changed wheels..slow accel.
06-23-2004, 05:39 AM
#1
changed wheels..slow accel.
i recently swapped my stock 16" on my 2000 for some 17x8. i noticed the acceleration is much slower. it feels like a lost a motherload of power. is this natural or is something wrong here?
06-23-2004, 05:51 AM
#3
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by smoon629
i recently swapped my stock 16" on my 2000 for some 17x8. i noticed the acceleration is much slower. it feels like a lost a motherload of power. is this natural or is something wrong here?
06-23-2004, 05:55 AM
#4
Originally Posted by smoon629
i recently swapped my stock 16" on my 2000 for some 17x8. i noticed the acceleration is much slower. it feels like a lost a motherload of power. is this natural or is something wrong here?
06-23-2004, 05:57 AM
#5
nothing like that. it literally just feels like i've got an obese bear in my trunk. the only thing i've got in my trunk is my spare and a box full of sprays. it didnt do this with my stock wheels/tires. i've got 235's on my 17x8. would upgrading from stock 16's to these make THAT much of a difference???
06-23-2004, 06:02 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 106
The increased wheel diameter will also cost you some HP from centrifical forces. I saw this discussed on Speedvision last night with Sean Hyland. They had an Integra R with a BBK and larger wheels and it cost them like 12hp after the upgrades. Track times were actually slightly better due to increased grip, and the ability to go deeper into the corners before braking however. The wheels used were actually lighter than stock, but larger in diameter.
06-23-2004, 06:19 AM
#8
yep, you don't get good bling like that for nothing 
Welcome to the wonderful world of extra unsprung weight... it dampens your acceleration and braking. And it influences suspension too, although I'm not sure how (does it make the springs feel "softer" when you add more weight, since the springs have to oscillate more mass?)
Welcome to the wonderful world of extra unsprung weight... it dampens your acceleration and braking. And it influences suspension too, although I'm not sure how (does it make the springs feel "softer" when you add more weight, since the springs have to oscillate more mass?)
06-23-2004, 07:13 AM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 349
You have added a bigger wheel which means your engine needs to spin a larger diameter wheel to move the car so in effect the final drive ratio has been reduced......you probably loss some low end but gained on the top end.
On the racing world you would compensate for the bigger wheel by installing a higher gear ratio....but no such luck for us with FWD
On the racing world you would compensate for the bigger wheel by installing a higher gear ratio....but no such luck for us with FWD
06-23-2004, 01:57 PM
#10
Originally Posted by smoon629
nothing like that. it literally just feels like i've got an obese bear in my trunk. the only thing i've got in my trunk is my spare and a box full of sprays. it didnt do this with my stock wheels/tires. i've got 235's on my 17x8. would upgrading from stock 16's to these make THAT much of a difference???
In a word: YES!!!!
I always get a kick out of people who are trying to make their cars go fast and then they put 20" wheels or something on them.
By going from your stock sixteens (what's the width maybe 6") to the 17x8's you are doing two things:
1. Adding to the unsprung weight
2. Adding rotational mass...in mass
Oh...third thing, because you are now riding on much wider tires your contact patch to the road is greater too. This adds friction, and the more of it the more drag on the car. There's a reason why drag cars have such little itty-bitty skinny front tires. It cuts down on friction and wind resistance.
By adding those big tires, you probably just sucked out 15+ hp out of your car.
And for the naysayers who don't believe that, go to the dyno. I will also give people a piece of advice on brakes. Increasing the size of your brakes and rotors can sap power too. Even if the larger ones are lighter. The larger the diameter the greater the rotational force needed to make them roll, hence the less power that actually hits the pavement.
In a recent test of an Acura RSX-S on Speed channel, they "upgraded" the brakes with larger diameter rotors and pads, they weighed a tiny bit less though.
They lost 7 hp on the dyno after that. They tested it 9 times because they couldn't believe it. Then engineer said it was the larger diameter rotors and brakes.
