intake
11-11-2004, 09:05 PM
#41
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by WOLF 101
dblrr900, you have some good points. 
LoL. Well, Don't get too heated or you might need a intercooler! ohhhh. no no. Ok, seriously, all I was doing by using the intercooler as an example was to show its placement and how it cools the incoming air from the turbo. And that air is more effectively cooled by the intercooler + intake being low to the ground and behind the bumper. You do have a good point that the intake's temperature difference is minimal, and I do a agree with your statement about north going for short and south long. But, the little amount of temperature would make a difference in the engine. And, as far as healthy for your engine, wasn't giving your engine the coldest air possible good for not only for performance and the engine its self? note: this is a question not a statement. And yes I am a noobe to your forum, and some one asked about intakes, I told them what I knew. Good for you for buying both of the intakes and being able to provide us with info. If I could afford both intakes I would do the same.
End statement: cold air intakes aren't for everyone. for me = good. peace.
p.s. I tried that running with the different straw lengths... but the damn things kept getting sucked into my throught... damn that hurt.
~Wolf
LoL. Well, Don't get too heated or you might need a intercooler! ohhhh. no no. Ok, seriously, all I was doing by using the intercooler as an example was to show its placement and how it cools the incoming air from the turbo. And that air is more effectively cooled by the intercooler + intake being low to the ground and behind the bumper. You do have a good point that the intake's temperature difference is minimal, and I do a agree with your statement about north going for short and south long. But, the little amount of temperature would make a difference in the engine. And, as far as healthy for your engine, wasn't giving your engine the coldest air possible good for not only for performance and the engine its self? note: this is a question not a statement. And yes I am a noobe to your forum, and some one asked about intakes, I told them what I knew. Good for you for buying both of the intakes and being able to provide us with info. If I could afford both intakes I would do the same. End statement: cold air intakes aren't for everyone. for me = good. peace.
p.s. I tried that running with the different straw lengths... but the damn things kept getting sucked into my throught... damn that hurt.
~Wolf
An intake is the opening on your engine that SUCKS IN AIR and is NOT DEPENDENT ON AIR BEING FORCED THROUGH IT. I'm sorry but the Intake/Intercooler analogy is completely worthless and is certainly not going to help your argument.
On the other hand, I'm all about some good, cold air and have been bashed on other posts for this opinion as well, as I am a newbie too, and am therefore assumed to be a complete idiot who knows absolutely nothing.
One simple fact remains true regardless of what anyone says as it is based on the laws of physics - The shorter the tube, the quicker the air will be able to enter the throttle assembly, which means more air over an equal period of time.
P.S. - We're not impressed that you went 120
11-12-2004, 06:41 AM
#45
It's chrome alright...
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,009
Sorry this is so long, but I learned some stuff last night:
cliffs: I was wrong about the speed of air in a tube. I would have been right if I had written "significant." Long v short tube doesn't matter as much as how close that length is to a resonance "spot".
---full post----
I'll back off my previous statement...I should have written "significant" difference when talking about air speed in a tube of that short length. My bad.
Back to the topic. A few engineers who deal with intakes, air filters, fluid dynamics, etc, talk. Read if you dare:
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=204172
The best part of the discussion is on page 2, but this comes up later.
Pipe length affects the resonance of the pipe, a longer pipe having a lower resonant frequency. Hence longer pipes resonate, and produce additional torque, and lower engine speeds. In theory, a shorter pipe produces more horsepower, because it produces an increase in torque at a higher RPM. In practice, peak power is obtained when the intake is tuned to the speed at which peak HP is produced.
That and the thread above say the length of the tube really doesn't matter as much as how well that length was tested and tuned to the engine. A short tube might be complete crap and a long tube might make your engine crank, but change the length of either tube a few inches and you change the resonance and ruin everything.
So now we have to ask ourselves,
1. who did better/more testing to find a tube that more closely matches the resonance, franken or injen? How many dynos did each "company" do when figuring out how to size the pipe? What were the results of ALL of the dynos? I'd like to see tests where the length of the tube made the power crap out as well as the tests where it gained.
2. using a cone/barrel filter, would sliding the filter up/down the end of the intake tube make a difference in resonance length? Some people say their injen lost power, others say it gained...would it matter how far they pushed the filter onto the end of the tube? Or would it matter how closely they mated up the pipes inside the connectors? Leaving the tubes an inch apart would add 3" overall to the length of the pipe...might that mean they hit a sour spot in the resonance?
Discuss.
cliffs: I was wrong about the speed of air in a tube. I would have been right if I had written "significant." Long v short tube doesn't matter as much as how close that length is to a resonance "spot".
