bioyuki

allright stevepake,
but you never really answered my question. anyways, lets consider a TL-S with conservative mods. We agree on 200hp at the wheels. with comptech headers, the TL-S gains 20-25hp at the wheels (this is very conservative). with a AEM/Xephyr CAI, a TL-S gains maybe 3-5hp. With this we get a about a total of 225hp.

3558lb/225hp = 15.81 which is 1.02 LOWER...
hmmmmm...i guess the whole mod thing isn't very accurate so lets move onto the stock issue.

the stock MaxSE is 17.77
the TL-S is 17.79
The CL-S is 17.55

these numbers are close enough that the whole weight/hp issue is not very important. what is important is that a stock TL-S will beat a stock MaxSE (going on the fact that the TL-S is using SportShift and both are competent drivers). of course a TL-S can beat a Max with mods and vice versa so the whole point of this thread is moot.

stevepake

FINALLY...this is what I like. An INTELLIGENT technical conversation about different cars!!!

Hmm...I'll just have to take your word for these gains here, especially on those headers. Does anybody on the TL-S or CL-S forum have a dyno chart on those? It'd be neat to take a look at them.

Quote:

3558lb/225hp = 15.81 which is 1.02 LOWER...
hmmmmm...i guess the whole mod thing isn't very accurate so lets move onto the stock issue.

Yeah, that's right! LOWER IS BETTER With a lower "pounds per horsepower" number that means that each horsepower is burdened with LESS weight, which will give you more performance. So 15.81 lb/HP will haul some butt.

That's true, but change "will beat" to "can beat". My whole point in posting all of those numbers was to show that the stock vs. stock performance was very even. The stock Max stick shift would have a slight advantage in terms of whp-weight ratio, but would have to be PERFECT to realize 100% of the performance potential of their car as compared to the TL-S driver who merely has to put their foot down and let the auto tranny take care of shifting.

It's much easier to drive an auto tranny car to its full potential than a manual tranny car.

A stock TL-S can beat a stock Max SE stick, but a good stock Max SE stick driver can also beat a TL-S.

The cars are almost DEAD EVEN.

bioyuki

hmm stevepake, not to be biased (oh wait i own a TL-S ) i still think the TL-S is faster stock (0-60 at least). Going by magazines (not really accurate but neither is user submitted times) Motor Trend states 0-60 for TL-S @ 6.28 and the 1/4 14.72@97.6. For the MaximaSE 0-60@6.7 and 1/4 15.1@94.4. In the 0-60 race, the TL-S has the lead by a rather large margin. As for driving an automatic is easier, the TL-S does have a sportshift (now only if it would hold first gear ). Based on user submitted times on the TL forum, people using SS did get faster times vs using the Automatic. IMO if you gave the MaxSE and the TL-S to a professional grade driver the TL-S will consistently turn in faster times (prob by at least .3). Now give both cars to a regular driver and it can be anybody's game...

bioyuki

sorry bout the 'changing' times...i kept modifying and flubbing it up everytime....

stevepake

Hmmmm...well I wouldn't be too sure about that. It's best not to go with just a SINGLE mag because mag's can be very biased based on advertising revenue they receive from companies like Acura

I think 6.28 is definitely a bit optimistic. If you look in http://www.autosite.com HERE you'll see a big database of info for the CL-S, which is very similar and slightly lighter, so probably a bit faster than the TL-S as well. (there's no data on autosite yet for the TL-S, unfortunately)

But most mags according to AutoSite show the CL-S (TL-S) hitting high-6's to 60mph, and low-15s ET's in the quarter.

Looking at the same site for the Maxima and just at the 00-01 5-spd models, you see about the same performance. High-6's to 60mph, and low-15s ET's.

But the data for the Max also shows that although a manual will give you better performance, it's more difficult to achieve that performance. The May 2000 issues of Motor Trend said that a 00 Max SE 5-spd would do 0-60 in 7.8s! Well hell, my Accord V6 AUTO can do that bone stock so either they had a bummed Max, or their driver sucked, or they weren't receiving enough advertising dollars from Nissan at the time so they put their huge 300lb test driver in the cars to "slow down the numbers" a bit - hehehe.