I can't help but laugh at people who upsize their wheels more than "plus one" and .5 inches wider. And those knuckle-heads that put 22" wheels and such on their SUV's, wow, I can't imagine how much damage they are doing to SO MANY parts of the SUV. I would NEVER buy a used vehicle that has huge wheels on it.
Sadly, you either have to live with the performance decrease or sell the wheels and get a set of lightweight 17" that are skinner. This should offset the rotational force and friction loss and make your car perform like it used too.
06-23-2004, 04:54 PM
#13
It always amazes me....
haven't you guys been to the track before?
Ever notice at the track how alot of people with "bling" rims will switch their fronts back to either stock or even small steelies on the front in order to gain accelleration. (on front wheel drive cars)
The only way you can be faster with larger rims is if the larger rims are something like 50% the weight of the smaller ones. It's all about rotational weight...i.e. a larger rims puts more of the weight on the outside of the rotational mass. Therefore in almost all cases, the smaller rim will be faster, assuming the smaller rim is not made of lead and the larger one isn't superlight......
just face it, upsizing rims have two major advantages:
1. better looking (well, sometimes...)
2. better handling (due to lower tire profile)
and three major disadvantages:
1. slower accelleration
2. more braking required to stop (due to rotational inertial)
3. less comfortable ride (in most cases, due to thinner tire sidewall)...
so make up your mind what your priority is...speed, handling, ride, 1/4 mile, etc....
haven't you guys been to the track before?
Ever notice at the track how alot of people with "bling" rims will switch their fronts back to either stock or even small steelies on the front in order to gain accelleration. (on front wheel drive cars)
The only way you can be faster with larger rims is if the larger rims are something like 50% the weight of the smaller ones. It's all about rotational weight...i.e. a larger rims puts more of the weight on the outside of the rotational mass. Therefore in almost all cases, the smaller rim will be faster, assuming the smaller rim is not made of lead and the larger one isn't superlight......
just face it, upsizing rims have two major advantages:
1. better looking (well, sometimes...)
2. better handling (due to lower tire profile)
and three major disadvantages:
1. slower accelleration
2. more braking required to stop (due to rotational inertial)
3. less comfortable ride (in most cases, due to thinner tire sidewall)...
so make up your mind what your priority is...speed, handling, ride, 1/4 mile, etc....
06-23-2004, 05:34 PM
#15
It's not the ACTUAL weight of the rim that matters - it's the fact that larger rims puts more weight towards the OUTSIDE of the rotational mass
rotational mass = total weight of rims AND tires combined...(also includes brake rotors, for that matter)...
the farther out the rotational mass is on the wheel/tire "assembly", the more force it takes to turn it......
so even though your 17's are lighter overall, the center of rotational mass on them is farther from the center of the rim, resulting in more force needed to turn them (and stop them).
that's just the way it is....
why do you guys think that racecars (Indycars, nascar, dragsters, etc...) use relatively small rims (albeit superlight ones) with relatively high tire profile.....it's for accelleration and braking efficiency.
rotational mass = total weight of rims AND tires combined...(also includes brake rotors, for that matter)...
the farther out the rotational mass is on the wheel/tire "assembly", the more force it takes to turn it......
so even though your 17's are lighter overall, the center of rotational mass on them is farther from the center of the rim, resulting in more force needed to turn them (and stop them).
that's just the way it is....
why do you guys think that racecars (Indycars, nascar, dragsters, etc...) use relatively small rims (albeit superlight ones) with relatively high tire profile.....it's for accelleration and braking efficiency.
06-23-2004, 06:14 PM
#16
Originally Posted by slammed95
Some people will never understand. 
**You must be one of those people you are talking about!**
I guess car companies are stupid for offering vehicles with 19" wheels and 14.4" rotors, stock!