---full post----
Originally Posted by Stevoreno007
One simple fact remains true regardless of what anyone says as it is based on the laws of physics - The shorter the tube, the quicker the air will be able to enter the throttle assembly, which means more air over an equal period of time.
Back to the topic. A few engineers who deal with intakes, air filters, fluid dynamics, etc, talk. Read if you dare:
http://forums.s2ki.com/forums/index....owtopic=204172
The best part of the discussion is on page 2, but this comes up later.
Pipe length affects the resonance of the pipe, a longer pipe having a lower resonant frequency. Hence longer pipes resonate, and produce additional torque, and lower engine speeds. In theory, a shorter pipe produces more horsepower, because it produces an increase in torque at a higher RPM. In practice, peak power is obtained when the intake is tuned to the speed at which peak HP is produced.
That and the thread above say the length of the tube really doesn't matter as much as how well that length was tested and tuned to the engine. A short tube might be complete crap and a long tube might make your engine crank, but change the length of either tube a few inches and you change the resonance and ruin everything.
So now we have to ask ourselves,
1. who did better/more testing to find a tube that more closely matches the resonance, franken or injen? How many dynos did each "company" do when figuring out how to size the pipe? What were the results of ALL of the dynos? I'd like to see tests where the length of the tube made the power crap out as well as the tests where it gained.
2. using a cone/barrel filter, would sliding the filter up/down the end of the intake tube make a difference in resonance length? Some people say their injen lost power, others say it gained...would it matter how far they pushed the filter onto the end of the tube? Or would it matter how closely they mated up the pipes inside the connectors? Leaving the tubes an inch apart would add 3" overall to the length of the pipe...might that mean they hit a sour spot in the resonance?
Discuss.
11-12-2004, 06:49 AM
#46
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,489
You are actually on track with that. There is a lot that goes into the engineering of all of this. I dont think either company... nor any general intake company out there, tests and tunes. They find a spot the filter can sit, run a pipe to is and sell it as a product. We can all agree on that.
Now a ferrari company that makes an intake..... well, you better believe they are using science for that intake design.
As for intake length and cones... well when I dynoed with the intake, we ran the first run with my K&N off because I thought it was too dirty. The car pulled like 216 at the wheels. Ran again and 217. We put on the filter just to see if it would decrease the power.... well, that is when we hit 224. So the filter and the length are all very inportant. Unfortunately with our cars, there is not a ton of room to find the optimal position for that filter and the tube length, so I think we are stuck with the berk/franken or a sudo CAI.
Again, a simple mis-communication that just got out of line.
Now a ferrari company that makes an intake..... well, you better believe they are using science for that intake design.
As for intake length and cones... well when I dynoed with the intake, we ran the first run with my K&N off because I thought it was too dirty. The car pulled like 216 at the wheels. Ran again and 217. We put on the filter just to see if it would decrease the power.... well, that is when we hit 224. So the filter and the length are all very inportant. Unfortunately with our cars, there is not a ton of room to find the optimal position for that filter and the tube length, so I think we are stuck with the berk/franken or a sudo CAI.
Again, a simple mis-communication that just got out of line.
11-12-2004, 07:03 AM
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West Henrietta, NY
Posts: 831
I am willing to part with my PR CAI attachment and Monsterflow filter if somebody is looking for the ONLY TRUE CAI. I will be moving up to NY again in May and I wont be using it anymore. It is 6 months old.
Email mdloops83@hotmail.com if interested.
Mark
Email mdloops83@hotmail.com if interested.
Mark
11-12-2004, 09:46 AM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by WOLF 101
Man, I must admit, I love drama. 
Ok, here goes: Cold air intakes are better for your engine because they provide cold air! Cold air for you engine means happy engine.
~Wolf
Ok, here goes: Cold air intakes are better for your engine because they provide cold air! Cold air for you engine means happy engine. ~Wolf
a cold air intake for the maxima.
11-12-2004, 10:07 AM
#49
It's chrome alright...
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,009
Originally Posted by ihavea5spd
okm, but i thought you had an injen.?.?.? injen doesn't make a cold air intake for the maxima.
It's not a "true" CAI, but it's as close as you're going to get without cutting your car.
11-12-2004, 10:14 AM
#50
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,489
Umm yeah. We are all very hot headed in here and you don't want to stir the soup anymore.... 
We all agreed that it was not a true CAI as well as agreed that all intakes for our car are crap when comparing the pure physics of it all. Please don't jump on someone for earlier comments that have now all been rectified.
Reading the whole post will help keep people from going for your juggular.
We all agreed that it was not a true CAI as well as agreed that all intakes for our car are crap when comparing the pure physics of it all. Please don't jump on someone for earlier comments that have now all been rectified.
Reading the whole post will help keep people from going for your juggular.