Mags will all give you different times for the same car. But if you look at a database of ALL of them and then throw out the outliers and do an average you can get a pretty good picture of the performance of the car. That 6.28 number you quoted for the TL-S is definitely an outlier and probably not statistically significant, given that every other mag showed the TL-S doing high-6's and not low-6's to 60mph

I'll have to agree to disagree here. They both have almost IDENTICAL whp-to-weight ratios, and they both have 5 gears that are going to give you about identical performance. Your assumption is based on that 6.28 number, but I think it's fair to throw that one out as an outlier. It may or may not have happened legitimately, but then why did every other mag testing the lighter CL-S only manage high-6's.

I think the performance is about dead even, no matter who you stick in the car. And both cars have very good aftermarket support as well for even more performance

stevepake

that's aight...I had your quote quoted the whole time anyways...hehe

As for the Motor Trend times, I think it's safe to say that they're a bit optimistic.

For the CL-S times, every other mag (C&D, R&T, AutoWeek) was testing them at high-6's to 60 and low-15 ET's pretty consistently, but MT somehow got low-6's and high-14's



And now for the TL-S, which should have ALMOST IDENTICAL times to the CL-S because the drivetrain is the same and the only difference is a couple more pounds of weight on the TL, Motor Trend is showing the same "fast" trend.

Once other mags have had a chance to test the TL-S I think you'll see the same trend of high-6's and low-15's, just like the CL-S in about every other mag.

I haven't picked up a Motor Trend in awhile (AutoSite.com is great!!!!) but are there a lot of Acura adds in there?? Mags can be VERY biased at times, and Motor Trend isn't excluded from that.

And just to show that I'm not just calling out Acura's here on Motor Trend, Motor Trend also recently tested a 2001 Accord V6 Coupe and said it ran a 15.6 ET.

Well, every other mag is testing them in the high-15's/low-16's, and most guys that make runs at the track bone stock get about that too. One of our V6'ers that goes to the track a lot is getting 15.44 with I/H/P/Plugs and that's with PERFECT launches. I don't believe that 15.6 bone stock time on that Accord V6 Coupe for a second and I throw that out as an outlier as well. I believe what most guys and mags test out their stock Accord V6's as getting high-15's/low-16's stock, and mid-15's modded, and low-15's SERIOUSLY modded without NOS or FI.

Whenever somebody quotes that 15.6 time from MT on the SHO Accord V6 board I say it's inaccurate because it probably is, and most guys that go to the track agree with me also

stevepake

This is from another thread HERE but UMD_MaxSE summed it up very nicely, and he also has 3 godzillion posts so I think he's pretty reputable.

Those 0-60 times match up with the mags and guys here, but high-14's would put the Max 5-spd ahead of the TL-S in longer races. I've read of guys here getting high-14's bone stock with timeslips to prove it. What have guys at the TL-S forum been getting??

ColgateU

Motor Trends time of 6.28 to 60 for the TL-S is definitely not an "outlier" because the most recent issue of Car and Driver has the TL-S running 0-60 in 6.2 seconds. That's 2 major magazines publishing similar times, I THINK THAT'S STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT. BTW, I have never seen any maxima 5 speed running better than a 6.6 sec 0-60 stock in any major magazines which has PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS.

Honest truth: My best friend has a new 5 gen black maxima SE auto and we raced from a dead stop to 100 MPH. I literally beat him by at least 7 carlengths, maybe more. It really was not a close race.

A final note: I have a lot of respect for the maxima and I am not someone who is trying to come here and flame on you guys.