**Ahh because it looks good to many people. And if the car is powerful enough, it will support those size tires. And obviously, since brakes save lives, it's good to have good brakes. Those cars with 19" wheels would be all that much faster with 17's. Since you don't seem to understand, it's a balance for the manufacturer. They can't put 16x6's on a 400 hp rear wheel drive car, the tires would spin WAY too easy, and handling would be a handful with that much power on those small tires. But they wouldn't want to put 20x8's on either, because it not only would be overkill, but it would impede the straight ahead performance and braking ability of the car. Notice how much slower the Chrsyler Crossfire is with it's 19 inch wheels/tires than the identical MB SLK 320 with the smaller tires??**
Some of you need to get some actual experience and understand what you're talking about. True, heavy parts will slow you down, but that's why you add more power!
**You must be one of those people you are talking about!**
I guess car companies are stupid for offering vehicles with 19" wheels and 14.4" rotors, stock!
**Ahh because it looks good to many people. And if the car is powerful enough, it will support those size tires. And obviously, since brakes save lives, it's good to have good brakes. Those cars with 19" wheels would be all that much faster with 17's. Since you don't seem to understand, it's a balance for the manufacturer. They can't put 16x6's on a 400 hp rear wheel drive car, the tires would spin WAY too easy, and handling would be a handful with that much power on those small tires. But they wouldn't want to put 20x8's on either, because it not only would be overkill, but it would impede the straight ahead performance and braking ability of the car. Notice how much slower the Chrsyler Crossfire is with it's 19 inch wheels/tires than the identical MB SLK 320 with the smaller tires??**
Some of you need to get some actual experience and understand what you're talking about. True, heavy parts will slow you down, but that's why you add more power!
So what exactly are you saying? That we KNOW what we are talking about, or is it YOU that needs some actual experience and you really DO know that WE are right, but you seem to think we are wrong. Kid, there's absolutely NO doubt about it...larger wheels and tires SLOW the car. If acceleration is of importance to anyone with a car, you surely don't want to get big wheels/tires. Now if handling is your primary concern and you could care less about acceleration and braking, go ahead, get the bigger wheels and bigger rubber. Manufacturers will generally lean towards the conservative side. Therefore, upsizing one size will generally give you the best compromise of improving handling, yet not interfering with acceleration too much, if at all (as long as the plus one size wheel/tire combo is at least 10% lighter).
06-23-2004, 10:41 PM
#17
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 34
Hey guys, some people don't get the whole "rotational mass" argument, so let's try a little analogy so the rocks can understand the concept easier.... 
Take a sledge hammer, hold it just below the head, handle out, and swing it in an arc. Kinda tough...
Take that same sledge hammer, hold it at the end of the handle, and swing it in an arc. ALOT tougher!
Same sledge hammer, same weight, different effort required. The difference, my freinds, is rotational mass.
Now to really blow your minds: take a 1 lb. hammer tied to the end of a 100 ft rope. Which is harder to get rotating now?
BTW, to piggyback on the compromises the car designers have to make, why do you think they stick crappy RE92 tires on these cars or put on restrictive exhaust systems instead of setting them up like they "should" be from the factory?
Take a sledge hammer, hold it just below the head, handle out, and swing it in an arc. Kinda tough...
Take that same sledge hammer, hold it at the end of the handle, and swing it in an arc. ALOT tougher!
Same sledge hammer, same weight, different effort required. The difference, my freinds, is rotational mass.
Now to really blow your minds: take a 1 lb. hammer tied to the end of a 100 ft rope. Which is harder to get rotating now?
BTW, to piggyback on the compromises the car designers have to make, why do you think they stick crappy RE92 tires on these cars or put on restrictive exhaust systems instead of setting them up like they "should" be from the factory?
06-24-2004, 10:08 AM
#18
Originally Posted by Driver72
In a word: YES!!!!
I always get a kick out of people who are trying to make their cars go fast and then they put 20" wheels or something on them.
