23 AM
#16
Originally posted by serin
sorry guys, but i cannot find amsoil oil in any of my local autoparts stores. albeit, i live in the ghetto so there isn't too high of a demand for boutique motor oils. are there places online that i could order the stuff for a good price? even the mobile 1 that's sold here is usually spotty, only 2 or 3 bottles on the shelf for a given weight, so it's difficult to get enough for an oil change.
btw, i switched to synthetic a while back and have recently been using castrol syntec but will now be switching to mobile 1 or amsoil. thanks for the research and diligence guys. these are things i never would have discovered on my own.
sorry guys, but i cannot find amsoil oil in any of my local autoparts stores. albeit, i live in the ghetto so there isn't too high of a demand for boutique motor oils.
are there places online that i could order the stuff for a good price? even the mobile 1 that's sold here is usually spotty, only 2 or 3 bottles on the shelf for a given weight, so it's difficult to get enough for an oil change. btw, i switched to synthetic a while back and have recently been using castrol syntec but will now be switching to mobile 1 or amsoil. thanks for the research and diligence guys. these are things i never would have discovered on my own.
11-03-2002, 11:12 AM
#17
Originally posted by serin
sorry guys, but i cannot find amsoil oil in any of my local autoparts stores. albeit, i live in the ghetto so there isn't too high of a demand for boutique motor oils. are there places online that i could order the stuff for a good price? even the mobile 1 that's sold here is usually spotty, only 2 or 3 bottles on the shelf for a given weight, so it's difficult to get enough for an oil change.
btw, i switched to synthetic a while back and have recently been using castrol syntec but will now be switching to mobile 1 or amsoil. thanks for the research and diligence guys. these are things i never would have discovered on my own.
sorry guys, but i cannot find amsoil oil in any of my local autoparts stores. albeit, i live in the ghetto so there isn't too high of a demand for boutique motor oils.
are there places online that i could order the stuff for a good price? even the mobile 1 that's sold here is usually spotty, only 2 or 3 bottles on the shelf for a given weight, so it's difficult to get enough for an oil change. btw, i switched to synthetic a while back and have recently been using castrol syntec but will now be switching to mobile 1 or amsoil. thanks for the research and diligence guys. these are things i never would have discovered on my own.
http://intershop.amsoil.com/cgi-bin/...7/Catalog/1108
However, it's cheaper to pay the $10 to become a preferred buyer for 6mo. and just buy a years worth at a time at "wholesale" pricing.
Otherwise, you just order from iwannabmw without the "preferred buyer" hassle.
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