RAdams

I'm a new TL owner here, but you don't have to worry about flames with me. I prefer to address issues in a civilized manner and will only respond to those who return the courtesy. I'm not going to go back and quote the exact posts from any of the *7* pages that this thread has reached, so you'll have to read the thread if you want to follow along since I'll be jumping around a bit here. Now, with that having been said, let me add some information:

The Comptech header has been dyno tested to add up to 30whp to a TL-S/CL-S. I have one on my TL (non Type-S) and I feel a dramatic difference, though I've not had it dyno'd. I seem to recall reading it added somewhere in the neighborhood of 16-18whp, which sounds reasonable enough. If you've ever seen the awful exhaust manifold on a TL/CL, especially the 180-degree bend where the front and rear cylinder bank piping meets, you'll see why the Comptech header adds so much power (that along with the nicer primary tubing).

As far as racing a 5-speed manual versus a 5-speed automatic... the manual transmission is going to make up for even a moderate power deficit. I don't know how much horsepower the Altima I rented in 1999 had, but my friend beat me from 30-115 in his mom's 1998 Civic DX with a stick. This isn't intended to be a Honda versus Nissan jab... just using this as an example since I have firsthand knowledge. Manual transmissions tend to be more aggressively geared than their automatic counterparts. You can also make up a lot of ground with a perfectly executed powershift. (As I was typing about the Altima... I remembered that I took this pichttp://ron.b16a.com/pics/KA24DE%20power.jpg

At any rate... the automatic in the TL/CL/TL-S/CL-S is geared, well, for lazy-RPM economy. 4th and 5th are both overdrive. In fact, 5th is a Buick-like 0.470:1! Redline (6300) in 3rd gear of my TL equates to 100MPH (indicated). Of course I could use SportShift (or row it manually) to hold it until the rev limiter (6600), but the point remains. Even a -S, after it hits redline (6900) and grabs 4th will be less than stellar. Anywhere after 3rd gear the TL/TL-S is fighting an uphill battle in an overdrive gear.

Also... comparisons between "lightly modded" cars versus other "lightly modded" cars are hardly a benchmark on which to compare the relative performance of the 2 vehicles when stock. I know what mods add the most power to the TL/TL-S and you guys obviously know what mods are better for the Maxima. I consider my header and AEM intake "light mods" but the guy next to me in the stock Maxima might think I'm an animal. The point is it's all relative.

Hmm... what else did I want to touch on?

AHhh.. yes. Price.

Obviously it's beyond ignorant to say the owner of xxx can't afford a yyy and that's why they bash it. However, I've seen a lot of Maxima people turn it around and say that TL owners overpaid compared to their Maxima. I offer this: The TL is a different class of car. I'm not being high-and-mighty.. just staing the facts. It's marketed to a different demographic and it clearly has a different purpose. It's just like spending the extra dough to get an I30 instead of a Maxima. There's certainly value added there... or else Nissan wouldn't move a single I30. The fact is that the TL has several features that you can't get on a Maxima... which is fine... it all depends on what you value. 0-60 times, quarter-mile performance and autocross prowess are not the only measures of a car's performance. There's also depreciation and resale value, reliability, how well paint/interior & exterior trim hold up, warranty, etc. I think both TL and Maxima owners should keep this in mind.

For me... I think my $28,000 was well spent. I got the best car in its class, bar none. If I was in the market for a low $20k's sedan, the Maxima would garner a SERIOUS look from me. The performance is unbeatable at that price point and it represents a refreshing change from the "me too" offerings from some of the other automakers in that segment.

My point...

I hope everyone reading this understands the diplomacy with which I authored it... LOTS of people need to lighten up. That goes for Maxima and TL people. Stuff like this happens every once in a while between "rival" car enthusiasts and it accomplishes nothing... it's just a ****ing match.

stevepake

Well this is real curious, then....

If most mags are testing the ligher CL-S with the SAME 260HP J32A2 engine and the SAME SportShift tranny, then how is it that the CL-S is getting high-6's to 60 and the TL-S is getting low-6's???



If you can answer me that then you're golden! Are you sure these low-6 times aren't preview tests for the 6-spd manual coming to the TL-S and CL-S??? I could believe a low-6 if that were so.