By going from your stock sixteens (what's the width maybe 6") to the 17x8's you are doing two things:
1. Adding to the unsprung weight
2. Adding rotational mass...in mass
Oh...third thing, because you are now riding on much wider tires your contact patch to the road is greater too. This adds friction, and the more of it the more drag on the car. There's a reason why drag cars have such little itty-bitty skinny front tires. It cuts down on friction and wind resistance.
By adding those big tires, you probably just sucked out 15+ hp out of your car.
And for the naysayers who don't believe that, go to the dyno. I will also give people a piece of advice on brakes. Increasing the size of your brakes and rotors can sap power too. Even if the larger ones are lighter. The larger the diameter the greater the rotational force needed to make them roll, hence the less power that actually hits the pavement.
In a recent test of an Acura RSX-S on Speed channel, they "upgraded" the brakes with larger diameter rotors and pads, they weighed a tiny bit less though.
They lost 7 hp on the dyno after that. They tested it 9 times because they couldn't believe it. Then engineer said it was the larger diameter rotors and brakes.
I can't help but laugh at people who upsize their wheels more than "plus one" and .5 inches wider. And those knuckle-heads that put 22" wheels and such on their SUV's, wow, I can't imagine how much damage they are doing to SO MANY parts of the SUV. I would NEVER buy a used vehicle that has huge wheels on it.
Sadly, you either have to live with the performance decrease or sell the wheels and get a set of lightweight 17" that are skinner. This should offset the rotational force and friction loss and make your car perform like it used too.
I always get a kick out of people who are trying to make their cars go fast and then they put 20" wheels or something on them.
By going from your stock sixteens (what's the width maybe 6") to the 17x8's you are doing two things:
1. Adding to the unsprung weight
2. Adding rotational mass...in mass
Oh...third thing, because you are now riding on much wider tires your contact patch to the road is greater too. This adds friction, and the more of it the more drag on the car. There's a reason why drag cars have such little itty-bitty skinny front tires. It cuts down on friction and wind resistance.
By adding those big tires, you probably just sucked out 15+ hp out of your car.
And for the naysayers who don't believe that, go to the dyno. I will also give people a piece of advice on brakes. Increasing the size of your brakes and rotors can sap power too. Even if the larger ones are lighter. The larger the diameter the greater the rotational force needed to make them roll, hence the less power that actually hits the pavement.
In a recent test of an Acura RSX-S on Speed channel, they "upgraded" the brakes with larger diameter rotors and pads, they weighed a tiny bit less though.
They lost 7 hp on the dyno after that. They tested it 9 times because they couldn't believe it. Then engineer said it was the larger diameter rotors and brakes.
I can't help but laugh at people who upsize their wheels more than "plus one" and .5 inches wider. And those knuckle-heads that put 22" wheels and such on their SUV's, wow, I can't imagine how much damage they are doing to SO MANY parts of the SUV. I would NEVER buy a used vehicle that has huge wheels on it.
Sadly, you either have to live with the performance decrease or sell the wheels and get a set of lightweight 17" that are skinner. This should offset the rotational force and friction loss and make your car perform like it used too.
Wow I guess this guy knows everything about this
: issue!!!!!! ::
06-24-2004, 12:33 PM
#19
Originally Posted by slammed95
Doh! Calm down people, it's just the internet.
Basically it's like this. The only wheel that will clear my 13" brakes have to be 17"+. As long as I have the power to move the 15lb wheels, it's all good.
The other car comes with 18" magnesium wheels. They could have used 17's and still cleared the brakes. Considering the car cost as much as a few maximas, I hope the engineers put 18's on for a good reason.
Basically it's like this. The only wheel that will clear my 13" brakes have to be 17"+. As long as I have the power to move the 15lb wheels, it's all good.
The other car comes with 18" magnesium wheels. They could have used 17's and still cleared the brakes. Considering the car cost as much as a few maximas, I hope the engineers put 18's on for a good reason.
that's the bottom line. Doesn't really matter WHY, just matters that THAT's WHAT HAPPENS
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