11-12-2004, 10:17 AM
#51
Originally Posted by ihavea5spd
okm, but i thought you had an injen.?.?.? injen doesn't make
a cold air intake for the maxima.
a cold air intake for the maxima.
11-12-2004, 12:16 PM
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,554
How is the air inside your engine bay any less hot or less humid than the air under your engine bay? Why does injen do anything different in the fall/winter/colder weather?
Heated air tends to have less density then colder air, it will rise. That's why a basement is usually cold.
Weather changes, so does the outside temperature. If your pulling air from outside the engine area, it will be much colder then the area inside the engine bay. There is LESS of a difference in summer months. There is a good reason car runs beter in colder weather.
The Length of the intake pipe does matter. Since the velocity is dependant on the time to travel, as well as the distance it travelled, for air to be the same velocity in a short ram, vs long tube (CAI) intake, it must be travelling in a shorter amount of time. Does that make sense? That means the time it took to have a certain velocity in the short ram, is much less then that of the long one. Try taking a straw, drinking soda... then cutting it. Does it allow you to drink faster? You are displacing the same fluid.. but at a quicker rate now. Now if you could, imagine if you changed the diamater of the straw itself. (Bernoulii's law)
Also, another effect is the whistle sound, and a more defined growl... Deeper growl has to do with the fact the longer tube allows the sound to travel and the metal in the pipe will dampen the moving air and allow you to hear more of what happens. You will hear the resonance. It's a weird sound i think... different. A shorter intake won't have the same tone.
The effect of the intake (INJEN, whichi own atm) is to basiclly take away power down low, and sort of bring it back up top. It's for show, and adds a pleasant sound.. To the extent it takes away your low end, isnt really siginificant unless you race alot, or really care. The injen is prettier, there is your difference.Everything i said is basic physics ... That's also disregarding alot of other effects, which are probablly not obvious, but also sorta neglibile.
The length of the tube makes the biggest effect. If you had something actually freezing the air, or speeding it up, that would make a true difference.
CAI, wether true or not, is pretty much a gimmick. So is ram air.
An intake is an almost neglibile mod, it would make some difference if u did everything in the long run, individually though, a 300 vs 100 intake has little to know distinction in peformance. I mean.. it's almost like adding a piece of carbon fiber to your car, the significance is ony visual to me.
Heated air tends to have less density then colder air, it will rise. That's why a basement is usually cold.
Weather changes, so does the outside temperature. If your pulling air from outside the engine area, it will be much colder then the area inside the engine bay. There is LESS of a difference in summer months. There is a good reason car runs beter in colder weather.
The Length of the intake pipe does matter. Since the velocity is dependant on the time to travel, as well as the distance it travelled, for air to be the same velocity in a short ram, vs long tube (CAI) intake, it must be travelling in a shorter amount of time. Does that make sense? That means the time it took to have a certain velocity in the short ram, is much less then that of the long one. Try taking a straw, drinking soda... then cutting it. Does it allow you to drink faster? You are displacing the same fluid.. but at a quicker rate now. Now if you could, imagine if you changed the diamater of the straw itself. (Bernoulii's law)
Also, another effect is the whistle sound, and a more defined growl... Deeper growl has to do with the fact the longer tube allows the sound to travel and the metal in the pipe will dampen the moving air and allow you to hear more of what happens. You will hear the resonance. It's a weird sound i think... different. A shorter intake won't have the same tone.
The effect of the intake (INJEN, whichi own atm) is to basiclly take away power down low, and sort of bring it back up top. It's for show, and adds a pleasant sound.. To the extent it takes away your low end, isnt really siginificant unless you race alot, or really care. The injen is prettier, there is your difference.Everything i said is basic physics ... That's also disregarding alot of other effects, which are probablly not obvious, but also sorta neglibile.
The length of the tube makes the biggest effect. If you had something actually freezing the air, or speeding it up, that would make a true difference.
CAI, wether true or not, is pretty much a gimmick. So is ram air.
An intake is an almost neglibile mod, it would make some difference if u did everything in the long run, individually though, a 300 vs 100 intake has little to know distinction in peformance. I mean.. it's almost like adding a piece of carbon fiber to your car, the significance is ony visual to me.
11-14-2004, 12:12 PM
#55
It's chrome alright...
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,009
Originally Posted by mjg
The Length of the intake pipe does matter. Since the velocity is dependant on the time to travel, as well as the distance it travelled, for air to be the same velocity in a short ram, vs long tube (CAI) intake, it must be travelling in a shorter amount of time.
Did you read my post?
In theory, a shorter pipe produces more horsepower, because it produces an increase in torque at a higher RPM. In practice, peak power is obtained when the intake is tuned to the speed at which peak HP is produced.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
maxima297
4th Generation Maxima (1995-1999)
4
09-30-2015 03:32 PM