Well yeah, I could believe that. But we were comparing in the thread the Max SE 5-spd and not the automagic. The SE 5-spd has an almost identical whp-weight ratio as the TL-S stock vs stock. The SE auto is behind that a bit though, so I could believe you beating one of those, especially if your friend with the Max wasn't power shifting.

Just don't be like "BITIUM" from Acura-TL.com, or some of the retards that stop over here from Acura-CL.com and you're definitely cool with me!

stevepake

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...for posting a civilized, diplomatic, and most of all INTELLIGENT post.

I wish all TL-S owners could be like you, and especially the ones that visit this forum.

And if I were in the market for a high-20's/low-30's entry luxury sedan, the TL/TL-S would have been one of my top choices as well

radpp16

This Friday(less than 48 hours) i get my car back from the autobody, 2 new door shells with 3 stage paing job, at least one half of the car will look good,

ANyway...I am dying to race with a Acura Type S, there is so much "Beef", i gotta know if its true for myself:that a 2k max can take out a Type S.

Personnally i think the Acura would win, doesn't it have like 260HP and better handling(stock)?

Roger

ColgateU

Well, im not imature and i like to have intelligent conversations instead of childish garbage postings back and forth. Anyways, my theory about why the TL-S continues to record better times than the CL-S is the difference in rims between the TL-S and CL-S. The TL-S rims are slightly lighter than those of the CL-S and that would definitely result in stronger acceleration.
The Type S engine is an extremely strong engine with a torque curve just about as flat as they come. And the engine note when the VTEC hits at 4800 RPM and goes to the 7000 RPM redline must be heard to be believed.
Personally, I can't wait to encounter a 5-speed maxima at a stoplight. I'm sure it will be a fun race.
Just a note on how stong the Type S 5 speed auto is: In the sportshift mode, I can chirp second gear evertime.

bioyuki

Hmmm, sorry i was away putting up miniblinds (thank god for the trunk pass through). Anyways I just wanted to point out the torque difference between these two cars. TL-S 232@3500 and the MaxSE 217@4000. This probably should be figured in with the weight/hp ratio also. As for the whole TL faster than the CL issue, this has been debated to death over on the TL/CL boards. Either Acura is shoving more money at the magazines or there is some 'magical' combination of differences between the TL and the CL. Even though they share the same engine and tranny (plus the CL is lighter!) there are some differences between the two. Of course when the CL gets a 6 speed manual the game will be changed.

Here are the TL-S Ratios
1st - 2.563
2nd - 1.551
3rd - 1.021
4th - 0.653
5th - 0.470
Reverse - 1.846
Final Drive - 4.428

Can't find the MaxSE ratios...anyone care to post them?

Here is a msg posted on the TL forum awhile ago by PeterUbers on what would happen if the TL/CL got a 6speed manual (all prediction of course but informative) Stevepake, I think this will answer all your questions:

""Thanks for the nod, I hope I can answer w/ what I've learned over the past few months about the differences b/w manuals and autos. I imagine the difference will be similar to the difference b/w the auto Nissan Maxima (boring) and the manual Max (now this is something to talk about). 0-60mph on the manual is reported as low as 6.3 and the auto is always 8.0 to 8.1 seconds. Pretty stunning difference, however this is the diff. between a 4-spd auto (ultra-boring) and a 5-spd.

The difference will be dramatic, and I'll estimate as much as a 5.8 0-60mph time and a high-13 to low-14 1/4 mile time. The reason is pretty straight-forward:

1.) Gears 1 thru 3 will be much shorter -- if it's a six-speed, they are usually close-ratio -- 5th and 6th gears are your overdrive gears, and generally will not be as "tall" as the 4th and 5th gears in our TL-S's. The reasoning behind the TL-S' tall 4th and 5th gear is well.. marketing -- they're selling this car to an older age group, no need for their market segment to pull all the way up to the top speed .. what is it.. 147 mph???

Since this car will be market to a younger buying segment -- as are most manual trannied sedans -- it'll be reasonable to guess that this car's 6 spd will pull all the way up to 147 w/o "dying" at 5th. Check this out for comparison -- since the gearing of the new RSX isn't out yet, let's look at the NSX's manual gear box:

1st 3.066:1 **Note how consisent the drop
2nd 1.956:1 in ratio is ... very smooth
3rd 1.428:1 which is indicative of this
4th 1.125:1 car pulling consistently
5th 0.914:1 thru to its top speed**
6th 0.717:1

Also note how short 1st gear is!!

Let's revisit our TL-S:

1st - 2.563
2nd - 1.551
3rd - 1.021 ** note the difference? **
4th - 0.653 Just look at 1 -> 3,
5th - 0.470 and you'll see that there
is a wider spacing --
the engine has to labor
harder thru each gear (dies at 4th), whereas the 6-spd allows a quicker acceleration to
peak torque where you are in your 3500-5500 rpm broad, flat torque band -- then post-5500 you're in VTEC (actually VTEC opens earlier than 5500). When you launch at 4000 rpms, you're already in your power band, you pop the clutch and you're off (w/ good rubber up front -- you'll toast an auto TL-S). But, you have to be pretty slick at the manual if you want to take advantage of the 6-speed -- you need really quick, crisp shifts, and it wouldn't hurt to add a short-shift kit to the TL-S. If you power-shift (i.e. don't let-off the gas while engaging and disengaging the clutch thru shifts) .. heheh.. the TL-S 6-spd will smoke most cars on the road .. MOST.

The NSX engine is very similar to the TL-S in terms of design (certainly not in terms of materials used to produce both) .. The NSX 3.0 engine produces 252 hp at 6600 rpm -- very similar to the TL-S' 260 @ 6900 The NSX 3.0 also produces 210 lb-ft of torque at 5300 rpm, again, very similar to the TL-S. However, this beast only weighs 3100 lbs, and it's RWD. There is also a 3.2L version producing 290 hp and 224 lb-ft of torque.

But you can see the difference the six-speed box makes -- plus couple w/ that the fact that you can launch at high rpms (w/o the fear of overheating the torque converter) -- hell you can launch in the VTEC zone (4500?) and then consistently, and STRONGLY pull to 147 mph.. when the engine should govern your speed. Our auto problem is that we have to "wind up" to our peak torque .. in the manual, launching high, you'll already be there.

The intrinsic ailment of the TL-S will always still be the FWD aspect -- launch an TL-S RWD in VTEC .. and then a TL-S FWD in VTEC -- the RWD will launch much harder w/ less loss of traction for reasons we all have come to know very well.

As far as giving the S4 a run for its money? Not exactly, because you can launch an S4 at 5000 rpm.. or higher (as do most people w/ AWD systems .. i.e. Suburu WRX owners) and you will only hear a "chirp." . and the S4 will be off w/ AWD traction! We'll still be peeling out. However, a 5 mph - 1/4 mile dash should be pretty neck-and-neck. I'd love to hear more people's opinions of the 6spd -- thanks for the invite to comment!""

ColgateU

And yes, Car and Driver's July issue 0-60 in 6.2 seconds for the TL Type S is for the AUTO.

stevepake

HALF SECOND FASTER RIMS??? Err...I don't think so. I think the auto mags getting shoved with massive amounts of money is much more likely

Umm, I think the Maxima has a much flatter torque curve with tons more torque just off of idle. The J30A1 is quite gutless off the line until you hit about 2700rpm and then it really picks up after the 3500rpm VTEC engagement point with peak torque at 4700rpm. The J32A1 (TL) and J32A2 (TL-S) engines are both based on the J30A1 and will have similar low-end characteristics (or lack thereof ) of the J30A1. You guys might have a slightly shorter 1st gear than the Accord V6, though, so the lack of low-end might not be as noticeable with the SportShift. Hmm...you're right though about the J32A2 having an earlier peak torque. I wonder how they did that?? Must be part of the dual-stage induction system.

Well, there's a difference between low-end torque and where and how low the peak-torque of an engine occurs. You can't determine torque right off of idle by looking at where the peak torque of an engine is.

The J32 engines might actually have MORE torque right off of idle than the 3.0L VQ Max engine, but the Acura's are still burdened with much more weight...

hahaha! Well I can do the same thing in my Accord V6 if I put some high-performance ATF in it

AznWontonboy

hey acura fruit cakes, if u really want some, then come race us. its that simple. stop ur talk, and race someone.

AznWontonboy

i had a feeling this thread was gonna get invaded by them whiners. Everytime we say something about burnin a type s, they go crazy. go whine to ur moms.

bioyuki

Aznwontonboy--

Sure you can race. In your sig you state that your MaxSE has not mods. If a TL-S/CL-S has any kind of performence mod (excluding exhaust and filter) it will EASILY beat you and your car...stock to stock will be a good race....

AznWontonboy

well
if i had mods i would easily beat you. so wuts ur point again i forgot.

stevepake

Thanks for the tranny info on the TL-S's. I heard the gearing in them was real econo-minded but never did I believe it was THAT BAD!!! Sheesh!!! I think Acura could have done a MUCH better job on gearing for the Type-S in the least case!

hehe, but when you launch those S4's like that you end up breaking things like clutches, other tranny components, and motor mounts, and then the S4 owners get screwed because Audi won't honor the warranty on that stuff because they know the car has been abused!

bioyuki

Stevepake--

Doesn't Audi unconditionally replace everything and service everything for the length of the warranty? I remember reading on the TL board that somebody killed their clutch and they got a new one. Plus things like windshield wiper fluid/air filters/brake pads they replace for free. Wish Acura would take care of me like that...

Aznwontonboy--

My point is: You can race a TL-S but most likely you'll lose

stevepake

That's not what I've heard. Most manufacturers will honor warranty claims as long as you haven't been abusing the car. And when you're dropping the clutch in an S4 from 5000rpm at full boost that's DEFINITELY considered abuse.

The transmissions in those cars are designed to handle upwards of 800 lb-ft of torque of continuous loading, but side-stepping the clutch from 5k and full-boost (and sometimes even chipped, too) will create an impulse in your drivetrain so damn large that you can in fact end up breaking damn motor mounts and blowing other things up too.

That's abuse, and Audi won't cover that sh*t and some S4 owners are getting massive repair bills because of this.

ColgateU

Hey Stevepake,

I have a question for you. Now you have an Accord, which is pretty much a cheap, more affordable TL (forget TL-S). And you keep trying to put down the TL-S. Do you have some insecurities or what?

yongjun

whatever.
tl-s sux maximas sux.
in fact every car sucks.
if you can get a f*cking car to go 0 to 60 in no seconds then call me.
Till then cars are cars.
Race them if ya have them.
you win a few you loose a few.
for what a maxima costs and what a tl-s costs don't you think a maxima is a wiser buy?!?
just my f*cking 2 cents

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Nope. He lives in the real world and has a realistic view about his car. The Accord is a nice car but is not the best. The maxima is a nice car but is not the best. The TL and TL-S are not cars but again, are not the best. I wish others were as levelheaded as him. Instead we have guys bragging about how many tickets they got in one year and how reckless they drive.

stevepake

I bought an Accord V6 because I wanted something nice like a 3.2TL but I realized that the Accord V6 was a better value, about as nice, and that the 3.2TL wasn't worth the extra money. Heck, the 2k1 TL didn't even have a 6-disc CD changer standard, but the 2k1 Accord EX V6 did. Acura "fixed" that little issue on the 2k2 TL's, though

How am I putting down the TL-S? I think it's a great car.



I'm not even going to reply to a retard comment like this If you'd like to have an intelligent technical conversation then fine, but otherwise head back to your TL cave.

Thanks.

PhatGuy

I read the first page and then saw there are 7 pages of msg to go...and laughed! Not even going to bother reading it must have been crazy though! Still going too! Anyone want a cookie?

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

Sounds like a good stopping point now. We'll let Steve get the last word.